1851 réponses à ce sujet

[sw33t nothings]

I've had this argument before, and I really don't want to have it again. I play an all woman sport, and about two years ago two transgendered females (male to female) wanted to join and I remember the rampant gender stereotypes and excuses then, and it frustrates me to hear it all again.



Some women are better fighters then men, some men are better dancer then women, it all boils down to people, not gender.

[ObserverStatus]

This thread reminds me of an entry I saw in a photoshop contest titled "If video games were realistic".

[Lyssistr]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...
Really? The tournaments I've been in only split by weight class. And anecdotes does not reality for all make.

What sport it is this? when I was younger, in both striking & wrestling sports (in fact only striking, there was no women's division in olympic greco-roman wrestling that I'm aware of) male/female divisions were separate.

Small local tournaments that don't affiliate much with the official rules. My primary style is Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Secondary is Muai Thai. So mostly small scale MMA.

It was started up by some local old-school martial artists, so that may be why they only separate by weight class.

ok I don't know rules for competitive japanese jujitsu. Muai Thai I haven't trained but I knew people who trained at it and competed in tournament and I remember different divisions for m/f.

I'm not trying to argue if you're good at what you do, nor am I familiar with competitive japanese jujitsu rules but from my perspective e.g. in boxing separate divisions are needed. In greco-roman there were no girls tournaments anyhow.

Since mma has different divisions for men & women, I take it that a gap is there in minimal rule bare hands fighting as well.

[Ciryx]

Lyssistr wrote...

Ciryx wrote...

Imo that depends a lot on the fighting style. If u look into the eastern fighting techniques, that specifially developed for  weaker or smaller people, it gets very very different.
If u compare a fistfight that is restricted to fightingstyles that support raw strenght/bodymass/stamina u are right. But this is kind of an silly comparison to begin with, if it favours one of the two groups by its restriction. (the fightingstyle in this case)

I hadn't done training in an eastern technique/style, in what I trained & competed at, divisions were different and I find it just. It's not only boxing rules, in greco-roman as well men have a significant advantage.

In any case e.g. in mma events, where athletes of all styles compete, they separate male & female divisions, so I take it in "bare hands" fighting divisions do need a separation as well. 

Ye, greco-roman originated from ancient greek. And back in greek society woman were the ones to keep the house tidy and man did all the stereotypical "manly" things. Woman werent even aloud to watch the early olympics, cause it was "mans turf".
So it isnt very surprising that fightingstyles that have there roots there tend to focus on raw bodystreght etc. considering how the male body develops a lot more muscles than the female one.

So ye, i agree with you that there should be a seperation in the "bare hands" fighting division.
Overall i must add that it was a pleasnt surprise to discuss with you, it always was very matter of factly and neither of us had a fixed opinion. U did considerate what the other one was saying. Thank u for that, tis a rare sight!

Modifié par Ciryx, 31 août 2010 - 09:24 .

[Danjaru]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Personally, I would love to fight him. His Muai Thai against my Muai Thai and Japanese Jiu Jitsu.

Dude, muscle mass and sheer strength don't win a fight. If that was what you were taught to believe, then shame on those who taught you. If that is what you personally believe, then I am ashamed for you.

Sorry to inform you that I don't hit girls. Maybe in friendly sparring cause I don't want to dissrespect the female fighters are my gym.

And Yes, muscle mass and sheer strength coupled with technique, stamina win you a fight, speed is a bonus as technique mostly outweighs speed (At least in my experiances), and mens muscles are stronger than womens even when they weigh the same. But whatever, thought I'd respond to you one last time. Lets get back to topic.

Modifié par Danjaru, 31 août 2010 - 09:25 .

[Clover Rider]

Danjaru wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Personally, I would love to fight him. His Muai Thai against my Muai Thai and Japanese Jiu Jitsu.

Dude, muscle mass and sheer strength don't win a fight. If that was what you were taught to believe, then shame on those who taught you. If that is what you personally believe, then I am ashamed for you.

Sorry to inform you that I don't hit girls. Maybe in friendly sparring cause I don't want to dissrespect the female fighters are my gym.

