154 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Now aiming is the most basic aspect of how to use a gun.

Yes, but there's no reason why we should have to aim and fire in real time.

Let us aim and fire while paused, just like tech and biotic powers, and this player skill problem goes away.

[Siegdrifa]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Now aiming is the most basic aspect of how to use a gun.

Yes, but there's no reason why we should have to aim and fire in real time.

Let us aim and fire while paused, just like tech and biotic powers, and this player skill problem goes away.

You don't need pause to use tech and biotic power, the pause is here to give optimum comfort, but if you are looking for challenge, you can do everything without a single pause.

They choose with good reason to not select target / target part with a pause, i'm sorry but it's not an irrelevant desicion. You would have prefered a pause system but they can't satisfy everybody.
They clearly choose to use an "action kind" game play, after you make that choice, "pause system for each targeting phase" is a bad choice.
(i'm not saying pause system for targeting is bad, huh, i say it doesn't serve the choice they made for this game).

People who want's to eat chocolate shouldn't buy coffee and complain later that this "chocolate" taste like coffee.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Don't use logic to support your point and then abandon it for arbitrary divisions as soo as it becomes inconvenient to the point you'r trying to make.

But even if I accept what you say, by your reasoning they shouldn't have included a tactical pause at all.

[t-dave]

Siegdrifa wrote...
People who want's to eat chocolate shouldn't buy coffee and complain later that this "chocolate" taste like coffee.

On the other hand, if I really enjoyed the nice hot chocolate I got from them the first time, and they served up coffee in my second cup, I have every right to be surprised.

Even if I did grow to enjoy both... 

[Siegdrifa]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Don't use logic to support your point and then abandon it for arbitrary divisions as soo as it becomes inconvenient to the point you'r trying to make.
But even if I accept what you say, by your reasoning they shouldn't have included a tactical pause at all.

I'm not abandoning anything.

I have nothing agains tactical pause for every action, i just find it not suited for ME2 because this feature is more for turn based action.

And don't say that by my reasoning they shouldn't have included tactical pause at all because here it is used not as an obligation but as comfort.
This is really different than a tactical pause required for every targeting with gun / part you want to aim. If you force the combat to stop at every action, you are not serving a "real time action" game designe. If you let choose the player to pause, then it's fine because it will be used only by a need, so you don't feel a "break" in the action is forced BY the game, and if you have enough experience and don't want to use any pause at all, you can do so.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 01 septembre 2010 - 11:41 .

[Siegdrifa]

t-dave wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...
People who want's to eat chocolate shouldn't buy coffee and complain later that this "chocolate" taste like coffee.

On the other hand, if I really enjoyed the nice hot chocolate I got from them the first time, and they served up coffee in my second cup, I have every right to be surprised.

Even if I did grow to enjoy both... 

Yeah, i got this feeling sometimes with music band, when they realese an album that each song match the styl you want to hear, and next album everything is different.
At first you want to blame them because their music is not suited anymor, you feel they betray you because they dumbed down their style.

In the end, the best you can do is give constructiv feed back and let them poursue their way. May be they will find a new public for them to keep going on their new way. At a certain point, it's selfish to ask from other people you don't even know to feed your needs the way you want. People don't realise that sometimes, the artist don't perceiv his work the same way you perceiv it. And when the artist succeed to get what he really want, it become different from your perception, then you realise you don't understand him...

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:08 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Siegdrifa wrote...

I'm not abandoning anything.

I have nothing agains tactical pause for every action, i just find it not suited for ME2 because this feature is more for turn based action.

Since BioWare has never released a turn-based game (they've all been real-time with tactical pause), that's not really relevant.

Given that they do allow a tactical pause for power use, and further given that it is optional, there's no reason not to have tactical pause for gunplay as well.

[Malanek]

If you paused between each shot the game would be incredibly slow and tedious. I don't think you should be allowed to pause to aim your powers but I don't care because you can play whichever way you like. What I am concerned about is the lack of hot keys to change weapons and the number of hotkey slots if we start at level 30 for ME3.

[KainrycKarr]

I understand how even the worst player could have difficulty on casual, but I'll hold my tongue.



Just practice. The game is worth it. Is there something specific you have trouble with?

