Modifié par pallascedar, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:25 .
Male on Male Romance for Hawke (updated - S/S romances confirmed)
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Saibh
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#1926
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:24
pallascedar
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While there are plenty of constructive ways to discuss how Bioware could be more proactive in all-inclusive romances in future games, or how DA2 could better implement these, it isn't really constructive to discuss how a completely different Bioware team did or didn't include romances for people of all orientations. Let's look towards the future rather than focusing on how games in the past didn't do so well in the whole S/S romance department. Though I guess talking civilly about them is no problem...
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#1927
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:25
AlexXIV
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Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...
A FemShep can romance Kelly, right? Never tried it so I'm not for sure, but I believe I heard they can.
If so....uh....why did they do that.
Because they figured people would like that. I for one can't relate since in all my playthroughs I never romanced anyone aside from Liara. I mean, she's blue. How could I resist that?
#1928
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:25
Ninja Mage
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I was so angry over the whole thing I returned Mass Effect 2 to Gamestop after I beat it. Totally left a bad taste in my mouth. It was pandering and you could tell there was something missing from the game.
#1929
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:25
Ziggeh
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Indeed, we can argue about ME till the proverbial cows finally get in, but we're on the wrong forum for any kind of resolution.kalassy wrote...
however, this isn't about ME.
#1930
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:27
Ninja Mage
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But once agian I do appreciate the same sex content Gaider and I'm glad you always push for it to be included. Even if there's only one m/m option I will be grateful
Modifié par Ninja Mage, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:28 .
#1931
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:28
AlexXIV
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Ninja Mage wrote...
I was so angry over the whole thing I returned Mass Effect 2 to Gamestop after I beat it. Totally left a bad taste in my mouth. It was pandering and you could tell there was something missing from the game.
Sry but romances or romance options shouldn't be a reason to buy a game. I liked all Bioware games so far and liked most of their romances but I would have bought them even without the romances.
#1932
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:31
Ninja Mage
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AlexXIV wrote...
Ninja Mage wrote...
I was so angry over the whole thing I returned Mass Effect 2 to Gamestop after I beat it. Totally left a bad taste in my mouth. It was pandering and you could tell there was something missing from the game.
Sry but romances or romance options shouldn't be a reason to buy a game. I liked all Bioware games so far and liked most of their romances but I would have bought them even without the romances.
Honestly, I don't believe you. Romances heighten the game experience, and further connect you to the world. Everytime Miranda bent over or Tali laughed you experience something special in the game. I didn't get that AT ALL. So yes, romance and characterization is a reason I buy rpgs, and for you to suggest otherwise is frankly insulting. I buy a game for everything that is supposed to be included, romances are icing on the cake buddy.
Modifié par Ninja Mage, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:32 .
#1933
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:33
Ziggeh
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"I was so angry I played the whole thing."Ninja Mage wrote...
I was so angry over the whole thing I returned Mass Effect 2 to Gamestop after I beat it.
I do that in resteraunts. "Waiter, this food was poorly prepared and I literally could not eat another bite."
Modifié par Ziggeh, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:33 .
#1934
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:34
upsettingshorts
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Ninja Mage wrote...
Honestly. I don't believe you. Romances highten the game experience, and further connect you to the world. Everytime Miranda bent over
I groaned.
Ninja Mage wrote...
or Tali laughed
I cringed.
Ninja Mage wrote...
I didn't get that AT ALL.
Well, in the case of the two examples you cite - you're not missing much - unless you enjoy being patronized or being creepily hit on by someone who acts like a childish adolescent.
Ninja Mage wrote...
So yes, romance and characterization is a reason I buy rpgs, and for you to suggest otherwise if frankly insulting. I buy a game for everything that is supposed to be included, romances are icing on the cake buddy.
That however is a fair point, and is basically why I support S/S romances despite having no personal interest in them whatsoever.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:36 .
#1935
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:34
Ninja Mage
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The game was good for what it was but the whole dev response to no male/male in mass effect 2 was poorly handled. Did that explain it better for you?