And Yes, muscle mass and sheer strength coupled with technique, stamina win you a fight, speed is a bonus as technique mostly outweighs speed (At least in my experiances), and mens muscles are stronger than womens even when they weigh the same. But whatever, thought I'd respond to you one last time. Lets get back to topic.

So you have had no real fights with women?

[mllrthyme]

Lyssistr wrote...

*snip*

 In greco-roman there were no girls tournaments anyhow.

Do you think it was because men used to wrestle naked?  Having mixed gender tournaments might be a little distracting to the participants.  (I know that sounds perverse, but there's no nice way to put it)

[CrookedAsylum]

Lyssistr wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...
Really? The tournaments I've been in only split by weight class. And anecdotes does not reality for all make.

What sport it is this? when I was younger, in both striking & wrestling sports (in fact only striking, there was no women's division in olympic greco-roman wrestling that I'm aware of) male/female divisions were separate.

Small local tournaments that don't affiliate much with the official rules. My primary style is Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Secondary is Muai Thai. So mostly small scale MMA.

It was started up by some local old-school martial artists, so that may be why they only separate by weight class.

ok I don't know rules for competitive japanese jujitsu. Muai Thai I haven't trained but I knew people who trained at it and competed in tournament and I remember different divisions for m/f.

I'm not trying to argue if you're good at what you do, nor am I familiar with competitive japanese jujitsu rules but from my perspective e.g. in boxing separate divisions are needed. In greco-roman there were no girls tournaments anyhow.

Since mma has different divisions for men & women, I take it that a gap is there in minimal rule bare hands fighting as well.

It depends on how formal/informal the tournament is, I suppose. The tournaments I compete in are deeply informal, more like a 'family' of martial artists getting together to beat the crap out of each other. Kind of like... one sensei trained with another sensei who is now a master, and their two schools get together every now and again to throw each other around on the asphalt. It grows from there, and so does others' trust in you to bow out if you feel you're too far out of your league.

We still separate by weight class for obvious safety reasons, but not by gender.

[Zevais]

bobobo878 wrote...

This thread reminds me of an entry I saw in a photoshop contest titled "If video games were realistic".

Zevais approves. +16

[Danjaru]

Some Geth wrote...

So you have had no real fights with women?

Well, a few. Mostly ends with me letting them hit me until they get tired of it. Or me grabbing their hands or in some grip until they cool down. Otherwise in sparring I encourage them to go all out, and some of them do, and I act accordingly (don't hit back hard, but defend and whatnot). But I'm a rather big guy, I fight in the heavyweight division, so I'm not one you compare to girls really.

[Lyssistr]

Ciryx wrote...

Ye, greco-roman originated from ancient greek. And back in greek society woman were the ones to keep the house tidy and man did all the stereotypical "manly" things. Woman werent even aloud to watch the early olympics, cause it was "mans turf".
So it isnt very surprising that fightingstyles that have there roots there tend to focus raw bodystreght etc. considering how the male body develops a lot more muscles than the female one.

So ye, i agree with you that there should be a seperation in the "bare hands" fighting division.
Overall i must add that it was a pleasnt surprise to discuss with you, it always was very matter of factly and neither of us had a fixed opinion and did considerate what the other one was saying. Thank u for that, tis a rare sight!

 Actually, today's Greco-Roman rules & style are all from european wrestling styles and has little in common with whatever style the ancient greeks used, there is no trace back to the original rules used by the greeks, except maybe some images on broken vases. So it's not linked to ancient times that women don't participate. Since they do compete in e.g. judo I can guess why by looking at some differences, Greco-Roman needs to start at a young age (max ~14) and training can cause many injuries (especially spine & neck), part of training such as deathlifts etc which may not be healthy for women to take at that age.

 Well thanks  myself I'm happy to chat with someone that reads what I say, instead of paraphrasing me at will, it helps make a discussion.

[Tirigon]

bobobo878 wrote...

This thread reminds me of an entry I saw in a photoshop contest titled "If video games were realistic".

Last time i was at the Doctors I´ve met them all. The domina in front had tooth-ache.

[Zevais]

Danjaru wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

So you have had no real fights with women?

