238 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

The council destroyed nothing.



The rachni were eradicated by the krogan (=no council race)

[tonnactus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Cerberus hasn't made any kind of hard decisions that deserve any kind of glory. 

Thats right.I never heard or read that the illusive man used members of his own family for cerberus experiments...

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

rachni were about to destroy the whole galaxy

This is irrelevant.

It's about the most relevant point there could possibly be in this debate.

It's about morals and intentions, not what either group has actually done yet.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
seekers and travelers on the path of discovery and self-betterment, ever struggling to become more than our mistakes.

In other words: masters of our own fate. Key word: "masters".

My definition of "master":



Your definition of "master":

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

My definition of "master":



Your definition of "master":

W.. W... Wasn't the Far Far Away Galaxy better of with the Emperor? Wasn't it all predestined?

OK, I have to go feed the kittens.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 septembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Netzach]

Barquiel wrote...

The council destroyed nothing.

The rachni were eradicated by the krogan (=no council race)

The krogans did that because Turians and Salarians ask them to... That makes the Krogans victims of that war.

Modifié par kanuvis, 01 septembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Barquiel]

kanuvis wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The council destroyed nothing.

The rachni were eradicated by the krogan (=no council race)

The krogans did that because Turians and Salarians ask them to... That makes the Krogans victims of that war.

...better than victims of the rachni. The rachni attacked all species in citadel space, not just asari and salarians.

But I really don't know what the rachni war has to do with our council in ME (or with cerberus). The krogan annihilated the rachni 2000 years ago. Do you blame the current italian government for Caesar's war crimes in gaul/germania?
 

[Netzach]

Hey i don't know why everyone is talking about that, don't blame me i didn't bring it into the topic :/

[Barquiel]

kanuvis wrote...

Hey i don't know why everyone is talking about that, don't blame me i didn't bring it into the topic :/

okay^_^

...and the second part wasn't directed at you (or anyone else in particular)

Modifié par Barquiel, 01 septembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

For people who preach necessary actions and hard decisions, and just ruthlessness in general, the Cerberus supporters sure do a lot of squawking about these decisions.

I don't squak at these decisions. Hell, I fully support them! The relevance is that the council's crimes are comparable if not worse than Cerberus'. People go on lengthy details and post multiple threads about Cerberus' crimes and how it needs to be destroyed because they're "Evil" but don't gaze with the same critical eye on the coucil. In fact they go in great detail and whitewash it.  Only renegade or pro-human players relish destroying the council..

The fact remains, that any organization, no matter how noble their intentions are going to make ruthless, self serving decisons. Make no mistake, both Cerberus and the Council have noble goals. Both have the ruthlessness to carry out those goals. I support Cerberus because at the end of the day, they have human interests at heart, while the council will shaft us like they did the quarians. They already indicated this is their direction. Didn't lift a finger to fight the geth in ME1 until the citadel itself was threatened even though the alliance was a council member species. State that having a council seat means that you have to be strong enough to defend their ownselves and not have to beg for help in ME2. That's what Cerberus helps do. Make us strong enough so we can do just that.

Modifié par mosor, 01 septembre 2010 - 12:26 .

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

kanuvis wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The council destroyed nothing.

The rachni were eradicated by the krogan (=no council race)

The krogans did that because Turians and Salarians ask them to... That makes the Krogans victims of that war.

...better than victims of the rachni. The rachni attacked all species in citadel space, not just asari and salarians.

But I really don't know what the rachni war has to do with our council in ME (or with cerberus). The krogan annihilated the rachni 2000 years ago. Do you blame the current italian government for Caesar's war crimes in gaul/germania?
 

Asari live a 1000+ years. It's pretty much within 2 generations.

[Slayer299]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

rachni were about to destroy the whole galaxy

This is irrelevant.

It's about the most relevant point there could possibly be in this debate.

It's about morals and intentions, not what either group has actually done yet.

Nightwriter, its not about morals to Zulu. If it whatever operation Cerberus is doing can theoretically benefit humanity in some way than Zulu seems to believe the gains outweigh the costs (human deaths) or am I wrong Zulu?

[Nightwriter]

Yes, I think you're right.

mosor wrote...

The relevance is that the council's crimes are comparable if not worse than Cerberus'.

But they're not.

In each of the cases given, the Council has been defending the galaxy from destruction. They defended the galaxy imperfectly, but they did it on behalf of everyone, not any one race, and not against a perceived threat, but a real one.

It's the difference between killing a group of people who are attacking you and killing a bunch of people to get a car that goes faster than your intimidating neighbor's. Strike that, a car that might go faster than your intimidating neighbor's.

So if I'm anti-Cerberus, I must expect galactic government to not be self-serving? I laugh. All governments are self-serving. No one is saying the Council is perfect. Just that it's less imperfect than Cerberus.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 01 septembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Employing and enabling Spectres to act without consequences is necessary to defend the galaxy, rather than simply convenient and expedient?

Letting the Geth massacre the Quarians was defending the galaxy?

Ejecting the Quarians, threatening to bomb a disputed colony when the diaspora needed a home most, this was defending the galaxy?