#1936
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:34
Thicos
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For male/male option: a big and strong man
and for female/female: cute face with big ******.
But both with big ass to swing.
and for female/female: cute face with big ******.
But both with big ass to swing.
#1937
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:41
YoziMaiden
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A big butt on a man? Hmm... Never even thought about that...
#1938
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:42
AlexXIV
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Ninja Mage wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
Ninja Mage wrote...
I was so angry over the whole thing I returned Mass Effect 2 to Gamestop after I beat it. Totally left a bad taste in my mouth. It was pandering and you could tell there was something missing from the game.
Sry but romances or romance options shouldn't be a reason to buy a game. I liked all Bioware games so far and liked most of their romances but I would have bought them even without the romances.
Honestly, I don't believe you. Romances heighten the game experience, and further connect you to the world. Everytime Miranda bent over or Tali laughed you experience something special in the game. I didn't get that AT ALL. So yes, romance and characterization is a reason I buy rpgs, and for you to suggest otherwise is frankly insulting. I buy a game for everything that is supposed to be included, romances are icing on the cake buddy.
You can believe me. I like rpgs in general and buy almost everyone with a 'decent' rating/review. Even mixtures of rpg and rts games, and you don't find romances there. Yes romances do improve depth at a point and to a certain level, but they are not essential. If you compare it to movies. Not all movies include romances, but you still watch them. I play all romances if they are in the game, don't get me wrong. Would feel sort of incomplete if I didn't. But if there are no romances it is no reason for me to say that the game sucks or whatever.
#1939
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:43
Eromenos
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I R back!
Indeed you didn't. In that instance, both straight and queer gamers were treated practically on equal footing as near as I can tell. But what I won't divert away from is the fact that when there are npc-romances they are always needlessly geared heavily in favor of straight-satisfaction as well as potential homophobic aversion against seeing self-affirming ("strong") queer people. There has never been any occasion in BioWare games where straight people are given the short end while catering simultaneously to queer people. We all know that would be wrong against straight people. Yet you think it is perfectly fine to justify marginalizing queer representation.
Vague for fairness. Oh, next there will be "life isn't fair." The latter is true, but the former is not. Fairness gets cast as vague by people who abhor the concept as an inconvenient intrusion upon undue comforts and abusive belief-systems which prop up their own elevated senses of identity and self-esteem. In BioWare's case regarding this issue, such things manifest as gushing via fans who are grateful to dine forever on crumbs as though such things were gifts to the queer community and not also colored by adherences to strict guidelines of obedience towards homophobic attitudes which command that canon queer characters need be victims or villains. Herren & Wade were good steps away from this pattern but the fact remains that the lop-sided LI issue is little abated by the presence of Herren & Wade's relationship in an after-retail DLC.
To you, fairness is an ugly word. We may all agree that fairness is impossible to achieve fully for everything we might imagine, but that does not mean it is right to dismiss the idea of pushing for it, especially from someone who wields leverage in this particular arena and who is looked upon, rightly or wrongly, as being able to effectively do some measure of good for queer visibility.
Oh, I said it. The effects of these existing queer characters DO in fact help us in some ways, even if those benefits come marred by conditions that contain our images within hurtful patterns which sustain a defeatist attitude clinging to "any and all" queer examples as if they're precious simply due to the rarity of such crumbs. Folks are too quick to glorify that minor benefit as if these things bore a primary intent all along to help our visibility on the stage. If that were truly the case, male LI would not have been segregated into one solitary option nor would it have been cast on the spare who exhibits negative outward stereotypes compared to the main-line leading male. The intent behind that choice was motivated by PR and sales. "Economics of the situation." So we're not people to BioWare, we're figures. So easy for BioWare to play with our images as convenient tokens translating into sound-bytes and screenshots to profess goodwill toward people who believe that any token is a good token.
