2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninja Mage]

I think the mass effect team may be homphobic, but the dragon age team is very inclusive

[JrayM16]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Herren & Wade are in the main campaign. Honestly, you need to stop making things up in order to support your claim that BioWare and EA are homophobic jerkwads.

I agree.  Perhaps it is fair to say that they could do much more, but you accusations of homophobia are largely baseless and unfair.  You're making a value judgment based on actions which you cannot see behind.

[Collider]

Calling them homophobic is just too much considering what they've done, imo.

It's regretful that there were no M/M options in Mass Effect, but I think that's a far cry from being homophobic. There are plenty of games out there with no homosexual content whatsoever. And some of the games that do have mention of it only do so for the purpose of comedy.

[AlexXIV]

Collider wrote...

I wonder if we'll ever see a male party member who prefers men.

Ever is a very long time, but for you  to see it I guess it should happen in the next ... 50-60 years?

But seriously I think it just might happen. Maybe even sooner than you think.

[Stanley Woo]

So we're down to debating just "how bi" Zevran is? Is this how gay and bi people in real life determine whether a person is "bi enough" to call themselves bisexual? Because, if so, i'm rather against it and i'd rather you take the discussion elsewhere.

And Eromenos, if you wish to continue with the name-calling of our development teams, you and I are going to have words. it's one thing to disagree with us, even vehemently. it's another thing entirely to keep accusing us of things as though we haven't already responded to your concerns. And if your concerns are so strong that nothing short of an extreme paradigm shift will mollify you, then we actually have nothing more to discuss. Thank you.

EDIT: Ninja Mage: the "no name-calling" thing applies to you too. Cut it out, please.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:45 .

[YoziMaiden]

Eromenos wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rakumn wrote...

Be thankful for the privlege.

Congrats, you just handed Ero a loaded gun. 

Lmao.

To Rakumm-

Who is being privileged here? Queer gamers and their allies who run up against fewer choices for M/M and F/F, and who find that the odds are much in favor of meeting only very few queer npcs who have no power, are made victims, and or commit evil acts against their lovers and beyond?

Or is it the mostly-straight homophobic segment of gamers who are always given magnified, varied, and multiplied versions of queer gamers' choices? I.E., the group who is allowed to take any choice the queer gamers are stuck with in addition to being allowed further choices the queer gamers are barred from? Not to mention being able to see people who represent their own (outward)sexuality wielding power and more often (though not always)seen as fair?

The DLC-addition of Herren & Wade marks the ability and know-how for BioWare to give us better canon queer representation, but that still doesn't change the fact that many more players experienced the likes of Branka. As for the so-called privilege of being able to romance fewer people than the straight gamers can, I suggest you not confuse illusions of privilege with the realities that come with being treated like a pet.

Please don't use being treated as a pet negatively, some of us really get into that sort of thing.

[Collider]

So we're down to debating just "how bi" Zevran is? Is this how gay and bi people in real life determine whether a person is "bi enough" to call themselves bisexual? Because, if so, i'm rather against it and i'd rather you take the discussion elsewhere.

In my case, no.

It's a discussion of why they may have made Zevran prefer women.

Ever is a very long time, but for you to see it I guess it should happen in the next ... 50-60 years?



But seriously I think it just might happen. Maybe even sooner than you think.

I hope to see it soon. Or even a male bisexual romance option who doesn't have a preference for gender. That would work too, and is more likely.

[kalassy]

Stanley Woo wrote...

So we're down to debating just "how bi" Zevran is? Is this how gay and bi people in real life determine whether a person is "bi enough" to call themselves bisexual? Because, if so, i'm rather against it and i'd rather you take the discussion elsewhere.

The only reason it was brought up was because of the person that said all Zevran does is go around talking about, gay things, for lack of a better word. I don't really think anyone cares how gay he is. :/

[upsettingshorts]

The numbers game over straight romance options versus gay romance options runs into a problem of approaching it from a direction that I believe differs from the developers' intent.  Take all of this with a grain of salt as it is purely speculative on my part.

For example, if the goal of the developers is to appeal to as many potential players as possible, then the variety of straight options as opposed to gay ones must be viewed differently than a simple comparison of potential options.  In other words, while it's obvious that no romance option will appeal to everyone, this is just as true of straight gamers as it is for gay ones.  And while it might be easy and true to say, "Well, straight gamers have four options while gay gamers have only two, or one, if they don't care about F/F or M/M specifically" - that ignores the goal:  Which is to be as broadly appealing as possible given the limited resources at the developers' disposal.