And how was the total Rachni genocide necessary to defend the galaxy? By the time that was even possible, the Rachni lost the space war and could be kept on a planet.

The same goes for the Krogan. The genophage in and of itself did not win the war: it only could affect the next generation of Krogan. The Council had already won the war, and then went on to nearly sterilize the race and stand by for the centuries since.


How are these so right and justified in the name of defense, when Cerberus's stand for human survivalism, a humanity which was unilaterally attacked without provocation by the Council's military arm (a military arm who doesn't even recognize the distinction between military and civilian targets as we do), is not? Especially when Cerberus's acts have never had any of the same scale or scope?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 septembre 2010 - 01:11 .

[Nightwriter]

1. Spectres are cool and therefore exempt from scorn. This logic is infallible.

2. Nope.

3. Nope.

4. We really know nothing about the specifics of the rachni wars, except that they threatened all of Citadel space and were killing everything.

5. Haven't you read planet descriptions of garden worlds that were destroyed because the krogan gobbled them up and used them until they were spent? And what are you talking about? The turians unleashed the genophage, not the Council, and where is it written that they unleashed it after they'd already won the war?

When will people get that the Council are not paragons of virtue in anyone's eyes? It's like American government as opposed to Korean government. If you're telling me American government is perfect and virtuous, you're crazy. I'd still prefer America to Korea.

[Collider]

The Council isn't perfect, but they don't experiment on children. That's the bottomline, really. Cerberus has been doing things for the unnecessary goal of human supremacy, and horrible things at that. The Council's actions, however, can be described as doing what was necessary for galactic stability, with only a few exceptions.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's so cute how people think that if you're anti-Cerberus you're also:

1. Pro-Council
2. Pro-Alliance
3. Naive
4. An ME1 junkie/zealot
5. Unrealistic
6. A hater just for the sake of it
7. A stupid paragon, durr durr

Yeah, I've noticed that.  I think my first post that was critical of Cerberus was replied to as if I were trying to defend the Alliance, and... really... at that point, I'd never said anything about the Alliance.

[didymos1120]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Yeah, I've noticed that.  I think my first post that was critical of Cerberus was replied to as if I were trying to defend the Alliance, and... really... at that point, I'd never said anything about the Alliance.

It kinda reminds me of how creationists think that if they can prove that Darwin was a jerk, then evolution is wrong, they win, and the Earth and/or humanity really is just a few thousand years old. 

[Nightwriter]

Rofl.

[Zulu_DFA]

Slayer299 wrote...
Nightwriter, its not about morals to Zulu. If it whatever operation Cerberus is doing can theoretically benefit humanity in some way than Zulu seems to believe the gains outweigh the costs (human deaths) or am I wrong Zulu?

Wrong. Any benefit to humanity is moral. Any passing up of a potetial benifit to humanity is immoral. Simple as that.

didymos1120 wrote...
It kinda reminds me of how creationists think that if they can prove that Darwin was a jerk, then evolution is wrong, they win, and the Earth and/or humanity really is just a few thousand years old. 

This is way more applicable to anti-Cerberus folks. They think, that if they can prove TIM is a jerk, then Darwin was wrong, and all Humans must get laid with Asari.

If anything, Cerberus is all about Darwinism. There has even been announced a comic series about TIM called Evolution.

So yeah...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 septembre 2010 - 02:53 .

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This is way more applicable to anti-Cerberus folks. They think, that if they can prove TIM is a jerk, then Darwin was wrong, and all Humans must get laid with Asari.

If anything, Cerberus is all about Darwinism. There has even been announced a comic series about TIM called Evolution.

So yeah...

... Darwin was not totally in charge, and thus exclusively responsible, for an organization which does great wrongs at his command.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Any benefit to humanity is moral. Any passing up of a potetial benifit to humanity is immoral. Simple as that.

For one of the Cerberus supporters who often talks about the hard choices and how life isn't as simple as paragons would like to make it, you drastically oversimplify a vast and complicated universe into absolutes of morality that simply do not exist.

I'd also like to add that no one can really define what a "benefit" to humanity even is in the long term. There's no knowing what effect a thing will have. New technology might trigger war with other species. A climb in power might ignite a conflict that kills millions. If TIM had been a krogan at the time of the rachni wars, he would've said the salarians were "benefiting" the krogan by uplifting them and giving them technology with which to advance themselves, yet this action inevitably resulted in the crippling of the entire krogan species.

Like I said. Things are not simple. You cannot kill people and torture children for the sake of a potential gain.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 01 septembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Slayer299]

No, it's not as simple as that. Torture and murder and experimentation in the name of a "potential" benefit for humanity. isn't moral.



Using your morality slider of absolutes is unrealistic and criminal. Because it then would mean if someone from Cerberus kidnapped your family and experimented on them by infecting them with an new/unknown virus to see what happens their actions are justified. Since as you have stated, any benefit to humanity is "moral". Right?

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'd also like to add that no one can really define what a "benefit" to humanity even is in the long term.

