1851 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[Zevais]

Seriously, sometimes I LOVE exaggerated proportions on FAKE women. It is eye candy to me, and I enjoy it. I am not going to go out and marry Molly Mounds with her 38KKK's holding a 2.5 gallons of silicone or even desire to go out with her.... but hey- can't I just at least LOOK? and ADMIRE?

I enjoy REAL women too. I would never be able to love a FAKE-ish woman; I would either die laughing or feel sorry for her desperate and sad life. There should be a balance though; there should be REAL women and some FAKE ones for me to oggle and be happy with. I enjoy them all.

That said... WOMEN deserve more too. We cater too much to just men. Women deserve their desired exaggerations on a male too. We should cater to them as well sometimes. I am not gay, so I am not sure how they want the male body to be portrayed most often (the average opinion of the women of the world). Let the women have some eyecandy too. I can avert my eyes. Certain aspects of the male form are not going to scar my mind for life if I only get a glimpse. If you are a guy that is petrified of the male form, you are probably just too afraid liking the male form too much to ever want to see it.

Bethany as well as Bethany+Hawke's Mother seem to be a tad bit exaggerated. I hope that is not a trend. I also hope the ladies here get a little bit of what they want in the male form in DA2.

Does that sound ok to you ladies?

Użytkownik Zevais edytował ten post 31 sierpień 2010 - 09:13

[Stanley Woo]

i don't think it should be viewed as some kind of competition of "which gender does BioWare like most?" that's just silly. And proportions are a matter of artistic style. The fantasy genre has long has the well-muscled man and the buxom woman; they are idealized figures.

[Anarya]

You know, it's not really about equivalency for me, and it's not really an objection to exaggerated proportions in ANY game. I said before in the boob thread that I have no problem whatsoever with games like Bayonetta or DOA Extreme Beach Volleyball. Personally I think Bayonetta is hilarious and a lot of fun because it's meant to be way, way over the top and campy.



That said, DA is not that type of game. Mike said in a post that the DA team doesn't go for the "chainmail bikini" type of armor look, and while that's been true so far, I'd like to see that mentality extend to less Barbie-like proportions on females. When I play a DA game I, as a woman, want to look like a hero. I want to look like someone who's able to pick up a sword and destroy things. Leave the plate bikinis and massive breasts to another game, please.



So no, I'm not asking for an 8-pack or invisible armor on every male in my party. (in fact aesthetically I prefer an "athletic" body type for both sexes, but I digress).

[Never]

Garrett is pretty damn good eye candy, it's just too bad we'd have to play him to see him! I'm sure we'll have plenty of lovely males throughout the game though

[Anarya]

I will also add that Bioware is already great at making male characters who are very attractive to women, but that most of the attraction comes from their personalities, because really, very few of the male face models in Origins and Awakening made me go "ooh HOT" at first glance.

[Deviija]

Idealized though they may be, they each come with entirely different connotations and representation. An idealized man comes to the table with muscles to showcase power and prowess, while an idealized woman comes to the table with small waists, big breasts, scant clothes, unrealistic proportions etc. for the pure purpose of sexualization. Big difference, even if they are still idealized imagery in genre media. A (straight) man can play a game and enjoy his fantasy of being a powerful male character, but it is still also a (straight) man's fantasy to have women portrayed in their idealized imagery. It is that kind of idealization that I could do without.



That said, I am quite fine with idealization if it is within proportion of offering something for everyone (in this case meaning eyecandy). Titillation, hypersexualization, what have you, I am more than welcoming of it in my fantasy media if the cards are dealt relatively evenly. Otherwise, it just comes off looking like exploitation of one sex over another or sexism to me. That's something I really do not want to be reminded of while playing my fantasy games or have foist upon me.

[andar91]

I don't think any images should every be TOO over-the-top, but I'd love to see attractive portrayals of both genders. I'm gay so I'm personally attracted to men, but I can appreciate beautiful females as well. But I don't want either gender half-naked and paraded in front of me UNLESS I'm in a brothel or an area where it makes sense. If I wanted porn I'd watch porn. The desire demons, for example, looked appropriate, but I'd be upset if that was too common, which seems to happen all too much since the main demographic of things like these are straight males. Again, I've got nothing against beautiful, sexy women (or men) but it can go too far.



I don't mind some exaggeration though. A good example is the barmaid (Alyth?) from BG Dark Alliance. Yeah, she was ridiculously jiggly and bouncy, but it was kind off ok since she worked in a seedy tavern in a big city. But things like this http://image.gamespo...90screen004.jpg is simply ridiculous.

