238 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Garrus]

I see the illusive man is the enemy of my enemy, so i work with him. I don't agree with what he does, but his resources are needed to take out the collectors.

[heretica]

Read Retribution! D:

[MisterDyslexo]

ExtremeOne wrote...

I find it funny how people buy into the alliance and Council's bullsh*t in ME 1. the council does not give a dam about Shepard they only are pissed because he was brought back by Cerberus.

Of course they don't care about him. the only reason he became a spectre was so he could hunt down Saren, a council-appointed gone rogue, destroying an entire human colony, who was planning to attack many more. You don't think they'd want to cover that up? They're covering their asses, through and through. Thats politics.
"The politicians in with the highest offices are oft the ones with the deepest pockets"

[Moiaussi]

ExtremeOne wrote...

I find it funny how people buy into the alliance and Council's bullsh*t in ME 1. the council does not give a dam about Shepard they only are pissed because he was brought back by Cerberus.

So because the Council are guilty of crimes, Cerberus is innocent of other crimes? Try that one in court some time...  Your honour, I plead innocent on the grounds that others besides myself have committed unrelated crimes. That they have not yet been caught or charged proves I am innocent!

Try that.

Tell us how it works for you.

[MisterDyslexo]

I don't know about the council, but there are a lot more crimes you can stick on cerberus. Probably the biggest few are screwing with Rachnai, a war so bad that they essentially and knowingly committed a race to the cause that would create another galactic war, and keeping that collector base to themselves (you don't think that is evidence of the reapers?)

[ExtremeOne]

Moiaussi wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

I find it funny how people buy into the alliance and Council's bullsh*t in ME 1. the council does not give a dam about Shepard they only are pissed because he was brought back by Cerberus.

So because the Council are guilty of crimes, Cerberus is innocent of other crimes? Try that one in court some time...  Your honour, I plead innocent on the grounds that others besides myself have committed unrelated crimes. That they have not yet been caught or charged proves I am innocent!

Try that.

Tell us how it works for you.

  



I never said nothing about that but Cerberus was a part of the alliance that means any crimes that happen are also on the alliance's hands as well. ME 2 proved just how much the alliance and the council care about Shepard and thats ZERO. they used him as a slave to take saren out because no one else could and now after 2 years they b*tch about him being brought back by Cerberus yeah so much for saying thank you or anything else. they only want him back so he can be their slave. hell at least in Cerberus Shepard does not some stupid title to do what ever it takes to get the job done. The alliance are not angels and the council is 3 racist pricks.  yeah when are we going to talk about their past oh thats right in this forum they are the almighty do gooders. 

[Katamariguy]

Sajuro wrote...
TIM's outfit is a crime against fashion

Really? I think it's the most stylish in the game.

[MisterDyslexo]

ExtremeOne wrote...

 


ME 2 proved just how much the alliance and the council care about Shepard and thats ZERO. they used him as a slave...

Yeah, thats called being a soldier and taking orders

[Zan51]

^ What they said as I know quite a few Soldiers and Navy folk.

[heretica]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

 


ME 2 proved just how much the alliance and the council care about Shepard and thats ZERO. they used him as a slave...

Yeah, thats called being a soldier and taking orders

TIM is using Shepard aswell. In the end, Shepard is like a tool :/ 

[Moiaussi]

ExtremeOne wrote...

I never said nothing about that but Cerberus was a part of the alliance that means any crimes that happen are also on the alliance's hands as well. ME 2 proved just how much the alliance and the council care about Shepard and thats ZERO. they used him as a slave to take saren out because no one else could and now after 2 years they b*tch about him being brought back by Cerberus yeah so much for saying thank you or anything else. they only want him back so he can be their slave. hell at least in Cerberus Shepard does not some stupid title to do what ever it takes to get the job done. The alliance are not angels and the council is 3 racist pricks.  yeah when are we going to talk about their past oh thats right in this forum they are the almighty do gooders. 

