2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Russalka]

I think the limit has been reached with warriors.

Modifié par Russalka, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:08 .

[Saibh]

Russalka wrote...

I think the limit has been reached with warriors.

Well, he said two of each...but maybe more, you know? Technically there were three (possibly five, if you count Dog and Shale) in DAO.

[kalassy]

[please don't quote and highlight inappropriate content]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:18 .

[Collider]

Saibh wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I think the limit has been reached with warriors.

Well, he said two of each...but maybe more, you know? Technically there were three (possibly five, if you count Dog and Shale) in DAO.

I also imagine that there would be more warriors than mages and rogues, anyway. That's what they did in DA:O - only 4 companions weren't warriors!

[Collider]

kalassy wrote...

I remember something about Zevran and foreign objects.

If I was "annoyed" by anything, it was that he made the player know that he preferred women, IIRC.

[Eromenos]

andar91 wrote...

@ Eromeos:  You don't think Sky's hesitation might have something to do with a fear of being ridiculed as gay?  I've never played that game, but that's how I would take it, and I know many gay men who would hesitate to romantically approach someone because they know they might not be gay and/or might react even violently.  It's not tiptoing around anything, it's realistic.

I agree with you that those were his fears. The fact that he was made to have those fears is my issue.

BioWare needlessly wrote in this fear of homophobia within a fictional setting that could have instead afforded to flout one terrible aspect of our own world. It doesn't help queer people to have only queer characters who are made to feel bad about themselves just because they have feelings for somebody with the same gender. This only helps the people who hate queers, via writing an npc like Sky as being so difficult to romance in M/M such that homophobic players need never accidentally fall into his M/M. So easy to get saddled with Dumb Star, yet so hard to navigate towards Sky.

I simply don't lend credit to story-decisions which endlessly serve to keep queer characters burdened by homophobic attitudes. If BioWare created a RPG either set in our world's past/present or in some closely-related AU, sure. Then there might be an excuse for it.

Something I want to mention is that during that time, Sky in JE was still a significant mark of progress over Carth in KOTOR. Sky was a real full-fledged potential M/M romance being the leading male in his story. Cop-out kiss-scene or otherwise, homophobic romance-path or not, Sky in JE marked real progress over his predecessors throughout video-gaming. Or he was actually the first of his kind? Either way the studio responsible for creating Sky does not see fit to continue the pattern of progress which he both began and ended. Folks may say that allowing a M/M LI sex-scene and full kiss in DA is progress in light of the cop-out M/M Sky kiss in JE. I will remind those people that Zevran is not human, not the leading male, and also bent in such way as to coddle homophobic people. DA2 may change that. I'm hoping, albeit slimly. I have no illusions that the homophobic ME3 team will do anything but continue to insult us.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:19 .

[Collider]

I have no illusions that the homophobic ME3 team will do anything but continue to insult us.

Homophobic? Please.

[dzizass]

kalassy wrote...

Maker help me...... <_<

And if I recall correctly, Zevran told little to no stories about his experiences with men and about 2-4 stories of his experiences with bedding women. [inappropriate content removed]

This is why we can't have nice things.

I think you need all the help you can get. You may remember that companions not only tell stories when asked to but also comment on the players current endeavors. I recall him making "jokes" like these a couple of times, e.g. one of them was when you meet the hermit in Brokilon Forest (or whatever the name was).

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:36 .

[kalassy]

Collider wrote...

kalassy wrote...

I remember something about Zevran and foreign objects.

If I was "annoyed" by anything, it was that he made the player know that he preferred women, IIRC.

Yeah, really, this. Like I said, there were little to no stories about being with men and 2-4, if i remember correctly, stories about being with women. In the beginning, if anything, it felt like he was just fliting with you, as a guy, just so he could use you/so you wouldn't kill him.

[Saibh]

kalassy wrote...

Collider wrote...

kalassy wrote...

I remember something about Zevran and foreign objects.

If I was "annoyed" by anything, it was that he made the player know that he preferred women, IIRC.

Yeah, really, this. Like I said, there were little to no stories about being with men and 2-4, if i remember correctly, stories about being with women. In the beginning, if anything, it felt like he was just fliting with you, as a guy, just so he could use you/so you wouldn't kill him.

Let's see...Rinna. That dancer woman. The woman he was convinced not to kill who tried to kill him. One of his targets with the terrible sex poetry (I don't quite count her, but you can). Those are the only ones I distinctly remember. On the male side, there's Taliesin.

I think I am missing one of the women, though...

[Collider]

kalassy wrote...

Collider wrote...

kalassy wrote...

I remember something about Zevran and foreign objects.

If I was "annoyed" by anything, it was that he made the player know that he preferred women, IIRC.

Yeah, really, this. Like I said, there were little to no stories about being with men and 2-4, if i remember correctly, stories about being with women. In the beginning, if anything, it felt like he was just fliting with you, as a guy, just so he could use you/so you wouldn't kill him.

