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Cerberus's Crimes


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#126
Halo Quea

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didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Yeah, I've noticed that.  I think my first post that was critical of Cerberus was replied to as if I were trying to defend the Alliance, and... really... at that point, I'd never said anything about the Alliance.


It kinda reminds me of how creationists think that if they can prove that Darwin was a jerk, then evolution is wrong, they win, and the Earth and/or humanity really is just a few thousand years old. 


But that's sort of the point isn't it?  The Cerberus defenders use that as THE linchpin in their argument against anyone focusing on the TIM and Cerberus' more questionable practices.  Specifically, experimentations on human beings.  

IF you accept that TIM only tells his operatives to do something and then doesn't directly inquire about HOW his Cerberus cells go about accomplishing their goals,  then the Cerberus defense works and the criticism against the Alliance is validated    But who honestly believes that TIM isn't aware of what his cells are doing? 

#127
Zulu_DFA

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Sajuro wrote...

Cerberus is willing to commit atrocities that may be needed to defeat the reapers, but a problem I have with them is that they would probably go straight to those atrocities instead of trying to win without putting millions of lives up as bait. Whoever is in charge of the fight needs to be unwilling but capable of committing such crimes, they should try all other avenues first and never forget what they did. TIM would be able to justify it as a needed action but nothing like that can be justified, and most of all he would probably be able to sleep after that. That, my cerberus loving friends, is why I support the council.


Trying all other avenues costs time.

When all other avenues prove inefficient, it may be to late even for the "atrocities".

#128
Monochrome Wench

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As an example, its possible the cell responsible for Jack were telling the truth that TIM didn't know what was really going on. TIM may have decided to create a team of top scientific minds and game them the goal of producing extremely strong biotics and then thrown a truck load of money at them. It *sounds* like a reasonable thing that wouldn't require much monitoring so TIM kept reasonably hands off.



Overlord is similar. The project goal would be to understand the Geth. TIM would never have imagined that things would screw up that badly. As far as I (now) see it, the problem isn't so much that TIM is lacking ethical standards, its the people he gets to work for him that are the problem...



Just look at a renegade Shep even :)

#129
Moiaussi

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[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[/quote]
Wrong. Any benefit to humanity is moral. Any passing up of a potetial benifit to humanity is immoral. Simple as that.[/quote]

Potential benefit? Every human is a potential murderer. Killing any given human potentially benefits humanity by removing a murder from society. Therefore (based on your premise) unless you kill random humans you are immoral.

You have to actually show a benefit for your logic to make sense, and you do have to take into account cost.

#130
MisterDyslexo

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Any benefit to humanity is moral. Any passing up of a potetial benifit to humanity is immoral. Simple as that.


Oh god, please don't go people where I think you're going to go with this (Godwin's Law). Its a good thread and I don't think it should be locked by a mod

#131
Zulu_DFA

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Moiaussi wrote...
your logic


There is no "my" logic. Logic is one and the same for every human.

#132
Zulu_DFA

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MisterDyslexo wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Any benefit to humanity is moral. Any passing up of a potetial benifit to humanity is immoral. Simple as that.


Oh god, please don't go people where I think you're going to go with this (Godwin's Law). Its a good thread and I don't think it should be locked by a mod


It's a good thread only by the virtue of TIM's cat being revealed as the Shadow Broker's father.

Being locked for calling HITLER, is what it lacks to become epic.

#133
Halo Quea

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Monochrome Wench wrote...

As an example, its possible the cell responsible for Jack were telling the truth that TIM didn't know what was really going on. TIM may have decided to create a team of top scientific minds and game them the goal of producing extremely strong biotics and then thrown a truck load of money at them. It *sounds* like a reasonable thing that wouldn't require much monitoring so TIM kept reasonably hands off.

Overlord is similar. The project goal would be to understand the Geth. TIM would never have imagined that things would screw up that badly. As far as I (now) see it, the problem isn't so much that TIM is lacking ethical standards, its the people he gets to work for him that are the problem...

Just look at a renegade Shep even :)


This ONLY works if you honestly believe TIM  knowingly turns a blind eye to what his operatives are doing, trusting they will complete their projects ethically.   But he doesn't strike me as the kind of person who just cuts checks and doesn't bother to know how it's being spent. 

#134
MisterDyslexo

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
your logic


There is no "my" logic. Logic is one and the same for every human.


