238 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...


What was that charge against Cerberus in the previous posts? They don't try the less extreme options first, that they go for the "monsterous one" right away? Because the other option wasn't even considered, we'll never know if genocide could have been averted. Maybe they would have given up if faced with extinction and the council held back the krogan for awhile. It's not like the Rachni were a match for the krogan, they managed to exterminate them to the last bug without being devestated themselves. As for communication. It's obviously possible, since today's Rachni can do just that through an asari.

The Citadel races fought a losing war against the rachni for nearly a century...and all attempts to negotiate were futile (because the queens were indoctrinated, I suppose). The codex is pretty clear here.
I am quite sure that uplifting the krogan wasn't their first idea.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

mosor wrote...


What was that charge against Cerberus in the previous posts? They don't try the less extreme options first, that they go for the "monsterous one" right away? Because the other option wasn't even considered, we'll never know if genocide could have been averted. Maybe they would have given up if faced with extinction and the council held back the krogan for awhile. It's not like the Rachni were a match for the krogan, they managed to exterminate them to the last bug without being devestated themselves. As for communication. It's obviously possible, since today's Rachni can do just that through an asari.

The Citadel races fought a losing war against the rachni for nearly a century...and all attempts to negotiate were futile (because the queens were indoctrinated, I suppose). The codex is pretty clear here.
I am quite sure that uplifting the krogan wasn't their first idea.

All attempts at negitiation may have been  futile, but maybe when they were on the verge of distruction by the krogan, things could have changed. As for uplifting the krogan, it may have not been their first idea, but I doubt they ran out of options either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The first non defense.

The second non defense.

The third non-defense.

I refuse to be shepherded into the role of Council apologist just because I'm anti-Cerberus.

When the Council screws up, it screws up. I will not make defenses for actions that should not be defended.

You're not being shepherded into the role of Council apologist because you're anti-Cerberus. You're walking yourself into that role because you completely ignore the magnitude of difference of crimes between the crimes and then fixate on Cerberus.

Gee, thanks for that, and come back to me once the game has given us anything at all about the actual details of the rachni wars.

I mean the Council likely knew that the rachni can reproduce exponentially in a horrifyingly short amount of time, and that the war would never really be over until they killed the queen and all her eggs.

They gave you more than enough to fill in the obvious.

The Rachni can not get into space without space ships. They couldn't build space ships without facilities. And these weren't all Garden worlds either: they were even burrowed on worlds deemed so horrible only Krogan could ignore them.

It doesn't matter how many Rachni are on-planet if they can't get off planet, and keeping them from getting off planet in any numbers is something the Council has already proven it can do in the Krogan DMZ. Not only can you destroy the facilities needed to build and launch ships, but doing so means you don't have to send Krogan soldiers into acid traps.

Cerberus supporters are not allowed to use the word "disgusting". And last time I checked, the krogan are still around. We all know the krogan weren't hit with the smackdown for killing ecologies. More like killing people.

I'm not the one who just argued the justification of genocide on the basis of environmentalism, and yes that is exactly what you were doing with that argument. If Cerberus tolerators (which even you have to admit is the more accurate description for most) can't use the word 'disgusting', it better be because the other side is somehow making better and more moral arguments.

The Krogan are still around because they aren't done dying off. A deliberate slow-motion genocide is still an act of genocide. Mordin can make all the excuses and planing he wants, but the only non-cure reason the Krogan will survive is because of Wrex, not the Council.

The turians were not part of the Council at that time. It's like saying it was "the Council" who saved the Citadel when the Alliance came sweeping in because a few hours later humans became part of it.

The Turians did not develop or plan the genophage. The Salarians did, and they certainly were part of the Council.

You're going to need to explain this line for me a little bit more.

And I can't say enough how much paragon does not have to equal Council lover. The real reason I miss the Council is I miss being a free operative with galactic authority, shouting at the political titans of the Milky Way on a platform dais, earning a place for humanity in the grandest scale possible and feeling like I was part of something bigger.

What's to explain? Paragon and Renegade are broad categories, but politically Renegades are openly human-nationalists and Paragons are idealistic xeno-internationalists. The tool aspect comes from that Paragon xeno-internationalist thought regularly comes as justification for self-inflicted harm to their species on behalf of an organization that has always been xeno-nationalist in practice. It is very much similar to a man convinced that charity entails going without to give to a known scam artist, and yet the man convinces himself he is the better for it.

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...