[the_one_54321]

Deviija wrote...
Idealized though they may be, they each come with entirely different connotations and representation. An idealized man comes to the table with muscles to showcase power and prowess, while an idealized woman comes to the table with small waists, big breasts, scant clothes, unrealistic proportions etc. for the pure purpose of sexualization. Big difference, even if they are still idealized imagery in genre media. A (straight) man can play a game and enjoy his fantasy of being a powerful male character, but it is still also a (straight) man's fantasy to have women portrayed in their idealized imagery. It is that kind of idealization that I could do without.

That said, I am quite fine with idealization if it is within proportion of offering something for everyone (in this case meaning eyecandy). Titillation, hypersexualization, what have you, I am more than welcoming of it in my fantasy media if the cards are dealt relatively evenly. Otherwise, it just comes off looking like exploitation of one sex over another or sexism to me. That's something I really do not want to be reminded of while playing my fantasy games or have foist upon me.

What I'm reading in summary "men are idealized as cool, and women are idealized as sex. Therefore idealizations are not allowed." Perhaps you're trying to imply that there is some other method that will allow idealizations, but I don't think you allow any room for that. Perhaps you mean that a sexualized man is something other than rippled muscles? I'm not really sure, and that is the part of your post that is confusing me. How do you sexualize a male character?

[Arttis]

Lets just get muscular men and women.

Then skinny men and women.

Then sexy men and women.

Then you covered all bases the majority care about.

[Anarya]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What I'm reading in summary "men are idealized as cool, and women are idealized as sex. Therefore idealizations are not allowed." Perhaps you're trying to imply that there is some other method that will allow idealizations, but I don't think you allow any room for that. Perhaps you mean that a sexualized man is something other than rippled muscles? I'm not really sure, and that is the part of your post that is confusing me. How do you sexualize a male character?

I think what she meant was that the idealized man is someone who's cool, yes, but also very physically fit and therefore looks like he would be able to hold his own in a fight.

The traditional fantasy-style idealized woman is voluptuous yet thin. Long, thin legs, thin arms, wide hips, large breasts. She looks like someone who couldn't even lift a weapon let alone mow down hordes of enemies with one. The male ideal makes more sense for a hero than the female one. At least that's how I'm interpreting that post.

[Demx]

Anarya wrote...

You know, it's not really about equivalency for me, and it's not really an objection to exaggerated proportions in ANY game. I said before in the boob thread that I have no problem whatsoever with games like Bayonetta or DOA Extreme Beach Volleyball. Personally I think Bayonetta is hilarious and a lot of fun because it's meant to be way, way over the top and campy.

That said, DA is not that type of game. Mike said in a post that the DA team doesn't go for the "chainmail bikini" type of armor look, and while that's been true so far, I'd like to see that mentality extend to less Barbie-like proportions on females. When I play a DA game I, as a woman, want to look like a hero. I want to look like someone who's able to pick up a sword and destroy things. Leave the plate bikinis and massive breasts to another game, please.

So no, I'm not asking for an 8-pack or invisible armor on every male in my party. (in fact aesthetically I prefer an "athletic" body type for both sexes, but I digress).

Even if they did have chainmail bikinis, I bet none of the girls would have trouble finding the right size. You're either size human, elf, or dwarf.

[the_one_54321]

Anarya wrote...
I think what she meant was that the idealized man is someone who's cool, yes, but also very physically fit and therefore looks like he would be able to hold his own in a fight.

The traditional fantasy-style idealized woman is voluptuous yet thin. Long, thin legs, thin arms, wide hips, large breasts. She looks like someone who couldn't even lift a weapon let alone mow down hordes of enemies with one. The male ideal makes more sense for a hero than the female one. At least that's how I'm interpreting that post.

I honestly don't see how there is a strict problem with that. Both images provide what is widely accepted as attractive. Women don't wear little dresses and high heels because they help her kick butt. And I'll be frank with you, high heels are way more attractive than combat boots. That was an extreme example and should be taken as hyperbole. Point is that maybe her complaint is what people see as attractive as opposed to games presenting what is attractive. I'll tell you one thing for certain: games will give you a woman that looks attractive and make her hero, whether it makes a lot of physical sense or not.

[Minxie]

Anarya wrote...

That said, DA is not that type of game. Mike said in a post that the DA team doesn't go for the "chainmail bikini" type of armor look, and while that's been true so far, I'd like to see that mentality extend to less Barbie-like proportions on females. When I play a DA game I, as a woman, want to look like a hero. I want to look like someone who's able to pick up a sword and destroy things. Leave the plate bikinis and massive breasts to another game, please.
 