Ummm.... Have you ever heard of the word "opinion"? Everybody has their own indivudual opinion about everything, because nobody thinks the same exact way

#135
Sajuro

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MisterDyslexo wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
your logic


There is no "my" logic. Logic is one and the same for every human.


Ummm.... Have you ever heard of the word "opinion"? Everybody has their own indivudual opinion about everything, because nobody thinks the same exact way

But then again, those who think differently from the great and glorius TIM must be traitors to humanity.

#136
Dean_the_Young

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Nightwriter wrote...

1. Spectres are cool and therefore exempt from scorn. This logic is infallible.

The first non-defense.

2. Nope.

The second non defense.

3. Nope.

The third non-defense.

4. We really know nothing about the specifics of the rachni wars, except that they threatened all of Citadel space and were killing everything.

The nature of wars of extermination is that the war is won long before the last person on the other side is dead. By the time the Council forces could wipe out the Rachni in their lairs, they had to have space superiority. With space superiority, they could keep the Rachni locked onthe ground, unable to hurt the rest of the galaxy.

The Council, and yes backing the Krogan and fighting with them makes them complicit, continued a war of extermination long after the Rachni were not a threat to the galaxy.

5. Haven't you read planet descriptions of garden worlds that were destroyed because the krogan gobbled them up and used them until they were spent? And what are you talking about? The turians unleashed the genophage, not the Council, and where is it written that they unleashed it after they'd already won the war?

Sobecause the Krogan devestated some ecologies, genocide is suddenly justified? Disgusting.

The genophage in itself could not win the war: to apply it demanded absolute access to all the Krogan populations, and the effects (stopping the growth of the hoard) only would begin to be felt after the war, in the next population cycle. To apply the genophage, the Council (and no, the Salarians and Turians are not distinct from it given that one was already half the Council and the other was immediately invited to join) already had the ability to get to every Krogan population.

When will people get that the Council are not paragons of virtue in anyone's eyes? It's like American government as opposed to Korean government. If you're telling me American government is perfect and virtuous, you're crazy. I'd still prefer America to Korea.

The Council is the Paragon position. It is the basis of the title itself: the Paragon values are the Council's professed values. A Paragon is paragon by the standards of the Council: a Renegade reflects the un-cooperative species-first policies that humans are derided for. That a Paragon insists of leading everyone else to follow the biased values of a group that has never followed them, that is what makes him a greater tool.

Cerberus isn't North Korea, and the Council isn't America. But  between the two, the Council isn't the closer to thebetter.

#137
Zulu_DFA

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Sajuro wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
your logic


There is no "my" logic. Logic is one and the same for every human.


Ummm.... Have you ever heard of the word "opinion"? Everybody has their own indivudual opinion about everything, because nobody thinks the same exact way

But then again, those who think differently from the great and glorius TIM must be traitors to humanity.


Having and opinion that differs from TIM's does not constitute treason. It only means, that such a person either can't think logically, and/or (which is much more common) has far less information to base their opinion on.

But acting on own ill-informed opinion while being told by TIM what to do, is treason to humanity.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 septembre 2010 - 04:58 .


#138
MisterDyslexo

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
your logic


There is no "my" logic. Logic is one and the same for every human.


Ummm.... Have you ever heard of the word "opinion"? Everybody has their own indivudual opinion about everything, because nobody thinks the same exact way

But then again, those who think differently from the great and glorius TIM must be traitors to humanity.


Having and opinion that differs from TIM's does not constitute treason. It only means, that such a person either can't think logically, and/or (which is much more common) has far less information to base their opinion on.

But acting on own ill-informed opinion while being told by TIM what to do, is treason to humanity.


How do you know that TIM has enough information to make the correct opinion?

#139
BellatrixLugosi

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He doesn't he pull's ill conceived Rebuttal's out of his ass to patch his ego like a Punk rocker's torn up Jacket

Modifié par BellatrixLugosi, 01 septembre 2010 - 05:25 .


#140
Moiaussi

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

The nature of wars of extermination is that the war is won long before the last person on the other side is dead. By the time the Council forces could wipe out the Rachni in their lairs, they had to have space superiority. With space superiority, they could keep the Rachni locked onthe ground, unable to hurt the rest of the galaxy.

The Council, and yes backing the Krogan and fighting with them makes them complicit, continued a war of extermination long after the Rachni were not a threat to the galaxy.