Sometimes I get the feeling that they did this so he wouldn't be "as gay."

[RosaAquafire]

Eromenos is my least favourite person.

[AlexXIV]

Collider wrote...

kalassy wrote...

Collider wrote...

kalassy wrote...

I remember something about Zevran and foreign objects.

If I was "annoyed" by anything, it was that he made the player know that he preferred women, IIRC.

Yeah, really, this. Like I said, there were little to no stories about being with men and 2-4, if i remember correctly, stories about being with women. In the beginning, if anything, it felt like he was just fliting with you, as a guy, just so he could use you/so you wouldn't kill him.

Sometimes I get the feeling that they did this so he wouldn't be "as gay."

Not that I know of such things, but isn't it likely a bisexual person prefers one gender over the other? Like on average etc.

[Collider]

Not that I know of such things, but isn't it likely a bisexual person prefers one gender over the other? Like on average etc.

I wouldn't be too surprised - but in this case, it's suspect. I believe Zevran at one point literally says that he prefers women. Could be wrong, but that's what I seem to remember. It's one thing to have stories about being women, another to outright say that he prefers them. It's not wrong, but I would wonder what the point of it would be other than making him less "gay."

[Blacklash93]

Saibh wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I think the limit has been reached with warriors.

Well, he said two of each...but maybe more, you know? Technically there were three (possibly five, if you count Dog and Shale) in DAO.

Now we only have two weapon sets for warriors now, though. In Origins we did have axes, which Oghren used, but they may not be in DA2. Actually, we do have three if you count Carver along with Aveline and Fenris.

For Rouges we have dual-daggers (Isabela) and archery. I can see Varric with his crossbow and another companion with a regular bow sharing archery.

There should be two mages besides Bethany if we're going to follow the trend with the Warrior companions. Merrill may be one of those.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:30 .

[Super_Cat]

Zevran may prefer women casually but it is the Warden he falls in love with.

[upsettingshorts]

Super_Cat wrote...

Zevran may prefer women casually but it is the Warden he falls in love with.

...doesn't he also fall in love with the female Warden, given that path?

The discussion therefore is Zevran's preferences before meeting the Warden, is it not?

[JrayM16]

Eromenos wrote...

I R back!

Oh, I said it. The effects of these existing queer characters DO in fact help us in some ways, even if those benefits come marred by conditions that contain our images within hurtful patterns which sustain a defeatist attitude clinging to "any and all" queer examples as if they're precious simply due to the rarity of such crumbs. Folks are too quick to glorify that minor benefit as if these bore some intent all along to help our visibility on the stage. If that were truly the case, male LI would not have been segregated into one solitary option nor would it have been cast on the spare who exhibits negative outward stereotypes compared to the main-line leading male. The intent behind that choice was motivated by PR and sales. "Economics of the situation." So we're not people to BioWare, we're figures. So easy for BioWare to play with our images as convenient tokens translating into sound-bytes and screenshots to profess goodwill toward people who believe that any token is a good token.

OK, I think you're taking things way out of proportion.  To say that people overly glorify the few homosexual LIs in Bioware games is not an incorrect statement, but to extrapolate that idea out to the level that homosexuality is being manipulated as goodwill tokens is simply flawed logic.  It's not a token of any kind, it's a character.  While I can't say exactly how much effort Bioware put into each character, I think that it's probably a safe bet that the same amount of effort was put into just about all the characters in that game.  And characters are so much more than representations anyway.  You use the term "our images".  You're mistaking sexuality as a cohesive identity, as opposed to a part of a much larger personality, whether in fiction or in real life.  Zevran is no more a representation of a bisexual man than Morrigan is a representation of a straight woman.  Zevran is a character with a distinct personality, who is also bisexual. 

FYI to all. I do not say that Zevran and Sky are the types who need to be stricken from these games. I say that their types should not be made into the sole depictions of M/M intimacy. It is wrong to impose a huge burden of representation upon the shoulders of but one major male figure in such stories. It's even worse when said characters are bent around homophobic sensibilities, as these two were. Positive and negative dynamics are not so simple that we can afford to stop and only gush at how that their effects can fulfill some measure of positive outcome with the players who try hard to affirm love with these characters.

We need to remember that even while queer-positive people take something out of these creations, so too do the queer-hating people. None of us should ever forget that there are players who take the hard-negative view regarding queer representation. It's not enough to merely pretend as if these characters' positives outweigh the negatives which they've been more heavily-tailored to fulfill.