I'm quite aware that commitment is a complex subject with Zevran regardless whether we come bearing male bits or female bits. But your focus on that does not have anything to do with my claim. I was pointing back to how he's made to express shame over coupling with male Wardens, 2 men being together. I'm not sure if there's some other line he expresses towards female Wardens in that same instance to serve a similar function in furthering his reluctance to approaching commitment, but the fact remains the line you guys chose for Zevran is needlessly offensive to queer males and even to some straight people who support queer male relationships.
Add to this the points I found myself reiterating often over the potential for having male LI being limited down to someone who is not good at affirming queer male identity, least of all in face of homophobia both in-game and IRL.
FYI to all. I do not say that Zevran and Sky are the types who need to be stricken from these games. I say that their types should not be made into the sole depictions of M/M intimacy. It is wrong to impose a huge burden of representation upon the shoulders of but one major male figure in such stories. It's even worse when said characters are bent around homophobic sensibilities, as these two were. Positive and negative dynamics are not so simple that we can afford to stop and only gush at how that their effects can fulfill some measure of positive outcome with the players who try hard to affirm love with these characters.
We need to remember that even while queer-positive people take something out of these creations, so too do the queer-hating people. None of us should ever forget that there are players who take the hard-negative view regarding queer representation. It's not enough to merely pretend as if these characters' positives outweigh the negatives which they've been more heavily-tailored to fulfill.
From our exchanges thus far, it's clear you dismiss any near-future hope of say, rendering all potential romances in a game functionally bisexual to give everybody a chance at experiencing something most of us might appreciate. Considering that your renderings of us have not even been considerate toward a necessary broad range of effects and implications they carry for us specifically, you ought to still consider this unrealized possibility as something that is worth pushing for. I know that writers don't simply hand scripts over to the rest of the project team and expect them to magically bring it all to life. Give and take occurs on both sides. Obviously DAO couldn't afford much fat. But that's not what we are. The flaw here is in thinking of us as an extravagance. You're handling our images. And this goes beyond just you, but also to the other folks here who like to see queer people as charity-cases. That's the crippling factor behind this entire issue.
David Gaider wrote...
Eromenos wrote...
So you would also claim that no one has any right to demand M/F content in these games?
Correct. We didn't include romances in Awakening, for instance, even though people wanted them.
Indeed you didn't. In that instance, both straight and queer gamers were treated practically on equal footing as near as I can tell. But what I won't divert away from is the fact that when there are npc-romances they are always needlessly geared heavily in favor of straight-satisfaction as well as potential homophobic aversion against seeing self-affirming ("strong") queer people. There has never been any occasion in BioWare games where straight people are given the short end while catering simultaneously to queer people. We all know that would be wrong against straight people. Yet you think it is perfectly fine to justify marginalizing queer representation.
And if we do include them, heterosexual romances get first priority. Why? Because they are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the majority of our audience. The amount of work we can justify doing for any content is directly related to the size of the audience that has the potential to see it. Nobody has a right to content, and while there is a certain amount of responsibility we willingly take on when we cross the line and include content which requires sensitiivity in our portrayal that does not mean the only criteria we then approach it with are vague issues of "fairness". The economics of the situation do not vanish simply because they are inconvenient for anyone with a social issue they think needs addressing.
Vague for fairness. Oh, next there will be "life isn't fair." The latter is true, but the former is not. Fairness gets cast as vague by people who abhor the concept as an inconvenient intrusion upon undue comforts and abusive belief-systems which prop up their own elevated senses of identity and self-esteem. In BioWare's case regarding this issue, such things manifest as gushing via fans who are grateful to dine forever on crumbs as though such things were gifts to the queer community and not also colored by adherences to strict guidelines of obedience towards homophobic attitudes which command that canon queer characters need be victims or villains. Herren & Wade were good steps away from this pattern but the fact remains that the lop-sided LI issue is little abated by the presence of Herren & Wade's relationship in an after-retail DLC.