All attempts at negitiation may have been  futile, but maybe when they were on the verge of distruction by the krogan, things could have changed. As for uplifting the krogan, it may have not been their first idea, but I doubt they ran out of options either.

The krogan were the only race that attacked the rachni planets (in order to destroy the queens), and I think only the queens are able to communicate.

We have a rather undiplomatic race (krogan) and indoctrinated rachni queens (as our queen hinted in ME1 and ME2)...slim chances for peace negotiations imo^_^
I think you can't blame the council here.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You're not being shepherded into the role of Council apologist because you're anti-Cerberus. You're walking yourself into that role because you completely ignore the magnitude of difference of crimes between the crimes and then fixate on Cerberus.

The Council's goal is galactic stability. Cerberus's goal is galactic domination. I can't say it any more plainly, nor state any further which one I'd prefer.

Cerberus and the Council have both done things that are wrong, but the Council is not ruled by any one person like Cerberus, has a system of elected officials, strives to maintain galactic stability, aims for peace and intergalactic cooperation and at least attempts the pretense of fairness. They're idiots and they frustrate me but like Collider said, hey, they don't torture children. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They gave you more than enough to fill in the obvious.

The Rachni can not get into space without space ships. They couldn't build space ships without facilities. And these weren't all Garden worlds either: they were even burrowed on worlds deemed so horrible only Krogan could ignore them.

It doesn't matter how many Rachni are on-planet if they can't get off planet, and keeping them from getting off planet in any numbers is something the Council has already proven it can do in the Krogan DMZ. Not only can you destroy the facilities needed to build and launch ships, but doing so means you don't have to send Krogan soldiers into acid traps.

Think Starship Troopers or Ender's Game. If I had been fighting giant bugs for centuries who did nothing but try to kill me I'd likely see the thing through too. The rachni were incommunicado. Nothing more than big insects to us. Animals. Be reasonable. If Cerberus had arranged the genocide of the rachni at that point, I wouldn't blame them.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm not the one who just argued the justification of genocide on the basis of environmentalism, and yes that is exactly what you were doing with that argument. If Cerberus tolerators (which even you have to admit is the more accurate description for most) can't use the word 'disgusting', it better be because the other side is somehow making better and more moral arguments.

You can't use the word "disgusting" because you saw evidence that people and children were tortured and still think the organization that did it is a good idea. Simple.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Krogan are still around because they aren't done dying off. A deliberate slow-motion genocide is still an act of genocide. Mordin can make all the excuses and planing he wants, but the only non-cure reason the Krogan will survive is because of Wrex, not the Council.

Ruthless or immoral people are always desperate to drag everyone down to their level and prove no one else is any better.

The genophage work was meant to keep the krogan population in check, not commit genocide. Check your facts.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Turians did not develop or plan the genophage. The Salarians did, and they certainly were part of the Council.

And it's widely known that it was the turians who took it and implemented it on a large scale. Since the turians were credited with the defeat of the krogan, and not the salarians, it's fairly safe to say the salarians made the gun and the turians pulled the trigger. And "guns don't kill people..."

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What's to explain? Paragon and Renegade are broad categories, but politically Renegades are openly human-nationalists and Paragons are idealistic xeno-internationalists. The tool aspect comes from that Paragon xeno-internationalist thought regularly comes as justification for self-inflicted harm to their species on behalf of an organization that has always been xeno-nationalist in practice. It is very much similar to a man convinced that charity entails going without to give to a known scam artist, and yet the man convinces himself he is the better for it.

... What?

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

The Council's goal is galactic stability. Cerberus's goal is galactic domination. I can't say it any more plainly, nor state any further which one I'd prefer.

Cerberus and the Council have both done things that are wrong, but the Council is not ruled by any one person like Cerberus, has a system of elected officials, strives to maintain galactic stability, aims for peace and intergalactic cooperation and at least attempts the pretense of fairness. They're idiots and they frustrate me but like Collider said, hey, they don't torture children. 

And neither does Cerberus, unless you intend to argue that it wasn't a rogue cell that deliberatly lied about its actions. But while such atrocities have occured in Cerberus, the Council sanctifies the legal right to do that and anything.

The Council's definition of galactic  stability is one in which
the Council dominates. 'Stability' is a byword for the status quo, and
the status quo as is remains one built by, for, and in the interests of
the Citadel Council. Domination is not a word that is benign for thee and malign for me.

Think Starship Troopers or Ender's Game. If I had been fighting giant bugs for centuries who did nothing but try to kill me I'd likely see the thing through too. The rachni were incommunicado. Nothing more than big insects to us. Animals. Be reasonable. If Cerberus had arranged the genocide of the rachni at that point, I wouldn't blame them.