[Siegdrifa]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


Given that they do allow a tactical pause for power use, and further given that it is optional, there's no reason not to have tactical pause for gunplay as well.

If the player doesn't feel forced to "break" the action going on, i agree or at least i don't care.
I play in ME2 the way i want to, if it's possible  to include some feature that allow you to play the way you want without interfering with how i play, it would be nice ( i don't get any happyness from people that doesn't enjoy the game they buy).

But may be Bioware choose to dodge what happened to Fallout3.
Their v.a.t.s. was perceived in so many ways by players, some saying it was boring, some other not usefull, other said it was totaly out of context, and some other like me who enjoy it when it's usefull.

When hybrid game are made, sometimes the public can't take the game for what it is and complain about what the game should have been. Some people think Fallout is a bad FPS with some RPG ellement, some other think it's it could have been a great RPG without this spoiled FPS shooter. Some other say that it's a shame to call it Fallout.

Or may be Bioware etablished that the pause you usualy choose to use power or switch weapon was the most they will allow you to do because they wanted their shooter to be as dynamic as possible and stoped in case of necessity.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 02 septembre 2010 - 01:31 .

[KainrycKarr]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


Given that they do allow a tactical pause for power use, and further given that it is optional, there's no reason not to have tactical pause for gunplay as well.

If the player doesn't feel forced to "break" the action going on, i agree.

But may be they choose to dodge what happened to Fallout3.
Their v.a.t.s. was perceived in so many ways by players, some saying it was boring, some other not usefull, other said it totaly out of context, and some other like me who enjoy it when it's usefull.

When hybrid game are made, sometimes the public can't take the game for what it is and complain about what the game should have been. Some people think Fallout is a bad FPS with some RPG ellement, some other think it's it could have been a great RPG without this spoiled FPS shooter. Some other say that it's a shame to call it Fallout.

What's important is that both games were very successful, FO3 extremely so.

It's gotta be hard for developers to keep that in mind when seeing all the complaints on forums like these, yet seeing the commercial success at the same time.

They have to figure out what complaints will make the game better if worked, and which ones might move the game from popular all around, to popular only to a specific group of players, which makes it less successful.

[Hathur]

I'm not ridiculing the OP here... but I just tried the game on easiest setting for the first time (I've only ever played on insanity).... for the life of me I do not understand how a person dies on the easiest setting... I had shep stand out in the open (not in cover) with 4 vorcha firing at me... it took 26 seconds of me standing there to die from their gunfire.... all 4 shooting at me (I had my squad mates hide further away so I was the pure focus of the enemy).



Are you standing out in the open and not firing at enemies? Even if you don't know how to go behind cover and have awful aim, you shouldn't really be dying except vs bosses...



Can you explain in better detail what you're doing so we can give advice? On casual, if you go behind cover you should be able to never die except perhaps vs bosses or krogans (they try to move to melee range.. but even krogans on casual die after 7 or 8 pistol rounds).

[Roth]

I agree with the OP. I don't play shooters per say but I went with Mass Effect because the story seemed interesting and it's Bioware.

Mass Effect was fairly simple and I started ME2 directly after it. The difference in difficulty was big and a couple of shots are enough to take down the shield. It seems I think more about where the best cover is than how to kill the enemies all of a sudden

Still, I love ME2 and so far I think it's better than the first one.

[kalle90]

Malanek999 wrote...

If you paused between each shot the game would be incredibly slow and tedious. I don't think you should be allowed to pause to aim your powers but I don't care because you can play whichever way you like. What I am concerned about is the lack of hot keys to change weapons and the number of hotkey slots if we start at level 30 for ME3.

QFT. I can't believe someone would want to play with that kind of pauses, although it would be logical that weapon select allows you to aim the same way biotic select does.

I still haven't adjusted to use the hotkeys so I have no problem with that. They could easily turn the melee button into another hotkey button though as well as make a quick tap of aim button work as a hotkey

[Daemonbane1]

In my opinion aiming with tactical pause only has one purpose, its a difficulty modifier. the only reason the pause is used is for when a fight is too hard in real time you have the option to freeze, look at your situation and decide how to procede.