It isn't quite that simple though. The majority of the Galaxy is unexplored and the Rachni can completely rebuild quickly and efficiently. They only need a single surviving queen to do so. Also they are resourceful and cunning. Eventually something would slip up and there would be another war. Keeping an entire race in jail permenantly (effectively keeping them under siege) is not neccessarily more humane even than genocide.

No communications were possible so no negotiations were possible. Even if communications were possible, they were indoctrinated, so negotiations would still not have been possible.

How air tight a seal can be kept on a planet when all it takes is a single queen to jump out of system sometime in the future to start another war?

Alternatively, you can take away all their raw materials, but then you are effectively torturing them for all eternity, since those materials are used in normal life too.

Sobecause the Krogan devestated some ecologies, genocide is suddenly justified? Disgusting.

The genophage in itself could not win the war: to apply it demanded absolute access to all the Krogan populations, and the effects (stopping the growth of the hoard) only would begin to be felt after the war, in the next population cycle. To apply the genophage, the Council (and no, the Salarians and Turians are not distinct from it given that one was already half the Council and the other was immediately invited to join) already had the ability to get to every Krogan population.


THERE WAS NO KROGAN GENOCIDE! The Krogan are surviving quite well. It has taken them time to adapt, but their population levels have stabilized. They were even temporarily evolving beyond the Genophage before the Salarians re-stabilized their population.

Not only was there no genocide, but there was no intent on the part of the Salarians to commit genocide. All they did was stabilize the birth rate to pre-Rachni war levels.

The Council is the Paragon position. It is the basis of the title itself: the Paragon values are the Council's professed values. A Paragon is paragon by the standards of the Council: a Renegade reflects the un-cooperative species-first policies that humans are derided for. That a Paragon insists of leading everyone else to follow the biased values of a group that has never followed them, that is what makes him a greater tool.

Cerberus isn't North Korea, and the Council isn't America. But  between the two, the Council isn't the closer to thebetter.


See this is where two party politics fall completely apart. The Council are only more 'Paragon' in that they represent more lives (especially since they now include the Alliance). Cerberus is more 'Renogade' because it is Humanity first, and even then it does not represent all of humanity (or given the attempts to make humans into something else, possibly none of humanity).

To the extent the Council represents its own interests, the Council is renogade (eg. ignoring the Reapers or taking Saren's word out of political expediency). To the extent Cerberus really is trying to save all civilization (even though saving the other races may be incidental), supporting them is paragon.

Doing the right thing does not equate to choosing the same side all the time, or being a yes man for any given political faction. That is true whether your definition of 'the right thing' is paragon or renogade.

Keep in mind that even the renogades should acknowledge that Cerberus does not neccessarily represent what is best for humanity, but rather what they deem best for humanity. There is a major difference there.

#141
Moiaussi

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BellatrixLugosi wrote...

He doesn't he pull's ill conceived Rebuttal's out of his ass to patch his ego like a Punk rocker's torn up Jacket


Ah, another 'because the Council are in denial, TIM must be all knowing!' Woot.... I guess that means since neither are all knowing I must be God.... Who knew?

#142
khevan

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First let me go on record by saying that the (current) council is a bunch of willfully blind, self-deluding idiots. After all of the times that Shepard was proven right (Saren was a traitor, Saren was looking for the Conduit, Saren/Sovereign were going to attack), the Council simply refuses to believe Shepard, or at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he might be right when it comes to the Reapers.



That being said, I am not a Cerberus supporter. I support the proposed generalized goals of Cerberus as stated by various Normandy 2 crewmen, ie. the preservation and advancement of the human race, but Cerberus itself is a corrupt and immoral institution that I do not trust to "lead" the effort of preserving and advancing humanity.



Trying to improve human biotics is a good goal (Jack), but torturing and killing children in furtherance of that goal is unforgiveable. I actually think that the intention of creating shocktroops by studying the rachni and thorian husks was a good idea...but Cerberus failed to implement stringent enough safety protocols to control them if they got out, especially in the case of the husks. The rachni were fairly well contained when Shepard came and ruined the party, but that was a direct result of Cerberus kidnapping and murdering Adm. Kahoku.



I haven't read the books, so I can't comment on Cerberus "activities" contained therein, but from what I saw in ME1 and ME2, Cerberus goes to the "extreme" end of the Renegade spectrum (the ends justify the means), to the point where their activities approach what I call "evil."