I'll say it again.  You need to stop thinking of them as bisexual characters and should start thinking of them as characters who are bisexual. Personalities and outlooks don't exist in a vacuum, uneffected by certain aspects of the character.  If a character is homosexual or bisexual, then that is going to affect the way that character acts, not necessarily in a stereotypical way, but it does change that character's outlook and occasionally actions.  Setting is an important part of that.  Homosexuality is frowned upon by many peoples and cultures.  Since this is commonplace in real life it will often reflect in settings created for fictional purposes.  Thedas is alrgely based on medieval Europe, where the Catholic church was dominant.  Since the Catholic church generally condemns homosexuality, it is fair to speculate that the Chantry would have a similar outlook, possibly generating a culture of homophobia.  With homophobia being commonplace, it only makes sense for characters to feel some shame about their sexuality due to societal pressures, it happens all the time in real life.  The same basic premise goes for Sky.  SInce ******/bisexuality is not "the norm" he would feel uncomfortable about it, especially considering that there was no cultural presence of ******

 

From our exchanges thus far, it's clear you dismiss any near-future hope of say, rendering all potential romances in a game functionally bisexual to give everybody a chance at experiencing something most of us might appreciate. Considering that your renderings of us have not even been considerate toward a necessary broad range of effects and implications they carry for us specifically, you ought to still consider this unrealized possibility as something that is worth pushing for. I know that writers don't simply hand scripts over to the rest of the project team and expect them to magically bring it all to life. Give and take occurs on both sides. Obviously DAO couldn't afford much fat. But that's not what we are. The flaw here is in thinking of us as an extravagance. You're handling our images. And this goes beyond just you, but also to the other folks here who like to see queer people as charity-cases. That's the crippling factor behind this entire issue.

To your first point, I would say that the scenario you describe is mostly unrealistic.  As much as it would be kinda good, in real life there are straight people, bisexual people, and homosexual people.  Any scenario  that attempts to wipde this diversity in either direction is a farce at best.  Secondly, you put far too much strain on Bioware for their actions.  While it is true that Bioware characters may carry some implications for homosexuals, it is ridiculous to suggest that they should alter a game designed for entertainment for fear of political implications when the game in question is not being directly offensive in any way.  It is perhaps fair to criticize them for doing too little, but to then characterize them as "using our images" or pandering is just plain wrong. 

You feel they view homosexual relationships as "an extravagance" despitethe fact that they garner mostly the same effort and attention as each of the other romances.  THis is partially because you are viewing the homosexual aspect separately from the character.  Of course the straight and homosexual relationships of one character would be similar because it is the same character.  And there is change, which you yourself point out when discussing Zevran and Sky's discomfort with their own sexuality.  I would much rather have a portrayal of the effect homosexuality has on a person in a judgemental society than an attempt to create a "representation" of homosexual people which is supposed to represent a denomination of people who all have distinct personalities while advancing the cause of gay rights in some fashion.  It's a game, but that's not to say that it doesn't matter, it's to say that the story and characters and their quality come before politics.

[Bryy_Miller]

Eromenos wrote...
BioWare needlessly wrote in this fear of homophobia within a fictional setting that could have instead afforded to flout one terrible aspect of our own world.

Homosexuality is strongly implied as being the norm in Antiva. 

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:34 .

[Ninja Mage]

Zevran slept with Talisen, A guy that looked like the king of antiva and some dude who he got the gold earing from. The only women he slept with were Rinna and Some girl he pushed out of a carriage that broke her neck. So that 3-2

[Collider]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Zevran slept with Talisen, A guy that looked like the king of antiva and some dude who he got the gold earing from. The only women he slept with were Rinna and Some girl he pushed out of a carriage that broke her neck. So that 3-2

At most it's implied that he slept with Taliesin.
With the other women, Zevran makes it obvious that he had sex with them.

[Eromenos]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rakumn wrote...

Be thankful for the privlege.

Congrats, you just handed Ero a loaded gun. 

Lmao.

To Rakumm-

Who is being privileged here? Queer gamers and their allies who run up against fewer choices for M/M and F/F, and who find that the odds are much in favor of meeting only very few queer npcs who have no power, are made victims, and or commit evil acts against their lovers and beyond?

Or is it the mostly-straight homophobic segment of gamers who are always given magnified, varied, and multiplied versions of queer gamers' choices? I.E., the group who is allowed to take any choice the queer gamers are stuck with in addition to being allowed further choices the queer gamers are barred from? Not to mention being able to see people who represent their own (outward)sexuality wielding power and more often (though not always)seen as fair?

The DLC-addition of Herren & Wade marks the ability and know-how for BioWare to give us better canon queer representation, but that still doesn't change the fact that many more players experienced the likes of Branka. As for the so-called privilege of being able to romance fewer people than the straight gamers can, I suggest you not confuse illusions of privilege with the realities that come with being treated like a pet.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:39 .

[kalassy]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Zevran slept with Talisen, A guy that looked like the king of antiva and some dude who he got the gold earing from. The only women he slept with were Rinna and Some girl he pushed out of a carriage that broke her neck. So that 3-2

Please see Saibh's comment.

[Bryy_Miller]

Herren & Wade are in the main campaign. Honestly, you need to stop making things up in order to support your claim that BioWare and EA are homophobic jerkwads.

[Collider]

I wonder if we'll ever see a male party member who prefers men.