If they feel that the inclusion of an additional straight love interest would appeal to a broader group of players than say, any of the other straight options in the game, than would the inclusion of a gay option - they would be justified from a resource management perspective in adding another straight option.  Let's play with some pretend numbers:

We have 11 players.  The game has two straight love interests already and no gay ones. 
Players 1-3 like straight love interest 1.
Players 4-6 like straight love interest 2.
Players 7-9 might like a straight love interest 3.
Players 10-11 might like a gay love interest.

It is more inclusive in the sense of broad appeal that isn't tied solely to sexual preference to include straight love interest 3.  As players 7-9 are just as disinterested in straight love interest 2 as they would be gay love interest 1. 

In the case of say, FemShep and Liara, maybe that would appeal not only to players 7-9, but also player 10 - but not 11.  That makes it easier to justify from a resource perspective.  This also applies to bi characters.

I may be wrong, but I don't see homophobia propping up anywhere in this explanation of a potential thought process that leads to decisions like those made in ME1-2, or DAO. The issue seems to be trying to predict what players 1-11 actually want.  But no-one in this thread can really claim to do that, though the guys with the Bioware tags can probably call some other department and ask for someone who can, or at the very least whose job description includes trying to estimate it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 janvier 2011 - 02:09 .

[Stanley Woo]

It becomes far more complex when dealing with larger numbers (such as the tens of millions in a potential market) and when preferences and tolerances intersect in any number of ways. That said, I do like Upsettingshorts' explanation.



And yeah, we might be able to get some of that info, and we can and do sometimes generate it ourselves with focus testing, surveys and stuff, but we also guesstimate since doing so is fast, free, and allows us to implement ideas right away. Doesn't always work, but we do try. We also take into account what we think is awesome, since BioWare has long been a company that makes games that its developers would love to play.



So unless someone wants to accuse all of us developers of being homophobic, even (statistically) the non-straight ones, then I have this here short pier I would invite such name-callers to take a particularly enthusiastic and long walk off of. Be excellent to each other.

[Eromenos]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

The sex-scenes? I've used the devconsole hack to play as a male elf Warden whom Alistair treats as female. There was nothing that didn't fit there. The heads didn't line up at first during kisses, but the sex-scenes were flawless and that was just my male character's model taking on the "female" animations.

Male elves in DA are very similar in size and proportions to human females, it's not too surprising such change would more or less fit (even so, you do note things don't line up in parts of the sequence)

The issues become quite more pronounced when it comes to human males and dwarf males who have no female equivalents size- and proportions-wise. These may require some extensive tweaks if not a separate animation altogether -- the differences between bodies are large enough to prevent the sequences from being "one size fits all".

But Alistair was reacting to my male elf Warden as though he were a female elf Warden. He wasn't treating me like a human female, but rather an elf female. Between the two elf genders then, sex-scenes with Alistair are both seamless. I'm just guessing that his retail-version M/F with female elves is in fact, seamless.

Mmmmm.

According to this clip, Male Cousland with Alistair appears to be 100% seamless.

Funny thing, I don't recall my character and Alistair going at it quite so long, or in all of those...positions. Does the sex play out differently depending on your race?

No idea how well Alistair plays with male dwarves.

2/3 is good enough reason to tweak the 3rd to fit, in the off-chance that the dwarf didn't. Even if that were the case, principle alone is an even bigger reason to actually include us.

[Ninja Mage]

I appreciate the time you guys put into the games you make. I just wish I could enjoy Mass Effect a bit more. I feel left out in Mass Effect

[Wicked 702]

??????????????????????????

Alistair wasn't a gay romance option.

[TJPags]

Wicked 702 wrote...

??????????????????????????
Alistair wasn't a gay romance option.

Mods made him one.

[YoziMaiden]

I feel the same... sure, there was F/F in mass effect. Alas the only character I was particularly interested in was Tali, and too my knowledge no actual companions were capable as S/S romance.



On the other hand, as I have said before I loved what I got in Dragon Age.

[ScotGaymer]

Oops.



I really didnt mean to set off a hating on mass effect and its team arguement ehre. Sorry guys.