You probably would, but that's beside the point that even the Citadel Council did just that. (And then had the gall to accuse you, as a human, for being too enamored with violence and genocide if you kill the Rachni Queen.)

You can't use the word "disgusting" because you saw evidence that people and children were tortured and still think the organization that did it is a good idea. Simple.

Sure I can, because I don't. I don't think Cerberus as it is is a good idea, just as I don't think the Spectres are a good idea at all. If I had my druthers, the first would be significantly different and Udina would arrest all the remainder of the second. But Cerberus does exist, and more importantly so do the Reapers, and what Cerberus can bring to bear against the Reapers makes them necessary to save far more than anyone can honestly expect to survive without them.

Ruthless or immoral people are always desperate to drag everyone down to their level and prove no one else is any better.

I don't need to 'prove' no one else is better. They are or are not whether I say anything or ignore them. But perspective and, more important, a working sense of relative proportiions, are essential to making informed, logical, and above all justifiable decisions. If your reason for refusing to work with Cerberus in favor of the Council is that Cerberus is a criminal organization with a history of war crimes, then it really behooves of you to ensure that your chosen allies are not complicit in more and far greater crimes.

The genophage work was meant to keep the krogan population in check, not commit genocide. Check your facts.

Did you check yours? The krogan population would only be kept in check if the Krogans suddenly stopped being krogans, doing all the historical and cultural behaviors that mark them as Krogans, and changed their entire culture to suit the Salarian planners' designs.

This, of course, is nonsense to expect. Anyone who actually looked at how Krogans act could see it.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And it's widely known that it was the turians who took it and implemented it on a large scale. Since the turians were credited with the defeat of the krogan, and not the salarians, it's fairly safe to say the salarians made the gun and the turians pulled the trigger. And "guns don't kill people..."

As the originator, designer, and planners, the Salarians would be the people in your analogy. The Turians would be the guns.

... What?

Your idealist philosophy is in favor of a power cabal that routinely undermines your very arguments. And you take pride in that as marking you as a admirable and moral position.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

Cerberus and the Council have both done things that are wrong, but the Council is not ruled by any one person like Cerberus, has a system of elected officials, strives to maintain galactic stability, aims for peace and intergalactic cooperation and at least attempts the pretense of fairness.

No real evidence that the council is elected at all. Government positions in the citadel sure, but the council itself seems to be appointed rather than elected.

They're idiots and they frustrate me but like Collider said, hey, they don't torture children. 

They don't need to. They made sure krogan children were rare enough to their liking.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And neither does Cerberus, unless you intend to argue that it wasn't a rogue cell that deliberatly lied about its actions. But while such atrocities have occured in Cerberus, the Council sanctifies the legal right to do that and anything.

This is how I figure it: TIM knew those scientists were doing something with those children. He knew the goal of the project was to produce more powerful biotics, and that tests were being run on kids. He had to have known there's really no humane way to get ahold of children for experimentation. I find it highly doubtful that he was totally unaware there was something unethical going on there. In the beginning I think he was quite on board with it.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Council's definition of galactic  stability is one in which
the Council dominates. 'Stability' is a byword for the status quo, and
the status quo as is remains one built by, for, and in the interests of
the Citadel Council. Domination is not a word that is benign for thee and malign for me.

Not really. Three's better than one any way you slice it. It's a republic vs a dictatorship. And the Council still has to keep all the other races in the galaxy happy and working together.

If Cerberus promoted galactic stability I'd support that, too. Unfortunately all their actions do is disrupt galactic stability.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You probably would,

Nah.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

but that's beside the point that even the Citadel Council did just that. (And then had the gall to accuse you, as a human, for being too enamored with violence and genocide if you kill the Rachni Queen.)

Do they say that? Rofl. I've never heard that dialogue.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sure I can, because I don't. I don't think Cerberus as it is is a good idea, just as I don't think the Spectres are a good idea at all. If I had my druthers, the first would be significantly different and Udina would arrest all the remainder of the second. But Cerberus does exist, and more importantly so do the Reapers, and what Cerberus can bring to bear against the Reapers makes them necessary to save far more than anyone can honestly expect to survive without them.

Sounds like you're not really defending Cerberus, but the potential for the Cerberus you see in your head - Cerberus as it would be if you were in charge.