To you, fairness is an ugly word. We may all agree that fairness is impossible to achieve fully for everything we might imagine, but that does not mean it is right to dismiss the idea of pushing for it, especially from someone who wields leverage in this particular arena and who is looked upon, rightly or wrongly, as being able to effectively do some measure of good for queer visibility.
Oh, I said it. The effects of these existing queer characters DO in fact help us in some ways, even if those benefits come marred by conditions that contain our images within hurtful patterns which sustain a defeatist attitude clinging to "any and all" queer examples as if they're precious simply due to the rarity of such crumbs. Folks are too quick to glorify that minor benefit as if these things bore a primary intent all along to help our visibility on the stage. If that were truly the case, male LI would not have been segregated into one solitary option nor would it have been cast on the spare who exhibits negative outward stereotypes compared to the main-line leading male. The intent behind that choice was motivated by PR and sales. "Economics of the situation." So we're not people to BioWare, we're figures. So easy for BioWare to play with our images as convenient tokens translating into sound-bytes and screenshots to profess goodwill toward people who believe that any token is a good token.
Zevran treated all relationships as casual and lacking in meaning, not just M/M relationships. You had to dig much deeper before you discovered that this was due to his background, and that getting him to actually care about you put him on what he considered uncomfortable ground. Beyond that, however, his romance was equally accessible to both male and female players.
The fact that you see him as serving a lesser role in the overall story has nothing to do with why I chose him as the bisexual romance. It does, however, evidently provide you a convenient excuse to make accusations because we didn't go as far as you think we should have.
I'm quite aware that commitment is a complex subject with Zevran regardless whether we come bearing male bits or female bits. But your focus on that does not have anything to do with my claim. I was pointing back to how he's made to express shame over coupling with male Wardens, 2 men being together. I'm not sure if there's some other line he expresses towards female Wardens in that same instance to serve a similar function in furthering his reluctance to approaching commitment, but the fact remains the line you guys chose for Zevran is needlessly offensive to queer males and even to some straight people who support queer male relationships.
Add to this the points I found myself reiterating often over the potential for having male LI being limited down to someone who is not good at affirming queer male identity, least of all in face of homophobia both in-game and IRL.
FYI to all. I do not say that Zevran and Sky are the types who need to be stricken from these games. I say that their types should not be made into the sole depictions of M/M intimacy. It is wrong to impose a huge burden of representation upon the shoulders of but one major male figure in such stories. It's even worse when said characters are bent around homophobic sensibilities, as these two were. Positive and negative dynamics are not so simple that we can afford to stop and only gush at how that their effects can fulfill some measure of positive outcome with the players who try hard to affirm love with these characters.
We need to remember that even while queer-positive people take something out of these creations, so too do the queer-hating people. None of us should ever forget that there are players who take the hard-negative view regarding queer representation. It's not enough to merely pretend as if these characters' positives outweigh the negatives which they've been more heavily-tailored to fulfill.
Really, I think I've responded to you far more than I should have. You're clearly determined to read what you want into our actions, and won't accept explanations as being anything other than excuses or oppression. As someone else above said, it's embarassing. I don't doubt we could do better, as we always can, but you seem rather determined to turn an ally into an enemy. I hope, for your sake, that you manage to take some pleasure amidst all the inevitable disappointment.
From our exchanges thus far, it's clear you dismiss any near-future hope of say, rendering all potential romances in a game functionally bisexual to give everybody a chance at experiencing something most of us might appreciate. Considering that your renderings of us have not even been considerate toward a necessary broad range of effects and implications they carry for us specifically, you ought to still consider this unrealized possibility as something that is worth pushing for. I know that writers don't simply hand scripts over to the rest of the project team and expect them to magically bring it all to life. Give and take occurs on both sides. Obviously DAO couldn't afford much fat. But that's not what we are. The flaw here is in thinking of us as an extravagance. You're handling our images. And this goes beyond just you, but also to the other folks here who like to see queer people as charity-cases. That's the crippling factor behind this entire issue.
Modifié par Eromenos, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:53 .