Exactly. I thought Bioware was better than this. Please don't change now. Hopefully Bethany's absurd figure is the extent of it.

Anarya wrote...


So no, I'm not asking for an 8-pack or invisible armor on every
male in my party. (in fact aesthetically I prefer an "athletic" body
type for both sexes, but I digress).

I prefer athletic for guys as well. My idea of good eye candy in a game is a lean, athletic dude with some kind of cool armor or outfit, with a nice face and practical hairstyle. Hell he doesn't even have to have that good-looking of a face... (lol that hasn't stopped anyone from loving Garrus or even Thane from ME2).
Ultimately the only thing I care about is that he's really funny or interesting somehow.

[Arttis]

Women will have chainmail bikinis and the men will have small straps on their chest and groin.

So we will be even.

[Hex of Hell]

To be honest, I find it a bit insulting when people equate large breasts with being overly sexualized, or insinuate that a large breasted woman (I'm meaning like Bethany sized, not like watermelons-I can't put my arms down-sized) couldn't pick up a sword and go to battle as well as a smaller breasted woman. I like seeing good looking characters. (I actually did a major paper on the topic of oversexing women in video games back in uni... as well as a half hour powerpoint/20 page research paper about these very forums .) Basically, so long as they are portrayed as an attractive person as opposed to a mass of flexing muscles and jiggling boobs there for the players amusement, I'm fine with it.

[andar91]

Arttis wrote...

Women will have chainmail bikinis and the men will have small straps on their chest and groin.
So we will be even.

Whenever clothes like that are possible in a game, I think there should be an instant-kill move where your character does nothing but stretch and the clothing snaps into an ultra-powerful whip that smites your enemies.  I remember thinking this about Ivy in Soul Calibur 4.  Now THERE'S a ridiculous outift (still my favorite character though).

[Anarya]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I honestly don't see how there is a strict problem with that. Both images provide what is widely accepted as attractive. Women don't wear little dresses and high heels because they help her kick butt. And I'll be frank with you, high heels are way more attractive than combat boots. That was an extreme example and should be taken as hyperbole. Point is that maybe her complaint is what people see as attractive as opposed to games presenting what is attractive. I'll tell you one thing for certain: games will give you a woman that looks attractive and make her hero, whether it makes a lot of physical sense or not.

There aren't many women who physically fight in the real world, and women wear short skirts and heels in context-appropriate situations (most of us anyway). To a club? Yes. To work at a construction site or archaeological dig? No.

Additionally there is more than one bodytype that is perceived as attractive. When you watch the Olympics, I don't think anyone is complaining that the female athletes are physically unattractive on the whole. Yet you'd be hard-pressed to find one with Pam Anderson's proportions. Why can't DA use an attractive female body model who also looks like she's suited for more than holding a sammitch and frosty beer on the sidelines for the men?

[zahra]

I don't really care about the boob size of NPC characters, as long as they are well-written. FemHawke however, is a different matter. Every other woman in Thedas can have cartoonishly large breasts as long as my FemHawke's chest area stays normal-looking. And by normal, I mean something that looks like it is well-supported and won't poke the darkspawn in the eye while she is beheading them.



IMO Bethany's breast size looked okay to me.

[Wyndham711]

I suppose at least in this case it seems the physical representation of an ideal woman to a man is decidedly different from an ideal woman to a woman. Males are the core demographic for BioWare games though, so when they make decisions artwise, it is natural to expect the male preferred ideal to come ahead if there needs to be a choice. There's also the aspect that the generally desireable features (from the male perspective) in a woman don't many times mesh all that well with any realistic, medieval heroine.

It can be argued that for a woman to be an effective warrior in plate, such rare individual can't be physically very feminine or generally all that desireable from a male perspective, and I would suppose many women would not like to play as a very homely character either. So if this kind of bleak realism doesn't really satisfy most of the playerbase, then why even bother chasing said realism at all in a case like this? It's not realistic for a warriorwoman to be very feminine (and it can even be argued whether it is at all wise even to include any prominent number of warrior women in any medieval esque setting that wishes to evoke a feel of realism), but quite clearly the realistic approach for most people would be an even more undesireable solution.

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What I'm reading in summary "men are idealized as cool, and women are idealized as sex. Therefore idealizations are not allowed." Perhaps you're trying to imply that there is some other method that will allow idealizations, but I don't think you allow any room for that. Perhaps you mean that a sexualized man is something other than rippled muscles? I'm not really sure, and that is the part of your post that is confusing me. How do you sexualize a male character?