Well yeah, such an organization would be a lot better. I'd have way less complaints and there'd really be nothing to argue about. If only. However, Cerberus is no such animal.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't need to 'prove' no one else is better. They are or are not whether I say anything or ignore them. But perspective and, more important, a working sense of relative proportiions, are essential to making informed, logical, and above all justifiable decisions. If your reason for refusing to work with Cerberus in favor of the Council is that Cerberus is a criminal organization with a history of war crimes, then it really behooves of you to ensure that your chosen allies are not complicit in more and far greater crimes.

You can't compare Cerberus's crimes, like torturing children, to galactic war. It's completely different when a massive amount of people are involved in a very complicated galactic event.

The Council's crimes are not comparable to Cerberus's. They both need to be judged in their own right. People need to recognize both are wrong in different ways.

Nevertheless, the most you can say about the Council in regards to the rachni and krogan is that they responded to a galactic threat overzealously. The quarians, however...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Did you check yours? The krogan population would only be kept in check if the Krogans suddenly stopped being krogans, doing all the historical and cultural behaviors that mark them as Krogans, and changed their entire culture to suit the Salarian planners' designs.

This, of course, is nonsense to expect. Anyone who actually looked at how Krogans act could see it.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

The only way to keep the krogan in check is for them to change their behavior? No... the genophage keeps them in check. Help me out here, I'm lost. Do you mean krogan will always adapt, that Mordin's new genophage will eventually be overcome as well, and that if so it means they will be a threat forever until they learn to change their ways? If so I agree to an extent.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As the originator, designer, and planners, the Salarians would be the people in your analogy. The Turians would be the guns.

The turians saw greater potential in the genophage than the salarians did, and they were the ones who decided to use it on a massive scale. Why do you think the krogan hate them? Why do you think Wrex's comment in the Citadel Tower is, "I always wondered if the Council secretly encouraged the turians to unleash the genophage"?

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Your idealist philosophy is in favor of a power cabal that routinely undermines your very arguments. And you take pride in that as marking you as a admirable and moral position.

I hardly consider myself an admirable person. I hardly consider the Council good. I am not arguing that the Council is acceptable, that its ways are infallible, or that it is a force of virtue.

I am only arguing that it is, at least, a bit better than Cerberus. Because it is regulated. And open to scrutiny.

Governments always do imperfect things. We turned the cold shoulder to Rwanda during a genocide and invaded a foreign nation for oil. Doesn't mean I want a terrorist faction running the country.

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
So now TIM is infallible, too?

Of course, not. He was wrong to trust Grayson that last time, wasn't he?

But on average, with any given "choice" TIM has more chances probability to hit the right option, due to his well informed position, and his survivalist morals.

The only counter argument to this is: "It's just a game, and my Paragon Idiot Shepard carries Bioware supplied plot armor".

Oh, wait, there is one more: "I love the aliens (and hate humanity) so much, that I will never endanger them to  living in one galaxy with a pro-Human organization, even if it means selling my beloved aliens to the Reapers!"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 septembre 2010 - 01:32 .

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

No real evidence that the council is elected at all. Government positions in the citadel sure, but the council itself seems to be appointed rather than elected.

Appointed by whom? Appointed how? Under what authority?

The point is that they're not self-appointed, like the Illusive Man, and power rests in no one person or place. I'm sure there's some type of electoral process where either a panel from each race elects the best candidate or a successor is chosen and prepared.

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
So now TIM is infallible, too?

Of course, not. He was wrong to trust Grayson that last time wasn't he?

But on average, with any given "choice" TIM has more chances probability to hit the right option, due to his well informed position, and his survivalist morals.

The only counter argument to this is: "It's just a game, and my Paragon Idiot Shepard has Bioware supplied plot armor in his pocket".

Oh, wait, there is one more: "I love the aliens (and hate humanity) so much, that I will never endanger them to  living in one galaxy with a pro-Human organization, even if it means selling my beloved aliens to the Reapers!"

How about " I don't trust TIM to know what the right (and not quick) thing to do even it sat in his lap and called him daddy, if it did he'd probably have it shipped off to a remote world to be tortured.. you know for the good of humanity." Or "I tend to trust the governing body that has dealt with two more galaxy threatening wars than Cerberus has and saved humanity from becoming a client state of the Turians, over the terrorist group headed by a man who is cloistered away in a room and is called 'the illusive man'"

[PWENER]

Nightwriter wrote...

mosor wrote...

No real evidence that the council is elected at all. Government positions in the citadel sure, but the council itself seems to be appointed rather than elected.

Appointed by whom? Appointed how? Under what authority?

