2001 réponses à ce sujet

[shootist70]

Russalka wrote...

What caused the last thread to get locked, again?

 

To quote the moderator:

Please feel free to start this topic again. Please also feel free to put on your happy faces and keep it civil. There is nothing wrong with this thread itself. However as it has devolved into bigotry, it could do with a refresh.

Hopefully the thread won't go there again.

[Coyote Hunter]

shootist70 wrote...

Russalka wrote...

What caused the last thread to get locked, again?

 

To quote the moderator:

Please feel free to start this topic again. Please also feel free to put on your happy faces and keep it civil. There is nothing wrong with this thread itself. However as it has devolved into bigotry, it could do with a refresh.

Hopefully the thread won't go there again.

The fact that this topic is, by its nature, so inflammatory and controversial is probably the reason it won't be in the game.  BioWare is a corporation whose goal is to achieve profit, not an activist organization looking to forward an agenda.  They get to tell great stories and create really fun, beautiful games as they pursue the dollar, but that doesn't mean they would be willing to hamstring their profitability with unnecessary controversy.  I guarantee you, this topic isn't being addressed right now at BioWare in terms discussing the interest of gay gamers or social justice, but instead they probably figured this stuff out a year ago with questions about cost effectiveness, public relations and actual value.

[Collider]

Coyote Hunter wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

Russalka wrote...

What caused the last thread to get locked, again?

 

To quote the moderator:

Please feel free to start this topic again. Please also feel free to put on your happy faces and keep it civil. There is nothing wrong with this thread itself. However as it has devolved into bigotry, it could do with a refresh.

Hopefully the thread won't go there again.

The fact that this topic is, by its nature, so inflammatory and controversial is probably the reason it won't be in the game.  BioWare is a corporation whose goal is to achieve profit, not an activist organization looking to forward an agenda.  They get to tell great stories and create really fun, beautiful games as they pursue the dollar, but that doesn't mean they would be willing to hamstring their profitability with unnecessary controversy.  I guarantee you, this topic isn't being addressed right now at BioWare in terms discussing the interest of gay gamers or social justice, but instead they probably figured this stuff out a year ago with questions about cost effectiveness, public relations and actual value.

I guarantee you, the topic of same sex romance was controversial before DA:O was released. Yet Zevran was still a bisexual. Controversy also, strangely enough, often results in more sales than less.

[Russalka]

I sincerely doubt having homosexual romance caused any harm to the profits.

[Collider]

Russalka wrote...

I sincerely doubt having homosexual romance caused any harm to the profits.

Wouldn't be surprised if it raised profits.

[realyoungjeezy]

shootist70 wrote...

I'll repost this here from the last locked thread, because sadly the idea got swamped under a lot of ill-informed trolling.

Given Dragon Age's setting there's a great s/s character model to use that moves away from lousy stereotypes. I mentioned this briefly on the s/s romance thread on the ME forums, but it's worth repeating here, and it's basically the concept of the 'shield brother.'

The ancient Greeks had a fierce warrior culture that didn't shy away from homosexuality. Their Homeric equivalent of the bible was all about warrior heroes, not gentle prophets. They worshipped the perfect warrior form so much that it became a part of their sexuality. It reached its peak with the elite Theban Sacred Band, who were an unbeatable hoplite phalanx comprised purely of 150 pairs of gay lovers. These guys swore oaths to defend their lover to the death, over the tomb of Iolaos (who was the mythical gay lover of Hercules). And it worked, they beat the Spartans every time they went up against them, and were only finally defeated after a cavalry charge led by history's most famous bisexual warrior, Alexander the Great.

Personally I think that sort of shield-brother/warrior character would be a great s/s romance option, and one that's rooted deeply in western historical culture. It goes way beyond just sex and into a deep bond between two warrior-lovers. That sort of bond was something that Greek and Hellenic culture saw as very normal, even healthy. Sure, it hasn't tended to be looked on well by stuffy historians from a conservative background, but more modern historians are seeing it with fresh insight, so it's a great model to use.

(not attacking homosexuality)  greek society was disgusting overall.  They believed in having sex with little boys, I don't want people to get the wrong opinions.

[shootist70]

realyoungjeezy wrote...

(not attacking homosexuality)  greek society was disgusting overall.  They believed in having sex with little boys, I don't want people to get the wrong opinions.

That's a mistake of perception. You're judging a past culture with the values of a society that's still hampered by a legacy of judeo-christian sin guilt (or alternatively, judging it as somebody who gets all their info via a quick look at wikipedia). Pederasty wasn't simply 'sex with little boys', it was a voluntary mentor relationship between adolescents and older warriors (or men of other importance), in a society that didn't perceive homosexuality as sinful.