3 reasons it works as it does
1) Using it as a primary combat method would make the game less appealing to shooter fans and decrease the overall market for the game.
2) In order to fire from this mode 2 different animations would be needed the real time 'dynamic' animation set (running and shooting simultaniously, ducking out of cover to shoot) and the tactical 'static' set (standing snd shooting, croucing and shooting, etc.), some animations could be used twice but mostly workload is increased. and this results in...
3) copyright issues. If 'planned' shooting is allowed from a this mode it closes the gap between this system and FO3's VATS system, leaving bioware open for possible law suits etc.

summarily - theres alot of good reasons for leaving it the way it is and in fact making those decisions in the first place. If you dont like the game then play something else or , if you're up for it, learn how to mod the game to play how you want and maybe someone will thank you for it later, just dont complain that your way is the only way because aLOT of people will dissaggree.

Modifié par Daemonbane1, 02 septembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Jensonagain]

Magnus_The_Red wrote...

Before some of you begin laughing at me, let me tell you this; I have never been good at shooters. I have always been a RTS gamer. So what you find easy, I find hard.

The difficulty in ME1 was fine to me. This is because the game controls and mechanics were simple but not too basic. Not too easy for it to be boring, but not too hard for it to be stressful. An overall nicely balanced game.

But ME2 on the other hand is not. It seems even the most basic enemies in the game to to have lots of shields, tons of armour and large amounts of health. And they always moving/ducking so that roughly 75% of my shots miss. Although this is also because it seems you have to much, much, much more percise with your aiming compaed to ME1. None of this is helped by the fact that Bioware has the nerve to also make ammunition limited.
There are other problems as well; such as not being able to heal yourself, a pathetic shield/health bar, useless Squad A.I, ect.

I could go on but I think i've made my overall point.

I'm not surprised, bioware sucks at understanding wtf easy means.

****ing egotistical **** heads of devs.

[gethslayer7]

just practice

[Sylvius the Mad]

kalle90 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

If you paused between each shot the game would be incredibly slow and tedious. I don't think you should be allowed to pause to aim your powers but I don't care because you can play whichever way you like. What I am concerned about is the lack of hot keys to change weapons and the number of hotkey slots if we start at level 30 for ME3.

QFT. I can't believe someone would want to play with that kind of pauses, although it would be logical that weapon select allows you to aim the same way biotic select does.

And yet, that's exactly how I would like to play.  And since it's logical that we be able to do it (as you agree), that was can't ir really annoying.

If there were no pausing in ME2 I would be asking for any, because it just wouldn't be that kind of game.  But it is that kind of game, just really inconsistently implemented.

Daemonbane1 wrote...

In my opinion aiming with tactical pause only has one purpose, its a difficulty modifier. the only reason the pause is used is for when a fight is too hard in real time you have the option to freeze, look at your situation and decide how to procede.

It also changes the style of gameplay, and some people simply prefer a different sort of combat experience.

Aiming while paused can produce combat that is quite a calm and sedate experience (as opposed to the frantic action of shooter combat), and I quite like my gaming experience to be calm and sedate.  It's exciting for my character, but my character is not me (my character is, of course, unaware of the pausing).

1) Using it as a primary combat method would make the game less appealing to shooter fans and decrease the overall market for the game.

Don't market it as the primary combat method.  Talk about the action-shooter aspects.  As mentioned, firing like this (particular with any weapon that wasn't a sniper rifle) would be fairly tedious, so people wouldn't do it.

2) In order to fire from this mode 2 different animations would be needed the real time 'dynamic' animation set (running and shooting simultaniously, ducking out of cover to shoot) and the tactical 'static' set (standing snd shooting, croucing and shooting, etc.), some animations could be used twice but mostly workload is increased.

Why would you need new animations?  Just pause the existing animations.  There's no need for new animations at all.

3) copyright issues. If 'planned' shooting is allowed from a this mode it closes the gap between this system and FO3's VATS system, leaving bioware open for possible law suits etc.

Given that Splinter Cell already used a feature like this, I somehow doubt that Bethesda has such an all-encompassing copyright.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[cachx]

I think we should count our blessings and appreciate that the tactical pause feature is still there. Any pure action game would scratch his head at something like that, because it breaks the flow and the intensity, something that action games depend heavily on.