The point is that they're not self-appointed, like the Illusive Man, and power rests in no one person or place. I'm sure there's some type of electoral process where either a panel from each race elects the best candidate or a successor is chosen and prepared.

Ah yes, "elections"...



We have dismissed those claims.

[ReiSilver]

Nightwriter you have infinitely more patience then I to keep arguing with people who don't know evil when they see it.

As someone with a main Shepard who was a Sole Survivor I was shocked that the game railroaded me into working with an organisation my Shepard would rather destroy for the good of the galaxy then work with. It gets SO frustrating that other characters in the game are calling you out for working with these monsters and all I want to say is 'I KNOW!' and you NEVER get to call them on Akuse and Toombs who they injected venom into for years, y'know FOR SCIENCE... just ARRGH wtf bioware? I mean I know Tim would just say 'oh that? That was a rouge cell, we're good guys, really' but still. I better be able to shoot that guy in ME3

What I don't get are the people who say 'oh you must love aliens more than humans if you are anti-cerberus' that's bull, whenever you find cerberus doing something nasty (as they always do) there are PILES of dead bodies, and every time those are HUMAN bodies, after the Reapers and Batarians Cerberus is the biggest threat to humanity. You think they just came up with a way to bring Shep back to life without testing on other humans?

Honestly either they're evil or they're so massively incompetent TiM still comes off as being evil for criminal negligence. He may have 'good intentions' but so does every villain who isn't twirling his moustache by the rail road tracks

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...
a successor is chosen and prepared.

TIM is chosen too. By providence!

Seriously, the system of appointing a ruler is not relevant. HITLER was elected in a most democratic way.

Sajuro wrote...
the governing body that ... saved humanity from becoming a client state of the Turians

Morons.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 septembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[PWENER]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
a successor is chosen and prepared.

TIM is chosen too. By providence!

Seriously, the system of appointing a ruler is not relevant. HITLER was elected in a most democratic way, BTW.

Ah yes, Hitler elected.



We have dismissed those claims... kinda. Meabye.

[Zulu_DFA]

PWENER wrote...

Ah yes, Hitler elected.
We have dismissed those claims...

Sure, you better dismiss it, since Hitler was the worst of the worst, and it's quite awkward, that the worst political leader in history was democratically elected. He didn't even have to rig the count, like George W.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[Nightwriter]

ReiSilver wrote...

Nightwriter you have infinitely more patience then I to keep arguing with people who don't know evil when they see it.
As someone with a main Shepard who was a Sole Survivor I was shocked that the game railroaded me into working with an organisation my Shepard would rather destroy for the good of the galaxy then work with. It gets SO frustrating that other characters in the game are calling you out for working with these monsters and all I want to say is 'I KNOW!' and you NEVER get to call them on Akuse and Toombs who they injected venom into for years, y'know FOR SCIENCE... just ARRGH wtf bioware? I mean I know Tim would just say 'oh that? That was a rouge cell, we're good guys, really' but still. I better be able to shoot that guy in ME3
What I don't get are the people who say 'oh you must love aliens more than humans if you are anti-cerberus' that's bull, whenever you find cerberus doing something nasty (as they always do) there are PILES of dead bodies, and every time those are HUMAN bodies, after the Reapers and Batarians Cerberus is the biggest threat to humanity. You think they just came up with a way to bring Shep back to life without testing on other humans?
Honestly either they're evil or they're so massively incompetent TiM still comes off as being evil for criminal negligence. He may have 'good intentions' but so does every villain who isn't twirling his moustache by the rail road tracks

Well if I don't keep them on their toes they'll become complacent.

And Akuze was one of the biggest failings in ME2, I agree. Sole survivors really should've been able to bring it up. I always sort of got the feeling that BioWare didn't want to open that can of warms. Not that I'm a sole survivor. I refuse to pick anything but the colonist background and colonist/sole survivor seems like too much tragedy that my character can't reflect.

But sole survivors who actually support Cerberus should, I feel, get some extra dialogue in game.

[Nightwriter]

The world loved Hitler at first. I remember being in history class and watching old vids of US diplomats smiling and shaking hands with Hitler and saying how fortunate it was that Germany was finally getting some decent leadership. It blew ma mind, man.

[IBPROFEN]

Well, I 'm just waiting on EDI to give me the info tht she said take about a year to process.

Before I say whos the real "bad guy".

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
a successor is chosen and prepared.

TIM is chosen too. By providence!

Seriously, the system of appointing a ruler is not relevant. HITLER was elected in a most democratic way.