#1940
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:43
dzizass
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I'm not really interested in a gay romance, but I don't mind it being included, 
[inappropriate comments removed]
[inappropriate comments removed]
Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:15 .
#1941
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:44
Eternal Dust
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I wouldn't call it a romance--more like a free striptease. All that was missing was a Renegade option to stuff credits into her pants.Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...
A FemShep can romance Kelly, right? Never tried it so I'm not for sure, but I believe I heard they can.
#1942
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:49
upsettingshorts
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octoberfire wrote...
I wouldn't call it a romance--more like a free striptease. All that was missing was a Renegade option to stuff credits into her pants.
That would be a Paragon option. The Renegade one would be more... grabby.
dzizass wrote...
That was REALLY annoying about Zevran.
Your discomfort with Zevran isn't terribly compelling. I suppose a "get over it" response would be justified in this case.
#1943
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:50
Thicos
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YoziMaiden , if a man is big, then he'll probably have a big ass to be touched.
#1944
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:51
Ninja Mage
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Eromenos, you're points have already been discussed and arguing with David Gaider, the person who is advocating for us to even have Same sex content is just freakin stupid. He's not going to argue with you because you didn't like how Zevran was potrayed. It's a moot point. That Zevran was even in the game was something special. SO PLEASE, stop making up crap just to show how much you didn't like Zevran.
#1945
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 12:52
Atakuma
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Jesus, I thought this guy had left.
#1946
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 01:01
dzizass
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What???? Where was I trolling??Ninja Mage wrote...
Please don't troll or you will be reported
I'm not upset about Zevran being gay or bi. I'm upset about the low brow sense of humour. Honestly, if I was gay I'd be upset about how homosexuals are portrayed.Upsettingshorts wrote...
Your discomfort with Zevran isn't terribly compelling. I suppose a "get over it" response would be justified in this case.
Modifié par dzizass, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:05 .
#1947
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 01:02
RosaAquafire
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I'm trying to think of what sort of guy I WOULD like to see for the male/male romance, but I'm actually drawing a blank. No matter what anybody says, I think a dwarf WOULD be kinda cool, especially one like Varric. It would be unpredictable.
A lot of people don't want it being Fenris, because we already had an elf, but I don't see what that actually amounts to. I wouldn't mind it being Fenris ... but I sort of like his character better as straight, it just seems to fit.
I suspect it'll be a party member we haven't seen yet. I'm personally hoping for a mage, just because that would be REALLY interesting with Hawke's apostate stuff, but with Bethany and the rumoured Merrill, I'm sure not if we'll see another ...
A lot of people don't want it being Fenris, because we already had an elf, but I don't see what that actually amounts to. I wouldn't mind it being Fenris ... but I sort of like his character better as straight, it just seems to fit.
I suspect it'll be a party member we haven't seen yet. I'm personally hoping for a mage, just because that would be REALLY interesting with Hawke's apostate stuff, but with Bethany and the rumoured Merrill, I'm sure not if we'll see another ...
#1948
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 01:06
Collider
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Would you say that Fenris is a roguish type? Why are most of the bisexuals rogues?
#1949
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 01:07
Atakuma
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Fenris is a warrior.Collider wrote...
Would you say that Fenris is a roguish type? Why are most of the bisexuals rogues?
#1950
Posté 04 janvier 2011 - 01:07
Saibh
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Please, just ignore a conversation you don't want to happen. If no one were arguing, it would go away, I promise (which I'm guilty of too, I realize).
In any case, I'm with the folks who want to see a human warrior. I'm not sure how I want his personality to be, but I'm leaning towards a soldier type. I'm never much on choosing out personalities for my companions anyway, because asking for what I want is not necessarily the same as getting what I'll enjoy.
In any case, I'm with the folks who want to see a human warrior. I'm not sure how I want his personality to be, but I'm leaning towards a soldier type. I'm never much on choosing out personalities for my companions anyway, because asking for what I want is not necessarily the same as getting what I'll enjoy.
Modifié par Saibh, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:15 .