That's why action games tend to be short, or played in short bursts. Too much and it becomes tiring, even overwhelming. ME2 prevents this by having lots of conversation breaks, grocery shopping, upgrading, etc.

[LPPrince]

Why would anyone want to pause to shoot or set up shots like that?

It'd make the game way too long and way too easy. The second you have line of sight on an enemy, you'd get instant headshots and would probably never even get hit. It'd be the equivalent to an aimbot.

Pausing is fine, but pausing to line up a shot is ridiculous.

In my case, I pause the game when I'm going to use a biotic power. The difference between pausing for biotics and pausing for shooting is that biotics are SECONDARY.

There's a reason everyone has a gun but everyone doesn't have biotics.

Look at Adepts for example. If they were meant to use nothing but biotics, they wouldn't have access to pistols and SMG's. You are meant to shoot people.

Pausing was put into the ME series so you could play the game like chess. Analyze the situation, set up what you're going to do, and then do it.

For those of you who've seen my Firepower DLC reviews and watched Part 2(where all the action was), you'll notice that I paused to focus a shot ONCE.

It was the final headshot with the Phalanx pistol to the third YMIR Mech. And believe it or not, that wasn't even intentional.

If pausing to line up shots was like that, the game would be over 150 hours long.

That is INSANE.

Modifié par LPPrince, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:01 .

[scottelite]

Jensonagain wrote...

Magnus_The_Red wrote...

Before some of you begin laughing at me, let me tell you this; I have never been good at shooters. I have always been a RTS gamer. So what you find easy, I find hard.

The difficulty in ME1 was fine to me. This is because the game controls and mechanics were simple but not too basic. Not too easy for it to be boring, but not too hard for it to be stressful. An overall nicely balanced game.

But ME2 on the other hand is not. It seems even the most basic enemies in the game to to have lots of shields, tons of armour and large amounts of health. And they always moving/ducking so that roughly 75% of my shots miss. Although this is also because it seems you have to much, much, much more percise with your aiming compaed to ME1. None of this is helped by the fact that Bioware has the nerve to also make ammunition limited.
There are other problems as well; such as not being able to heal yourself, a pathetic shield/health bar, useless Squad A.I, ect.

I could go on but I think i've made my overall point.

I'm not surprised, bioware sucks at understanding wtf easy means.

****ing egotistical **** heads of devs.

Yeah, it's their fault you can't play third person shooters.

jk

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

Wait, so the game should require NO aiming skill by the player? What game are we talking about again?



I will agree that ME2 DEMANDS the use of cover to NOT die and in ME1 cover was a good suggestion. I think a lot of ME2s difficulty stems from the very easy to screw up cover system controls.... I find myself frustratingly killing myself in a heated battle simply due to the cotnrol system using the same buttons to do different actions....it's easy to get confused and do the wrong thing....and quickly die..

[Sylvius the Mad]

Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...

I think a lot of ME2s difficulty stems from the very easy to screw up cover system controls.... I find myself frustratingly killing myself in a heated battle simply due to the cotnrol system using the same buttons to do different actions....it's easy to get confused and do the wrong thing....and quickly die..

There's no good reason why any button is used for more than one thing.  That's just poor design.

But it's also a different discussion.

[Sylvius the Mad]

LPPrince wrote...

Why would anyone want to pause to shoot or set up shots like that?

To eliminate the player's aiming skill as a variable.

I'd much rather Shepard's aiming skill determine her accuracy.

It'd make the game way too long and way too easy. The second you have line of sight on an enemy, you'd get instant headshots and would probably never even get hit.

As the levels are currently designed, yes, probably.

I don't really see that as a problem.  I don't play BioWare's games for the combat.

Look at Adepts for example. If they were meant to use nothing but biotics, they wouldn't have access to pistols and SMG's. You are meant to shoot people.

My ME1 biotic hardly ever shot people.  She'd just Lift people and let her suadmates shoot them.

Pausing was put into the ME series so you could play the game like chess. Analyze the situation, set up what you're going to do, and then do it.

Hence the ability to pause between every single action.

If pausing to line up shots was like that, the game would be over 150 hours long.

Nothing wrong with that.