Lol, this thread is about Cerberus' crimes. If you want to discuss Alliance crimes, or Council crimes, or little old lady in a cubicle on Illium's crimes, start a thread about them.

What you are really saying is that you have no actual defence of Cerberus, so you are going to try changing the topic entirely. Glad to hear you admit to Cerberus's attrocities.

[Gibb_Garrus]

Catt128 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

 


ME 2 proved just how much the alliance and the council care about Shepard and thats ZERO. they used him as a slave...

Yeah, thats called being a soldier and taking orders

TIM is using Shepard aswell. In the end, Shepard is like a tool :/ 

Which is exactly why, if given the option in ME3, i'm going solo to take out the reapers. Political leaders and shady organisations can go get fuked.

[klossen4]

Gibb_Garrus wrote...

Catt128 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

 


ME 2 proved just how much the alliance and the council care about Shepard and thats ZERO. they used him as a slave...

Yeah, thats called being a soldier and taking orders

TIM is using Shepard aswell. In the end, Shepard is like a tool :/ 

Which is exactly why, if given the option in ME3, i'm going solo to take out the reapers. Political leaders and shady organisations can go get fuked.

Well every soldier is really a tool.

[Nightwriter]

It's so cute how people think that if you're anti-Cerberus you're also:

1. Pro-Council
2. Pro-Alliance
3. Naive
4. An ME1 junkie/zealot
5. Unrealistic
6. A hater just for the sake of it
7. A stupid paragon, durr durr

Pfft.

We don't blame the Alliance for Akuze because it's highly doubtful that the Alliance had much direct oversight on the project. Cerberus was probably once again doing what they pleased, and any Alliance officers who were working on thresher maws were probably already Cerberus converts, or soon to be. The bulk of the Alliance was at this point likely nothing more than a neglectful parent remaining unwise to the fact that their child beats up other children when the adults aren't around and makes devious lies to cover it up.

Cerberus is responsible for the deed; the Alliance is responsible for letting it happen.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 31 août 2010 - 09:33 .

[RiouHotaru]

^This



It seems the most common "counter-argument" to Akuze is that since Cerberus was "part of the Alliance" and that therefore it's directly the Alliance's fault as well, accessory after the fact For all we know Akuze was the reason the Alliance cut ties to Cerberus. But yeah, those of us who are anti-Cerberus have darn good reasons.



Also, Zulu seems to love whenever anyone brings up Chasca, despite the game itself implicating Cerberus in the incident. But since Zulu will never concede the possibility...

[AresXX7]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OMG!!! !!!!!CERBERUS ABDUCTS KITTEHS!!!!!!

I happen to have, on good authority, it was not Cerberus, who was responsible for the kittehs

it was, in fact, TIM's cat (acting of his own accord) based on this photographic evidence




lolz 

[Halo Quea]

[quote]ExtremeOne wrote...

[quote]Halo Quea wrote...

[quote]ExtremeOne wrote...

[quote]anmiro wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]anmiro wrote...

Cerberus was a apart of the Alliance and Akuze was their operation.

Point to where I call Cerberus "Rogue" and you win a cookie.
[/quote]

So why not call it "the Alliance's crimes"?

That would include all the Cerberus crimes, plus the very creation of Cerberus, plus the crimes Cerberus has no relation to. You'd get a bigger list...[/quote]

You could argue that the Alliance is just as much to blame for Akuze as Cerberus. But the Alliance isn't responsible for every crime Cerberus committed after the Alliance kicked them out on their asses.
[/quote]   


Oh the hell they are because as the story goes Cerberus was once part of the alliance so in fact the alliance has committed those crimes as well. its high time you and the rest of the alliance fans wake up and start dealing with the fact Cerberus did nothing wrong in ME 1 because they were part of the alliance. Its only you die hard ME 1 fans that keep this stupid myth going about Cerberus being evil 
[/quote]

Really?  Have you read Retribution yet?   Because that book was a game changer for me on my outlook on Cerberus and TIM.    