What she's saying is that men like their avatars to be masculine and powerful, too. They like the women to look buxom and unrealistic. Women might like male avatars to be ripped, but they don't appreciate the Barbie look on their heroines.

I don't need for men to look ridiculously muscular in my game. It's an unfair trade-off, since I'd rather do without "my" eye-candy, and men generally enjoy looking their avatars looking masculine. I can do with more realistic bodies on both fronts.

Saying "big boobs are okay because everyone else does them!" is flat-out ridiculous; where were the Playboy models in the last game? Pretty sure it did well.

Quoting myself, here...

"Guys, do you honestly dislike characters for having average-sized breasts? You might think a character is hotter when she has bigger boobs, but do you dislike her for being average? Or not gargantuan? I doubt it. You guys appreciate boobs. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png That's what I was raised to believe."

Użytkownik Saibh edytował ten post 30 sierpień 2010 - 10:23

[Anarya]

Captain Hex wrote...

To be honest, I find it a bit insulting when people equate large breasts with being overly sexualized, or insinuate that a large breasted woman (I'm meaning like Bethany sized, not like watermelons-I can't put my arms down-sized) couldn't pick up a sword and go to battle as well as a smaller breasted woman. I like seeing good looking characters. (I actually did a major paper on the topic of oversexing women in video games back in uni... as well as a half hour powerpoint/20 page research paper about these very forums .) Basically, so long as they are portrayed as an attractive person as opposed to a mass of flexing muscles and jiggling boobs there for the players amusement, I'm fine with it.

Personally my problem is not with Bethany and Ma Hawke's proportions, specifically. It's with that body being the default for ALL females in the game. I'm not offended by large breasts and I don't think that if your genes have granted you a large bosom that you're inferior to other women...that'd just be silly. I don't care if some of the characters in the game have huge boobs, I just don't want everyone to have them and I especially don't want them on MY character. If Beth's proportions are a unique body model and the default is more average-sized I'll be happy as a clam and shut up about it.

[the_one_54321]

Anarya wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I honestly don't see how there is a strict problem with that. Both images provide what is widely accepted as attractive. Women don't wear little dresses and high heels because they help her kick butt. And I'll be frank with you, high heels are way more attractive than combat boots. That was an extreme example and should be taken as hyperbole. Point is that maybe her complaint is what people see as attractive as opposed to games presenting what is attractive. I'll tell you one thing for certain: games will give you a woman that looks attractive and make her hero, whether it makes a lot of physical sense or not.

There aren't many women who physically fight in the real world, and women wear short skirts and heels in context-appropriate situations (most of us anyway). To a club? Yes. To work at a construction site or archaeological dig? No.

Additionally there is more than one bodytype that is perceived as attractive. When you watch the Olympics, I don't think anyone is complaining that the female athletes are physically unattractive on the whole. Yet you'd be hard-pressed to find one with Pam Anderson's proportions. Why can't DA use an attractive female body model who also looks like she's suited for more than holding a sammitch and frosty beer on the sidelines for the men?

And the same can be said about men and their imagery. All it lacks in the ingrained negative attitude that has developed as a result of an oppresive history. The question still remains: what is it that you want to see in the male characters to make this equal? I'm all good with making things equal. That concept doesn't bother me at all. But what would you like to see to reach that?

[Fraq Hound]

Why do these discussions even exist?



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think unnatural breasts are unattractive. That doesn't mean they are unattractive. It just means they are unattractive to me.



It's Bioware's prerogative to make their characters look and act the way that they envision them looking or acting. It's our prerogative to like or dislike these characters but starting threads complaining about a characters features in the game really doesn't serve much purpose as it's not likely to have any effect on the final product whatsoever.

[Estelindis]

I would prefer neither gender to be objectified. I hope Bioware keeps things tasteful. I also hope to see less of the twig-thin arms on the ladies. (They actually looked deeply unhealthy.)

[the_one_54321]

Saibh wrote...
What she's saying is that men like their avatars to be masculine and powerful, too. They like the women to look buxom and unrealistic. Women might like male avatars to be ripped, but they don't appreciate the Barbie look on their heroines.

I don't need for men to look ridiculously muscular in my game. It's an unfair trade-off, since I'd rather do without "my" eye-candy, and men generally enjoy looking their avatars looking masculine. I can do with more realistic bodies on both fronts.

Hmmm, well I disagree with that. I want eye candy. I'm perfectly willing to share the eye candy, but I want eye candy.