Well, a few. Mostly ends with me letting them hit me until they get tired of it. Or me grabbing their hands or in some grip until they cool down. Otherwise in sparring I encourage them to go all out, and some of them do, and I act accordingly (don't hit back hard, but defend and whatnot). But I'm a rather big guy, I fight in the heavyweight division, so I'm not one you compare to girls really.

My fiance wanted to play bloody knuckles with me for some odd reason. I just laid my fist down so she could hit it until her hand hurt. She didn't want to play again after that. Win for me. I won't actually hit a woman; I live with the curse of a chivalrous nature. It is nice though to know they can hit me and just end up hurting themselves, learn their lesson, and move on.

My fiance is loving this thread too by the way... she thinks the males are fine as they are except Oghren-I tell her he is meant to look drunken. Though I often strip my companions to nakedness for my own amusement.

[Lyssistr]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

It depends on how formal/informal the tournament is, I suppose. The tournaments I compete in are deeply informal, more like a 'family' of martial artists getting together to beat the crap out of each other. Kind of like... one sensei trained with another sensei who is now a master, and their two schools get together every now and again to throw each other around on the asphalt. It grows from there, and so does others' trust in you to bow out if you feel you're too far out of your league.

We still separate by weight class for obvious safety reasons, but not by gender.

 Tournaments I watched them participate in were quite formal, some international, one is a professional these days.

[Hollingdale]

Who cares about Mhua Thai or any style for that matter, they all lose to MMA, and while muscle mass and size may not be decisive if there's a great gap in skill, it is if there isn't however.

Women also lack the agression and competiveness that men possess I would bet my hat that women would lose to men in fights even if they were equal in strenght and size for this reason.

Regarding the original thread subject I strongly dislike the sexism that is present in nearly all videogames but let's remember that not only do the women in games seem to represent some kind of basement dweller's wet dream ideal the men to are highly idealized in that they are all bodybuilders with identical six packs.

Seriously a relatively mature franchise like Dragon Age shouldn't suffer from **** like this. Please start making realistic character models with a realistic array of body types ranging from fat to slim, muscular and accountant. It would honestly help define characters a lot more if their bodies were as unique as their faces.

Modifié par Hollingdale, 31 août 2010 - 09:37 .

[Tirigon]

finnugold wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

At any rate, adding female oriented eye candy would not make male oriented eye candy stand out less.

Like silicone, steroids probably haven't been invented in Thedas either. My concern is for realism, not fairness.

*Gag* His face makes him look like he's 15. Sorry, not for me. Course, I have an aversion to anything twilight. KEEP IT AWAY, IT BURNS!

Good job quoting it if you want to make it disappear....

[Laine the Wise]

Sejborg wrote...

You don't think it is beaking reality to have a female warrior?

I agree that immersion is vital for a RPG. But I don't think boobs is the biggest problem. It is weird how much time gamers is using to make their avatars look like a Hollywood movie. I do so myself. But Origins was about fighting monsters all day, every day. And here we have girls with makeup and what not, and people
complaining that there is not enough haircuts. My self included. People running around looking like a movie star didn't seem to be proplem then. And we still want our Avatars to look like Monica Belucci, Viggo Mortenson or someone else pretty. 

Sure Monica Belucci wouldn't last long in a fight, but tell me one female who would? Are we to simply remove the female party member, because when all is said and done, no one really believes a female to be as strong, as the warden? Heck I don't even believe a man to be as strong as the warden. That is simple
unbelievable. If it was to a be a tiny bit believable, you would have ridicously ugly characters, with scars all over, wounds with infection and then we would have to wave our Hollywood avatars goodbye. 

I prefer the fantasy where the men look like Viggo, and the women look like Monica. When all that is said and done, I would like if there where different body shapes. But we know Bioware won't do that, so therefore they are making it possible for us to make our Hollywood avatars. And besides, not all NPC's will look like Beth in her chain corset. Just look how she looks in her blue mage robe:

http://www.gamersplu...da207_35865.jpg

I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but unless I'm way off base it seems to be somewhat counter-productive. It's clear to me that quite a few people believe that what seems to be exaggerated body proportions is not the epitome of beauty. I'll say again that I don't have anything against people with larger-than-average breasts like Christina Hendricks--not at all, really--but people with her measurements or similar measurements are far from being common.