[/quote


No but then again I am not interested in the books 
[/quote]

You should read them, they're canon after all and one always comes before the next ME game.   So they do a good job of setting up the framework for the next gaming chapter.  And if you read them, your view of Cerberus and the Illusive Man WILL most certainly change as mine did.

I was never a Cerberus cheerleader, but I always thought, "Here's an organization that's committed to getting the job done no matter the cost."   I admired that TIM isn't just going to sit on his butt like everyone else and wait for the Reapers to purge the galaxy.  I admired that he WANTS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, instead of worrying about a public panic the way the Citadel governments are. The public SHOULD be panicked.  With the TIM I accepted that he wasn't a hero in the traditional sense,  I accepted that despite himself and his organization, he was simply the man who rose to the occasion.

But after the last two novels, I can see that TIM is just as dangerous to humanity as the Reapers.  He and his organization have gone ALOT further down the dark path than the last novel.  ME2 just focused on his dealings with Shepard, but elsewhere TIM has been getting his hands very bloody.  

And despite his best aspirations and hopes for humanity, his actions in Retribution invokes well know quotations that fit his character perfectly.

"He who fights with monsters should be careful least he thereby becomes
a monster. When you stare at the abyss, the abyss stares back at you." 

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

[AntiChri5]

Cant wait to take Cerberus down in or after ME 3.

[Arijharn]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, Zulu seems to love whenever anyone brings up Chasca, despite the game itself implicating Cerberus in the incident. But since Zulu will never concede the possibility...

The problem Riou is that Chasca is vague... I just did the mission not 30 minutes ago. Sure, Cerberus could be guilty but they also might not be... arguing either side is entirely presumptuous. 

Cerberus is guilty of crimes, but they've also done a lot of good as well, but because they get called terrorists we see yet another one of these threads come up every other week. We don't see a thread coming up every other week telling us that the Council are bastards (they are) nor even the Alliance.

To the OP, do you know why Zulu is so insistent on pointing out that the Alliance is also is at fault with Akuze? It isn't because of some belief that Cerberus is blameless, it's because the Alliance is also to blame. At the most cynical level; Thresher Maw's needed to be tested somehow, and Marines are after all trained to deal with these sort of situations. Virtual Reality training will only ever get you so far. This may sound heartless to you, but you do realise there's a reason why even today a country's military forces train with live ammunition.

Arguing that you can't blame the Alliance to an equal part as Cerberus because the 'alliance might not of known the extent' of marine involvement is frankly ridiculous either way... for the simple reason that you don't know enough about the situation to honestly make any informed opinion. To automatically condemn Cerberus on this account is a kneejerk wholly emotional response -- simply because while Cerberus may not be great people, they don't conduct experiments for the lulz either (what are they; mad scientists complete with evil 'mwah ha ha harr' laughter and hand wringling?) Does this absolve them? Depends really on what their end goal was... even to be the most cynical it's hardly as if they sent them merely to die: perhaps they were testing strategy on Akuze, perhaps they didn't even know what they were dealing with beforehand... who knows?

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

Thresher Maw's needed to be tested somehow

?

[Nahal The Reckless]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Chasca

Not Guilty!

Ambiguous!   At best!

Here are a couple screenshots of stuff that made the situation on Chasca very unambiguous to me.  (The second one in particular.)  Maybe they can do the same for someone else here.

Screenshot 1.
Screenshot 2.

Nightwriter wrote...
We don't blame the Alliance for Akuze
because it's highly doubtful that the Alliance had much direct oversight
on the project. Cerberus was probably once again doing what they
pleased, and any Alliance officers who were working on thresher maws
were probably already Cerberus converts, or soon to be. The bulk of the
Alliance was at this point likely nothing more than a neglectful parent
remaining unwise to the fact that their child beats up other children
when the adults aren't around and makes devious lies to cover it up.