There could perhaps be an arguement made for the belief that the Mass Effect team (or someone on it) is homophobic just as there could be an arguement for the opposite, we dont really know either way for sure, but that is totally not the point of this thread.



Onto addressing the Romance thingeys:

Sky was great. I loved him as an LI more than I did Zevran; and I didnt mind that he was worried about homophobia and what not. He lived in a fictional society that was blatantly misogynistic and positively reeked of reactionary sexuality in the vein of the middle age societies of Europe and Asia. I felt that given the context of the game and the universe in which he existed it totally made sense.

My only issue with it was how stupidly difficult it was to trigger the romance and how bugged it was - a mod fixed it in the PC version. You basically had to be a total douche to your best friend (Dawn Star) so that she never spoke to you again, and totally ****** off her Royal Highnessness to even get him to look at you. Which didnt make sense to me.



For Zevran. Another romance I positively loved. The whole way he kept within his established character (which some people didnt like which is fine), he only flirted and tried to get into ur pants to use you, to try and keep your male warden sweet as it were. Then he starts to fall for your PC and has the whole turmoil related to that. It totally makes sense.

My only issue with Zevran was Alistair actually. Zevran acted like your typical horny straight guy who viewed sex in a totally cavalier fashion - if you forgive the vulgarity, in the sense of "any holes a goal". Ahem. Whereas Alistair acted a LOT more gay than Zevran; he totally keeps flirting with the male warden pretty much through the whole game; I felt he flirted more than Zevran did. If I had been the inexperienced male warden I would have totally fell in love with Alistair and not even noticed Zevran. The fact that I simply could not romance Alistair no matter how much he flirted with me caused me to actually notice that Zevran was totally up for it.



For the DA2 s/s romance.

I hope that we totally avoid the whole gay man**** stereotype this time round please. No more bisexual rogues! And I am still firmly against Dwarven romances (they just make no sense!).



I actually would like to see a Male Mage LI for the guys. Like Anders from Awakening.

[Saibh]

Eromenos wrote...

But Alistair was reacting to my male elf Warden as though he were a female elf Warden. He wasn't treating me like a human female, but rather an elf female. Between the two elf genders then, sex-scenes with Alistair are both seamless. I'm just guessing that his retail-version M/F with female elves is in fact, seamless.

Mmmmm.

According to this clip, Male Cousland with Alistair appears to be 100% seamless.

Funny thing, I don't recall my character and Alistair going at it quite so long, or in all of those...positions. Does the sex play out differently depending on your race?

No idea how well Alistair plays with male dwarves.

2/3 is good enough reason to tweak the 3rd to fit, in the off-chance that the dwarf didn't. Even if that were the case, principle alone is an even bigger reason to actually include us.

I think a more important point is, as a character, Alistair is straight. You're not going to change that, and I think your out of line to think that it's an insult to your sexuality that he is. Really, I'm quite fed up. You raise such hot button issues that people appear to be compelled to respond, despite repeated dev warnings not to.

This thread isn't your soapbox, and do you really think your doing yourself--or you're cause--any favors by behaving the way you do? 

I think my biggest issue with you is that I agree on quite a few of your points. But it's how you present them, it's the accusations you throw around that become the problem. You won't be fair, you won't be civil, and I fear you're ultimately undermining yourself.

For once, I'd like you to respond to someone telling you that you need to leave. You just ignore anyone who does, knowing that, until you get a ban, people will keep responding. Hell, I caved. Again: this thread is not your soapbox. Ask permission from the mods to make a seperate thread about how this issue pertains to DAII and BioWare--that will be on topic enough, I should think. If not, why are you continuously arguing your point here and getting this thread closer and closer to being locked?

Modifié par Saibh, 04 janvier 2011 - 02:23 .

[Eromenos]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
 That wouldn't be homophobia at all. 

You know, I said I was going away, but now I foolishly decided to click on the thread again. So here goes: nowhere did Gaider say anything about "worrying about being homophobic". You're just reading homophobia into EVERYTHING. Literally everything.