And this is where it comes down to the "female warriors break realism, so why can't we have an exaggerated bust size?" aspect. Female soldiers may not have been so easily accepted in our own universe, but it isn't necessary to apply that point of view to Thedas. I know that statement may make me out to sound like a hypocritical bastard to some people, but that's not really true. That aspect of the game, in terms of lore, is made to be that way due to the designers' preferrence and rightly so--it makes perfect sense that at least Ferelden allows female soldiers; they aren't exactly bending the laws of reality. I'd even say that it is completely feasible to believe that if certain segments of humanity had taken a different approach to warfare much earlier we would have had a similar situation here to the one in Ferelden, as female soldiers both did and do exist.

But ultimately, that has little to do with genetics--something that most people can't alter and could not have altered in the past. Obviously, humans in Thedas are made after their real-life counterparts, and naturally I would assume that, ultimately, the same laws of science apply to them. That is where the "unrealistic proportions" issue arises. I think that for most people here, it isn't necessarily the issue of "uncommon breast sizes being the norm" alone, but more that the overall design of the men and women in the game are not exactly true to their focus. Granted, artists may be free to take artistic liberties and run with them, but that doesn't mean that they will make sense in the end, and especially not without some sort of written explanation. If by the the time the game is launched every featured person has an exaggerated bust size or abdominal muscles, that is going to be an easy cause for suspension of disbelief; something I would opt to avoid if possible.

To be clear, I'm not saying that I expect BioWare is even in a position to somehow correct the gripe, or that they haven't already. But if they can't or won't it's still going to be an issue, and not least of all with the female audience. It may seem like a ridiculous thing to complain about at first glance, but it really does make sense. Immersion is usually an important factor in an RPG's design, and I'd say that this issue--in my own opinion--is relevant to that, and is particularly important. Variety is the spice of life.

[finnugold]

Tirigon wrote...
Good job quoting it if you want to make it disappear....

I was being silly. Some people do that so their soul-crushing lives don't force them into a deep depression. You should try it sometime.

[Danjaru]

Zevais wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

So you have had no real fights with women?

Well, a few. Mostly ends with me letting them hit me until they get tired of it. Or me grabbing their hands or in some grip until they cool down. Otherwise in sparring I encourage them to go all out, and some of them do, and I act accordingly (don't hit back hard, but defend and whatnot). But I'm a rather big guy, I fight in the heavyweight division, so I'm not one you compare to girls really.

My fiance wanted to play bloody knuckles with me for some odd reason. I just laid my fist down so she could hit it until her hand hurt. She didn't want to play again after that. Win for me. I won't actually hit a woman; I live with the curse of a chivalrous nature. It is nice though to know they can hit me and just end up hurting themselves, learn their lesson, and move on.

My fiance is loving this thread too by the way... she thinks the males are fine as they are except Oghren-I tell her he is meant to look drunken. Though I often strip my companions to nakedness for my own amusement.

Oghren should've been pot bellied, he drinks way to much to have that sixpack <.<.. I hope they have those types of builds for men. Making Hawke built like Lloyd'd be so awesome.

[ObserverStatus]

finnugold wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Good job quoting it if you want to make it disappear....

I was being silly. Some people do that so their soul-crushing lives don't force them into a deep depression. You should try it sometime.

Erm... thank you finnugold.  Does anyone else have something they'd like to share?

[Lyssistr]

Hollingdale wrote...

Who cares about Mhua Thai or any style for that matter, they all lose to MMA, and while muscle mass and size may not be decisive if there's a great gap in skill, it is if there isn't however.

MMA athletes are well trained in a variety of conditions, but they all have a base style, so this is quite irrelevant. Fedor has sambo, Mark Ker, Mark Colleman and Couture were olympic wrestlers, mirko crocop was a K1 kickboxer, Nogueira was bjj and also olympic boxing (he's won a brazilian championship). These guys are simply trained in everything and are good almost everywhere, but they do have a base style. 

[Lyssistr]

mllrthyme wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

*snip*

 In greco-roman there were no girls tournaments anyhow.

Do you think it was because men used to wrestle naked?  Having mixed gender tournaments might be a little distracting to the participants.  (I know that sounds perverse, but there's no nice way to put it)

No I think because training starts at young ages (~14) and is dangerous for the spine (deathlifts, bridges etc) and some of that may not be healthy for girls at that age, especially death lifts.