You can't simple-mindedly throw the baby out with the bathwater when trying to judge each culture. Where would that leave our own, or just about every human culture that's ever existed?

Modifié par shootist70, 30 août 2010 - 04:02 .

[Greifvogel]

shootist70 wrote...

realyoungjeezy wrote...

(not attacking homosexuality)  greek society was disgusting overall.  They believed in having sex with little boys, I don't want people to get the wrong opinions.

That's a mistake of perception. You're judging a past culture with the values of a society that's still hampered by a legacy of judeo-christian sin guilt (or alternatively, judging it as somebody who gets all their info via a quick look at wikipedia). Pederasty wasn't simply 'sex with little boys', it was a voluntary mentor relationship between adolescents and older warriors (or men of other importance), in a society that didn't perceive homosexuality as sinful.

You can't simple-mindedly throw the baby out with the bathwater when trying to judge each culture. Where would that leave our own, or just about every human culture that's ever existed?

I hate to break it down to you but that guy's a troll.

Modifié par Greifvogel, 30 août 2010 - 04:10 .

[Collider]

distinguetraces wrote...

Semyaza82 wrote...
Personally i liked Zev,

As did I!

I felt kind of bad that my post in the previous thread jumped on the Zev-is-too-campy bandwagon (which I do think is true to some extent), when obviously I'm enough of a fan to use him for my sig quote.

I want someone more morally upright.

[Eudaemonium]

I personlly really liked Zev. He was a character I instantly liked and related to. That said, another Zevran would be a bit stale, so if there is a M/M romance (and I hope there is), I'd like the partner to be quite different. Possibly more, tough or "masculine" in demeanour, and more reserved, with a strong moral backing. A human or qunari/vashoth woud be interesting, as would a dwarf, but I'm hoping for a female qunari/vashoth in this game, and two qunari seems unlikely, so here's hoping for human or dwarf. A think a tough warrior dwarf who was gay or bisexual would be awesome.

[Shadow_broker]

Greifvogel wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

realyoungjeezy wrote...

(not attacking homosexuality)  greek society was disgusting overall.  They believed in having sex with little boys, I don't want people to get the wrong opinions.

That's a mistake of perception. You're judging a past culture with the values of a society that's still hampered by a legacy of judeo-christian sin guilt (or alternatively, judging it as somebody who gets all their info via a quick look at wikipedia). Pederasty wasn't simply 'sex with little boys', it was a voluntary mentor relationship between adolescents and older warriors (or men of other importance), in a society that didn't perceive homosexuality as sinful.

You can't simple-mindedly throw the baby out with the bathwater when trying to judge each culture. Where would that leave our own, or just about every human culture that's ever existed?

I hate to break it down to you but that guy's a troll.

IF you're referring to me (i made a similar post) i'll have you know i was not trolling and just because i share my minority opinion on a thread does not make me one, On the otherhand many who disagreed with me resorted to name calling and attacks on my person
I think gay romances can go too far in videogames as can hetero(Miranda and jacob were both too sugestive from certain angles in mass effect)  and i have the right to think so and express my thoughts on the forum as you all have the right to disagree with me. Even if i have the option to not recruit him like Zevran he may be Vital to my gameplay style(Zevran was only melee rogue)

I also Was not trying to say homosexuality was related in anyway to pedohiles, I'm sorry if someone made that misconception

Modifié par Shadow_broker, 30 août 2010 - 04:29 .

[Greifvogel]

Shadow_broker wrote...

IF you're referring to me

No worries, I wasn't. I was just pointing out a troll.

[Shadow_broker]

distinguetraces wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...
i was not trolling and just because i share my minority opinion on a thread does not make me one, On the otherhand many who disagreed with me resorted to name calling and attacks on my person

Do try to recognize that your opinion about homosexuality is an opinion about me -- about my character, about the character of my partner, about the dignity of our relationship.

I'm gay. It is not possible to talk trash about homosexuality without insulting me in the most personal terms.

Of course, there is no excuse for replying to rudeness with rudeness. But not all opinions can be made courteous simply by reminding the people they characterize that they are "just your opinion".

I never talked trash about homosexuality, I simply said it could go too far in videogames AS WELL as hetero romance and one idea someone mentioned went too far IMO
I keep reminding people it's just my opinion because on the last thread after i made one small comment people beserked, calling me a troll and attacks on my person for disagreeing.

I'm not attacking you or homosexuals in general, and i think that you should actually read my post or ask me to clarify before claiming i was

[Saibh]

Stop. Now. All of you, please. If you want to know why the past thread was locked, refer to OP. If you want a detailed description, PM each other.

We're not taking this to a personal level. If you must disagree, do so cordially and keep the bigotry and hate speech out. If you feel you want to argue that point with someone, you also may do so, but insult free. If I, or any of the others, really feel like someone is being bigoted, I'll try to get the mods to step in and get things under control.