I want a Cerberus type of organization that will pursue research like on Pragia, but without the torture and murder part. I want an organization that will skirt the edge of the shadows, but not fall fully into the dark. Cerberus is not that organization.

#143
BellatrixLugosi

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Moiaussi wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

He doesn't he pull's ill conceived Rebuttal's out of his ass to patch his ego like a Punk rocker's torn up Jacket


Ah, another 'because the Council are in denial, TIM must be all knowing!' Woot.... I guess that means since neither are all knowing I must be God.... Who knew?


He is very well informed you have to give him that.   It's implied that the Council are just as well informed, but they like to Deny and Dismiss things because they think ignoring threats is a good idea rather then acting on it, which then makes people support TIM more, but only to realize that a bite in the ass is coming

#144
Sajuro

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BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

He doesn't he pull's ill conceived Rebuttal's out of his ass to patch his ego like a Punk rocker's torn up Jacket


Ah, another 'because the Council are in denial, TIM must be all knowing!' Woot.... I guess that means since neither are all knowing I must be God.... Who knew?


He is very well informed you have to give him that.   It's implied that the Council are just as well informed, but they like to Deny and Dismiss things because they think ignoring threats is a good idea rather then acting on it, which then makes people support TIM more, but only to realize that a bite in the ass is coming

Or that the council denies and dismisses things because you work for cerberus in ME2 and they don't trust TIM (a good lesson to take) so they won't tell their plans to one of his agents.

#145
Sajuro

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MisterDyslexo wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
your logic


There is no "my" logic. Logic is one and the same for every human.


Ummm.... Have you ever heard of the word "opinion"? Everybody has their own indivudual opinion about everything, because nobody thinks the same exact way

But then again, those who think differently from the great and glorius TIM must be traitors to humanity.


Having and opinion that differs from TIM's does not constitute treason. It only means, that such a person either can't think logically, and/or (which is much more common) has far less information to base their opinion on.

But acting on own ill-informed opinion while being told by TIM what to do, is treason to humanity.


How do you know that TIM has enough information to make the correct opinion?

Because TIM is wise and anyone who disagrees with him doesn't know all that he knows so he must have more information because he's wise enough to know what is best.

#146
lovgreno

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Sajuro wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
your logic


There is no "my" logic. Logic is one and the same for every human.


Ummm.... Have you ever heard of the word "opinion"? Everybody has their own indivudual opinion about everything, because nobody thinks the same exact way

But then again, those who think differently from the great and glorius TIM must be traitors to humanity.


Having and opinion that differs from TIM's does not constitute treason. It only means, that such a person either can't think logically, and/or (which is much more common) has far less information to base their opinion on.

But acting on own ill-informed opinion while being told by TIM what to do, is treason to humanity.


How do you know that TIM has enough information to make the correct opinion?

Because TIM is wise and anyone who disagrees with him doesn't know all that he knows so he must have more information because he's wise enough to know what is best.

There is a logic thing to do that is not depending our opinions. But since we are not all knowing we can never know what it is. We are not omnipotent and all knowing and despite his obvious hubris TIMmy is not either. On the contrary Cerberus has managed to create some fantastic failiures under TIMmys leadership. Are we to trust this person who we hardly know anything at all about to know the unfailiable plan to save the galaxy? Especialy as he never trusts anyone but himself to know his plans (hubris again there).
Some peoples faith in TIMmy is certanly blind.

#147
Nightwriter

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

The first non defense.

The second non defense.

The third non-defense.


I refuse to be shepherded into the role of Council apologist just because I'm anti-Cerberus.

When the Council screws up, it screws up. I will not make defenses for actions that should not be defended.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The nature of wars of extermination is that the war is won long before the last person on the other side is dead. By the time the Council forces could wipe out the Rachni in their lairs, they had to have space superiority. With space superiority, they could keep the Rachni locked onthe ground, unable to hurt the rest of the galaxy.

The Council, and yes backing the Krogan and fighting with them makes them complicit, continued a war of extermination long after the Rachni were not a threat to the galaxy.


Gee, thanks for that, and come back to me once the game has given us anything at all about the actual details of the rachni wars.