You can't do greco-roman without building the specific sort of physique that is required and building it takes exercises that are not girl friendly, unlike other sports.

Edit: also these days men don't wrestle naked !

Modifié par Lyssistr, 31 août 2010 - 09:49 .

[CrookedAsylum]

Hollingdale wrote...

Who cares about Mhua Thai or any style for that matter, they all lose to MMA, and while muscle mass and size may not be decisive if there's a great gap in skill, it is if there isn't however.

Women also lack the agression and competiveness that men possess I would bet my hat that women would lose to men in fights even if they were equal in strenght and size for this reason.

Regarding the original thread subject I strongly dislike the sexism that is present in nearly all videogames but let's remember that not only do the women in games seem to represent some kind of basement dweller's wet dream ideal the men to are highly idealized in that they are all bodybuilders with identical six packs.

Seriously a relatively mature franchise like Dragon Age shouldn't suffer from **** like this. Please start making realistic character models with a realistic array of body types ranging from fat to slim, muscular and accountant. It would honestly help define characters a lot more if their bodies were as unique as their faces.

Obviously you know very little about how vicious a style Japanese Jiu Jitsu is. As for women lacking aggression, have you ever watched womens rugby? And I suppose the people I've beaten in full contact fights were secretly non-existent. Or, perhaps, I am a man.

In it for the adrenalin rush, yo. And I'm extremely competitive to the point of blind, instinctual rage.

And what defines mixed martial arts is just that; a mixture of multiple martial arts. Technically, my martial arts is mixed. And, no, there is no great gap in skill. Men are not inherently better than women at something, and the same goes vice versa. Yes, it is easier for men to build up muscle mass. Yes, on average, men are stronger than women. Also on average, women have stronger legs and hips than men. (Yes, I took on Muai Thai to take advantage of that fact)

Please don't make sweeping generalizations that a man will also beat a woman in a fight, particularly if a woman is trained well to play up her strengths.

But on topic, I agree with you on the character models. I am all for more realistic ones.

[Danjaru]

Hollingdale wrote...

Who cares about Mhua Thai or any style for that matter, they all lose to MMA, and while muscle mass and size may not be decisive if there's a great gap in skill, it is if there isn't however.

Women also lack the agression and competiveness that men possess I would bet my hat that women would lose to men in fights even if they were equal in strenght and size for this reason.

Regarding the original thread subject I strongly dislike the sexism that is present in nearly all videogames but let's remember that not only do the women in games seem to represent some kind of basement dweller's wet dream ideal the men to are highly idealized in that they are all bodybuilders with identical six packs.

Seriously a relatively mature franchise like Dragon Age shouldn't suffer from **** like this. Please start making realistic character models with a realistic array of body types ranging from fat to slim, muscular and accountant. It would honestly help define characters a lot more if their bodies were as unique as their faces.

Most good MMA fighters train a standing style and then a ground style, one of the more popular is Muay Thai for standing and BJJ for ground game. So you can't say "they all lose to MMA" as MMA utilizes them together and is not a style in itself.

And I agree, sliders for body type for you character and different body types for NPC's would've been good. Age of Conan did this well, you could do a skinny character or a butch or fat one, but they all looked in shape enough to be able to pass as Warriors.

Modifié par Danjaru, 31 août 2010 - 09:58 .

[mllrthyme]

Lyssistr wrote...

mllrthyme wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

*snip*

 In greco-roman there were no girls tournaments anyhow.

Do you think it was because men used to wrestle naked?  Having mixed gender tournaments might be a little distracting to the participants.  (I know that sounds perverse, but there's no nice way to put it)

No I think because training starts at young ages (~14) and is dangerous for the spine (deathlifts, bridges etc) and some of that may not be healthy for girls at that age, especially death lifts.

You can't do greco-roman without building the specific sort of physique that is required and building it takes exercises that are not girl friendly, unlike other sports.

Edit: also these days men don't wrestle naked !

I know, but it's just difficult to inject joking wistfulness into text.  Also I bow to your superior knowledge of wrestling as I will admit I know almost next to nothing.