There is one thing that is a benefit for sure. It's called survival. Without it, any ather benefit... is not there. So first of all, survival. Surviaval is secured ultimately by accumulation and propagation of power. Once enough power is accumulated and propagated, we can spare some space for a few artists and poets to seek other benefits (in vain, of course), as long as they don't interfere with further accumulation and propagation of power, because it's never enough.

There's no knowing what effect a thing will have.

Right. So let's study them. That's what Cerberus does. It takes strange and dangerous things and studies what effects they have. At remote and isolated locations, by the way.

New technology might trigger war with other species. A climb in power might ignite a conflict that kills millions.

That's what the Alliance is there for: make nice with the aliens. Preferably, it sould cherish less traitorous admirals in its midst.

If TIM had been a krogan at the time of the rachni wars, he would've said the salarians were "benefiting" the krogan by uplifting them and giving them technology with which to advance themselves, yet this action inevitably resulted in the crippling of the entire krogan species.

Krogans are better off now, even with genophage, than they had been before the contact with Salarians. Too bad they were dumb enough to mess with the Council without an "Illusive Krogan" of theirs.

Like I said. Things are not simple. You cannot kill people and torture children for the sake of a potential gain.

Things' not being simple does not excuse the leaders sticking to the same moral codes they impose on the masses. But they never do so anyway.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 septembre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Without spoiling much I can tell you, that in Retribution, Anderson thinks that the Alliance is so heavily "infiltrated" by Cerberus, that, even after all his years of dedicated and distinguished service, he can trust no one.

Ah yes, Anderson, who has negligible politcial experience. If the Alliance really is that heavily infiltrated, then there is no difference between working for Cerberus and the Alliance, so why is that even a question for you?

Especially because Shepard is no longer in the Alliance command structure, it takes a higher ranking dude to contact him.

That makes absolutely no sense. He gets messages from all sorts of people, including civilians.

Still, the Alliance is not known to take any active step against Cerberus. Even when Kahoku, who of his own accord went after Cerberus, and was killed, the Alliance declares that he died "of natural causes", instead of encouraging every citizen to keep vigil and report so much as faint smell of "terrorists" to the nearest lawman.

That is often normal politics, sadly. Organizations occassionally get sufficiently internally corrupt that they don't want any dirty laundry advertized. It is like the reaper or saren issues, but on a smaller scale.

If you are interested, that thread contains a lot of "facts" and their interpretations, and not only mine. I'm not going to repost them all here. I also have nothing against the government in general, or its "Systems Alliance" version.

Among other things you have a lot of misconceptions regarding corporations and government....

[Sajuro]

Cerberus is willing to commit atrocities that may be needed to defeat the reapers, but a problem I have with them is that they would probably go straight to those atrocities instead of trying to win without putting millions of lives up as bait. Whoever is in charge of the fight needs to be unwilling but capable of committing such crimes, they should try all other avenues first and never forget what they did. TIM would be able to justify it as a needed action but nothing like that can be justified, and most of all he would probably be able to sleep after that. That, my cerberus loving friends, is why I support the council.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Without spoiling much I can tell you, that in Retribution, Anderson thinks that the Alliance is so heavily "infiltrated" by Cerberus, that, even after all his years of dedicated and distinguished service, he can trust no one.

Ah yes, Anderson, who has negligible politcial experience. If the Alliance really is that heavily infiltrated, then there is no difference between working for Cerberus and the Alliance, so why is that even a question for you?

It's not a question for me. It's about the "crimes" being as much Cerberus' as they are Alliance's.

Moiaussi wrote...

Especially because Shepard is no longer in the Alliance command structure, it takes a higher ranking dude to contact him.

That makes absolutely no sense. He gets messages from all sorts of people, including civilians.

Right. It makes absolutely no sense. If Sheapard's e-mail is available to civilians he should get 1'000'000 messages daily from Conrad Verners from all over the galaxy. That's why his e-mail is reserved only for high-ranking people (And sometimes it's specified in the e-mails how the sender's been able to obtain it. Still, too much e-mails => ME2 = crap).

Moiaussi wrote...

Still, the Alliance is not known to take any active step against Cerberus. Even when Kahoku, who of his own accord went after Cerberus, and was killed, the Alliance declares that he died "of natural causes", instead of encouraging every citizen to keep vigil and report so much as faint smell of "terrorists" to the nearest lawman.

That is often normal politics, sadly. Organizations occassionally get sufficiently internally corrupt that they don't want any dirty laundry advertized. It is like the reaper or saren issues, but on a smaller scale.

Now, that you understand that, that the Alliance gets infiltrated by Cerberus with pleasure. Maybe you finally admit, that Cerberus' "crimes" (I prefer term "activities") are Alliance's "crimes". Only the Alliance did not corrupt. It was planned that way from the beginning.

Moiaussi wrote...

If you are interested, that thread contains a lot of "facts" and their interpretations, and not only mine. I'm not going to repost them all here. I also have nothing against the government in general, or its "Systems Alliance" version.

Among other things you have a lot of misconceptions regarding corporations and government....

Really? Like what?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 septembre 2010 - 04:20 .