I mean the Council likely knew that the rachni can reproduce exponentially in a horrifyingly short amount of time, and that the war would never really be over until they killed the queen and all her eggs.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So because the Krogan devestated some ecologies, genocide is suddenly justified? Disgusting.


Cerberus supporters are not allowed to use the word "disgusting". And last time I checked, the krogan are still around. We all know the krogan weren't hit with the smackdown for killing ecologies. More like killing people.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The genophage in itself could not win the war: to apply it demanded absolute access to all the Krogan populations, and the effects (stopping the growth of the hoard) only would begin to be felt after the war, in the next population cycle. To apply the genophage, the Council (and no, the Salarians and Turians are not distinct from it given that one was already half the Council and the other was immediately invited to join) already had the ability to get to every Krogan population.


The turians were not part of the Council at that time. It's like saying it was "the Council" who saved the Citadel when the Alliance came sweeping in because a few hours later humans became part of it.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Council is the Paragon position. It is the basis of the title itself: the Paragon values are the Council's professed values. A Paragon is paragon by the standards of the Council: a Renegade reflects the un-cooperative species-first policies that humans are derided for. That a Paragon insists of leading everyone else to follow the biased values of a group that has never followed them, that is what makes him a greater tool.

Cerberus isn't North Korea, and the Council isn't America. But  between the two, the Council isn't the closer to the better.


You're going to need to explain this line for me a little bit more.

And I can't say enough how much paragon does not have to equal Council lover. The real reason I miss the Council is I miss being a free operative with galactic authority, shouting at the political titans of the Milky Way on a platform dais, earning a place for humanity in the grandest scale possible and feeling like I was part of something bigger.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:05 .


#148
mosor

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Moiaussi wrote...

It isn't quite that simple though. The majority of the Galaxy is unexplored and the Rachni can completely rebuild quickly and efficiently. They only need a single surviving queen to do so. Also they are resourceful and cunning. Eventually something would slip up and there would be another war. Keeping an entire race in jail permenantly (effectively keeping them under siege) is not neccessarily more humane even than genocide.


What was that charge against Cerberus in the previous posts? They don't try the less extreme options first, that they go for the "monsterous one" right away? Because the other option wasn't even considered, we'll never know if genocide could have been averted. Maybe they would have given up if faced with extinction and the council held back the krogan for awhile. It's not like the Rachni were a match for the krogan, they managed to exterminate them to the last bug without being devestated themselves. As for communication. It's obviously possible, since today's Rachni can do just that through an asari.






THERE WAS NO KROGAN GENOCIDE! The Krogan are surviving quite well. It has taken them time to adapt, but their population levels have stabilized. They were even temporarily evolving beyond the Genophage before the Salarians re-stabilized their population.


It's still a plauge, and still a use of bioweapons. If someone created a plague to sterilize people in third world countries to keep their populations down, we would think they're monsterous too.

Not only was there no genocide, but there was no intent on the part of the Salarians to commit genocide. All they did was stabilize the birth rate to pre-Rachni war levels.


They were correcting their mistake for uplifting them in the first place. As a renegade, I agree with the genophage. However, this is as morally odiious as anything TIM could possibly do. When the researches who maintain the genophage have a crisis of conscience, you know that it's morally odious indeed,.


See this is where two party politics fall completely apart. The Council are only more 'Paragon' in that they represent more lives (especially since they now include the Alliance). Cerberus is more 'Renogade' because it is Humanity first, and even then it does not represent all of humanity (or given the attempts to make humans into something else, possibly none of humanity).


The council isn't elected. I'm pretty sure plenty of individuals, human and alien alike don't see the council as representitive of them. That's why they move to the terminous systems.


Keep in mind that even the renogades should acknowledge that Cerberus does not neccessarily represent what is best for humanity, but rather what they deem best for humanity. There is a major difference there.


This is true for any government , organization or individuals. They do what they deem best, because what you deem is your opinion. If your opinion is that you don't think this is the best course of action, you would never deem that course of action.

#149
Killjoy Cutter

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Having and opinion that differs from TIM's does not constitute treason. It only means, that such a person either can't think logically, and/or (which is much more common) has far less information to base their opinion on.

But acting on own ill-informed opinion while being told by TIM what to do, is treason to humanity.


Snrk. Image IPB

Riiiight. 

So now TIM is infallible, too?

#150
Killjoy Cutter

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
your logic


There is no "my" logic. Logic is one and the same for every human.


Again, snrk.