Cerberus is responsible for the deed; the Alliance is responsible for letting it happen.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel about Akuze;  Blame is shared between Cereberus for committing the crime, and the Alliance for letting them.

Modifié par Nahal The Reckless, 31 août 2010 - 03:42 .

[Mr. niceguy15]

Nightwriter wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Thresher Maw's needed to be tested somehow

?

Well then, we should test the effects of reaper indoctrination on humans. Come on guys, let's go round up some unsuspecting civilians!    Come on? The Thresher Maws's obviously kill. No need to waste lives to "find" that out.


- A nice guy.

[Moiaussi]

Its funny... in ME1, Paragons were accused of being blind and naive for trusting the Rachni and for considering the possibility of friendly Geth.

In ME2, Paragons are being derided for distrusting Cerberus.

[RiouHotaru]

Arijharn wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, Zulu seems to love whenever anyone brings up Chasca, despite the game itself implicating Cerberus in the incident. But since Zulu will never concede the possibility...

The problem Riou is that Chasca is vague... I just did the mission not 30 minutes ago. Sure, Cerberus could be guilty but they also might not be... arguing either side is entirely presumptuous. 

Cerberus is guilty of crimes, but they've also done a lot of good as well, but because they get called terrorists we see yet another one of these threads come up every other week. We don't see a thread coming up every other week telling us that the Council are bastards (they are) nor even the Alliance.

To the OP, do you know why Zulu is so insistent on pointing out that the Alliance is also is at fault with Akuze? It isn't because of some belief that Cerberus is blameless, it's because the Alliance is also to blame. At the most cynical level; Thresher Maw's needed to be tested somehow, and Marines are after all trained to deal with these sort of situations. Virtual Reality training will only ever get you so far. This may sound heartless to you, but you do realise there's a reason why even today a country's military forces train with live ammunition.

Arguing that you can't blame the Alliance to an equal part as Cerberus because the 'alliance might not of known the extent' of marine involvement is frankly ridiculous either way... for the simple reason that you don't know enough about the situation to honestly make any informed opinion. To automatically condemn Cerberus on this account is a kneejerk wholly emotional response -- simply because while Cerberus may not be great people, they don't conduct experiments for the lulz either (what are they; mad scientists complete with evil 'mwah ha ha harr' laughter and hand wringling?) Does this absolve them? Depends really on what their end goal was... even to be the most cynical it's hardly as if they sent them merely to die: perhaps they were testing strategy on Akuze, perhaps they didn't even know what they were dealing with beforehand... who knows?

Except that someone already posted two screenshots from the PC version of ME1 which implicate Cerberus as responsible for Chasca.  The logs of the colony indicate that the colony was deliberately exposed by Cerberus, just to see what would happen.  The game makes no vague references or mis-interpretable remarks regarding Chasca.  Which is why I facepalm at Zulu whenever he reposts his thread.  The game itself does not support his claim at all.

[didymos1120]

Nahal The Reckless wrote...

Here are a couple screenshots of stuff that made the situation on Chasca very unambiguous to me.  (The second one in particular.)  Maybe they can do the same for someone else here.

Screenshot 1.
Screenshot 2.

Yeah, I know about those. Ignoring that they are themselves a bit ambiguous ("logs seem to indicate", etc.) and assuming for the sake of argument that they were intended to be conclusive, Bioware may have changed their mind on that.  Miranda's dialogue in ME2 could have been meant to "exonerate" them to a degree.  Or it could just mean Miranda doesn't know all the details and assumes that's what really happened.  Hence, ambiguous. At best.

Personally, I lean towards "guilty" myself,  but I'm not at all certain of that, screenshots or no.

Aside: if you let Feros bite it, the Citadel ads will exhort you to invest in Chasca instead.

Modifié par didymos1120, 31 août 2010 - 05:06 .