Remember:

Saying "I'm against gays, and they shouldn't be in the game" is hate speech (try replacing "gays" with some other minority if you feel that isn't so). Saying "Homosexuality makes me uncomfortable, which is why I don't want it to be in the game" isn't, even if you or I disagree. You don't need to limit yourselves to exactly what I tell you to say, but bear in mind the difference between a fair opinion and homophobic hate.

If it goes too far, on either side, I'll attempt to warn, as politely as possible, before I go jumping up and down for Papa Mods to go save me.

If you disagree with my stance on things, feel free to PM me and we can talk. If you feel I'm being unfair, call a mod. This ends, back to the thread topic.

Modifié par Saibh, 30 août 2010 - 05:17 .

[Semyaza82]

realyoungjeezy wrote...

(not attacking homosexuality)  greek society was disgusting overall.  They believed in having sex with little boys, I don't want people to get the wrong opinions.

  OK, i want to be very clear here - i am be a huge history pedant here, i know this am OK with it Also, really not attacking anyone.
I think the Greeks get a bit of a bad rap with this issue alot of the time - if for no other reason they they all get lumped in togther. The varrious city states of ancient Greece had wildly differering views of sexuality. The model of that many people think of is often that of a young boy with an older man - and it was not universal (largely it was Athenian - as they became the dominat cultural and political power in Greece their ideals spread to an extent).  In many Greek states romanic relationships between adult men a complete no-no and in others they were seen as perfectly natural.

All of that was really just historical nit picking, but i also i honestly don't think pointing to one positive aspect of a historical period and/or region is the same as saying you think their system of laws and morality is perfect. There is really no place ot time in human history when there wasn't something done that would be at least somewhat offensive to modern sensiblities and morals.

Hmmm, that ended up being much longer than i intended

[Saibh]

distinguetraces wrote...

Saibh wrote...
We're not taking this to a personal level.

Really? Are you sure?

Remember:

Saying "I'm against gays, and they shouldn't be in the game" is hate speech (try replacing "gays" with some other minority if you feel that isn't so). Saying "Homosexuality makes me uncomfortable, which is why I don't want it to be in the game" isn't, even if you or I disagree.

Hm.

"Jews make me uncomfortable, which is why I don't want them to be in the game."

PM me, as I said. 

[HarryThePlotter]

shootist70 wrote...

realyoungjeezy wrote...

(not attacking homosexuality)  greek society was disgusting overall.  They believed in having sex with little boys, I don't want people to get the wrong opinions.

That's a mistake of perception. You're judging a past culture with the values of a society that's still hampered by a legacy of judeo-christian sin guilt (or alternatively, judging it as somebody who gets all their info via a quick look at wikipedia). Pederasty wasn't simply 'sex with little boys', it was a voluntary mentor relationship between adolescents and older warriors (or men of other importance), in a society that didn't perceive homosexuality as sinful.

You can't simple-mindedly throw the baby out with the bathwater when trying to judge each culture. Where would that leave our own, or just about every human culture that's ever existed?

The future is already here. Run like hell!

[shootist70]

HarryThePlotter wrote...


The future is already here. Run like hell!

Now, now. don't sink to cheap, emotive responses. Remember, we're talking an ancient culture here, and we're looking at some of it's most positive aspects - such as the ancient Greek shield brother bond, not Greek culture as a whole.

Every culture has its dark sides (by our standards), that doesn't mean each doesn't have decent inspirations we can draw on.

Modifié par shootist70, 30 août 2010 - 06:48 .

[HarryThePlotter]

shootist70 wrote...

HarryThePlotter wrote...


The future is already here. Run like hell!

Now, now. don't sink to cheap, emotive responses. Remember, we're talking an ancient culture here, and we're looking at some of it's most positive aspects - such as the ancient Greek shield brother bond, not Greek culture as a whole.

Every culture has its dark sides (by our standards), that doesn't mean each doesn't have decent inspirations we can draw on.

Satisfied? ( )

EDIt: Oh, And I disagree with you.

Modifié par HarryThePlotter, 30 août 2010 - 06:53 .

[zahra]

I would like a gay character that looks like Neil Patrick Harris and is voiced by Neil Patrick Harris.



Also, bigotry is sooo 1998.

[Shadow_broker]

Just thought i would say this incase i offended anyone else

I have no problems with Male male romance in Dragon age as long as it is tasteful,not forced on players who do not want to see it(which i hope with the new dialagoue system will be easily avoidable), and remains optional the same applies to Hetero romances. and if you want to know what i consider to be distasteful the "love scenes" were just unnesscary and could have just faded to black.