This is the complete thought I wrote-



Alternate lines...can you elaborate on this? I'm guessing demon-baby and contests for the throne. Maybe
not. But if so, then...a FWarden with Morrigan could have been presented with all the same choices that a MWarden has, but minus the option to spawn with her. That isn't adding lines, that's actually reducing lines. That wouldn't be homophobia at all. It would be merely acknowledgment of biological functionality. Plus, everyone who loves her ends up losing her. As for the MWarden's place in Alistair's life...Sun Lian in JE has no qualms about elevating her girlfriend beside her in the eyes of her people. Why not Alistair too, for his boyfriend? They would use all the preexisting lines for M/F but would also cut out the ones having to do with breeding, just like with Morrigan. I'm assuming the lines that remain do not need to carry gender pronouns, even if they did. There are potential endings in which Alistair and the Warden can be happy as rulers who do not promise any heirs.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure Grey Wardens can produce "normal" babies at all. Either way...the issue of breeding does not even have to be visited.



I know you'd like to resort to any means at this point to try and discredit me, but this is not a strong attempt.

When I was proposing method for implementing F/F into Morrigan, specifically relating to the demon-baby issue, I said that removing one of the M/F options would not be homophobia in the potential F/F version because there's no getting around the fact that both FWardens and Morrigan happen to be female. The females can't sire on Morrigan. And like MWardens, the FWardens will end up losing Morrigan as well. That would not be homophobia either. That would be real inclusion.

Hey, you know what? All the human main party members are white. Does that mean BioWare (and subsequently EA) are racist? According to your logic, it must. Nevermind that people have actually accused BioWare of being racist for including Jacob in Mass Effect 2. But it absolutely boggles my mind that you can just shrug off an actual developers comments so smugly. David Gaider wrote Zevran, and he's telling you what was going through his head, but that's not good enough for you. No, he has to be secretly a homophobe. How rabid a fan of anything do you have to be to ignore the creator of what you love when they try to have a discussion with you? And don't even get me started on how you have blatantly ignored all of the other gay members of the forum when they have tried to talk to you. Jimmy Fury tries to tell his side of the story, and your reaction is... what? Other gays can have differing viewpoints from your own, you know. I'm sure that you probably think all those people that wrote letters to Gaider are "self-hating gays" or something like that. 

Not everyone is homophobic just because they don't cater to your view on homosexuality. Not everyone is a self-hating gay just because they don't share your viewpoint. 

Look at me, all worked up over a video game website.

Please, please. When I talk about race-issues I talk about aliens and non-humans. I'll leave you the task of dragging people of color into this here thread, which is meant for matters of M/M sexuality.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 janvier 2011 - 02:27 .

[Collider]

And I am still firmly against Dwarven romances (they just make no sense!).

Such intolerance!

[Saibh]

Eromenos wrote...

Please, please. When I talk about race-issues I talk about aliens and non-humans. I'll leave you the task of dragging people of color into this here thread, which is meant for matters of M/M sexuality.

Why. Are. You. Talking. About. Staying. On. Topic.

What.

What.

What.

I have tried for pages to get you to go back on topic, but you just won't! I...I...

I'm going into meltdown. SYSTEM FAILURE PLZ.

[YoziMaiden]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

For the DA2 s/s romance.
I hope that we totally avoid the whole gay man**** stereotype this time round please. No more bisexual rogues! And I am still firmly against Dwarven romances (they just make no sense!).

How can you not want Dwarf romances?  They're like tiny bears...  and the females are tiny pudgy women with knock out curves...  those curves...

[Wicked 702]

TJPags wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

??????????????????????????
Alistair wasn't a gay romance option.

Mods made him one.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But since the game wasn't designed with that option in mind, how is any of that guy's post even relevant?

[Andraste_Reborn]

You know what I'd like to see in addition to the main m/m romance? More world encounters, like the one in DAO with the prison guard who can be seduced by Wardens of both genders. (Not that that one is remotely romatic, but you get my point.) And in addition to any randomly bisexual prison guards, it would be nice to slip the odd gay NPC in there somewhere. Say there was a tavern wench who only responded to flirting from a Lady Hawke or a manly Templar who was only interested in a male PC. I don't think that would require a huge investment of zots, given that such characters usually only have a dozen lines of VA anyway.



I also hope and expect that we'll continue to see LGBT characters in the world who have nothing to do with Hawke sexually, like Wade and Herren and Branka and Hespith.

[Wicked 702]

Saibh wrote...

I have tried for pages to get you to go back on topic, but you just won't! I...I...

I'm going into meltdown. SYSTEM FAILURE PLZ.

I believe this answers my question...

Thanks

[YoziMaiden]

Also, does anyone wonder how Alistar feels about being tricked into liking men?