Sajuro wrote...
the governing body that ... saved humanity from becoming a client state of the Turians

Morons.

OHMYGOD Hitler was elected, we must stop having elections! Hitler breathed air ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh -holds breath and passes out-

I find it endlessly amusing that you call the council racist and when someone brings up the single best thing they did for humanity (that and supporting them against the Batarians when humanity began its expansion) you call them morons . But seeing as you invoked Godwin's law.. bye bye Zulu see you in the next Cerberus thread.

[PWENER]

Nightwriter wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

Nightwriter you have infinitely more patience then I to keep arguing with people who don't know evil when they see it.
As someone with a main Shepard who was a Sole Survivor I was shocked that the game railroaded me into working with an organisation my Shepard would rather destroy for the good of the galaxy then work with. It gets SO frustrating that other characters in the game are calling you out for working with these monsters and all I want to say is 'I KNOW!' and you NEVER get to call them on Akuse and Toombs who they injected venom into for years, y'know FOR SCIENCE... just ARRGH wtf bioware? I mean I know Tim would just say 'oh that? That was a rouge cell, we're good guys, really' but still. I better be able to shoot that guy in ME3
What I don't get are the people who say 'oh you must love aliens more than humans if you are anti-cerberus' that's bull, whenever you find cerberus doing something nasty (as they always do) there are PILES of dead bodies, and every time those are HUMAN bodies, after the Reapers and Batarians Cerberus is the biggest threat to humanity. You think they just came up with a way to bring Shep back to life without testing on other humans?
Honestly either they're evil or they're so massively incompetent TiM still comes off as being evil for criminal negligence. He may have 'good intentions' but so does every villain who isn't twirling his moustache by the rail road tracks

Well if I don't keep them on their toes they'll become complacent.

And Akuze was one of the biggest failings in ME2, I agree. Sole survivors really should've been able to bring it up. I always sort of got the feeling that BioWare didn't want to open that can of warms. Not that I'm a sole survivor. I refuse to pick anything but the colonist background and colonist/sole survivor seems like too much tragedy that my character can't reflect.

But sole survivors who actually support Cerberus should, I feel, get some extra dialogue in game.

BW dropped the ball big time with that background. They shouldn't have involved it with Cerberus, not that directly anyway.

[PWENER]

Sajuro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
a successor is chosen and prepared.

TIM is chosen too. By providence!

Seriously, the system of appointing a ruler is not relevant. HITLER was elected in a most democratic way.

Sajuro wrote...
the governing body that ... saved humanity from becoming a client state of the Turians

Morons.

OHMYGOD Hitler was elected, we must stop having elections! Hitler breathed air ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh -holds breath and passes out-

I find it endlessly amusing that you call the council racist and when someone brings up the single best thing they did for humanity (that and supporting them against the Batarians when humanity began its expansion) you call them morons . But seeing as you invoked Godwin's law.. bye bye Zulu see you in the next Cerberus thread.

Goldwin's law never fails... never. This thread just hit rock bottom. PERIOD.

[Nightwriter]

Well a Godwin isn't really a thread-ender or anything. More an inevitability of debate. But if you say it three times into your computer screen at midnight Hitler will come out and eat you.


Also Sajuro made me laugh which deserves praise.

PWENER wrote...

BW dropped the ball big time with that background. They shouldn't have involved it with Cerberus, not that directly anyway.

Truth.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
a successor is chosen and prepared.

TIM is chosen too. By providence!

Seriously, the system of appointing a ruler is not relevant. HITLER was elected in a most democratic way.

Sajuro wrote...
the governing body that ... saved humanity from becoming a client state of the Turians

Morons.

OHMYGOD Hitler was elected, we must stop having elections! Hitler breathed air ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh -holds breath and passes out-

I was more of suggesting that, since the worst politician ever happened to be elected, the best politician ever might happen  as well to be self-appointed... Plato wrote a paper or two about this, I believe.

But we can have an example here. Who is more loved than Jesus? He was self-appointed!

Sajuro wrote...
I find it endlessly amusing that you call the council racist and when someone brings up the single best thing they did for humanity (that and supporting them against the Batarians when humanity began its expansion) you call them morons .

Truthfully, I think they had some ulterior motives... Which is actually irrelevant now, since in *my* game they already payed for their idiocy with their lives.

But seeing as you invoked Godwin's law.. bye bye Zulu see you in the next Cerberus thread.

I have a good idea what we could name it: "TIM is Space Hitler!!!"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:44 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Cerberus's Crimes

Its not a crime if you are not beholden to any law to begin with.