234 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonPogo]

I am trying to do a run to transfer over to DA2.  I don't know if this choice will matter but I can't decide.  I have done bpoth before and don't really like eather of them.  So help me out who do you all think is the better choice?

[Zjarcal]

Bhelen is the better choice for the sake of Dwarven society. He eliminates the caste system and grants the former casteless the right to bear arms. Under his rule the Dwarves reclaim several thaigs from the darkspawn. He is ruthless (and supporting him always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth) but he's much better than Harrowmont in the long run.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Let's see.

- Further isolation from Orzammar, crippling what has been described as its only life line (trade with the surface).

- Further caste restrictions. Makes the population crisis even worse.

- Without anvil, Harrowmont dies and another crisis probably happens. With anvil, he does nothing to stop Branka and foreign powers have to interfere.

VS

- More trade.

- Less caste restrictions and casteless given rights in exchange for military service.

- Many thaigs liberated.

- Bhelen dissolves the assembly after they try to assassinate him several times. With anvil, he makes the anvil illegal when Branka gets out of control and succeeds in containing her before she does more harm than she coudl have (like with Harrowmont).

Hmmm, yep maybe Bhelen is better.

[philiposophy]

Bhelen's a scumbag but he's more progressive and appears to know what's best for Orzammar.



Harrowmont is a better person who is driven by duty far more than personal ambition but he's very conservative, which isn't what Orzammar needs.



I usually pick Bhelen but it's not a straightforward choice.

[Zjarcal]

I almost always pick Harrowmont because without metagame knowledge it's hard to guess who will be the better ruler in the long run. You can get hints that Bhelen is more progressive but it's not enough to convince my characters to work with Bhelen, who they view as a scumbag.

So I end up screwing the Dwarves for refusing to metagame...

Modifié par Zjarcal, 30 août 2010 - 11:57 .

[Heimdall]

Harrowmont seems like a better person but he sucks at ruling
Bhelen isan underhanded traiterous scumbag but overall a better ruler of dwarven society, for reason's the other posters here have already stated.
This is why character never realized those documents were forged

Bhelen

[MKDAWUSS]

DC - Bhelen

DN - Harrowmont



Non Dwarves - Bhelen

[Giggles_Manically]

Well...

I am normally a nice Paragon of virtue type bloke.



However I did all the sidequests in Orzamar and saw how terrible casteless had it. I also picked up hints on Bhelen wanting to change things.

Even if he is brutal, he just makes nobles and warriors unhappy. The merchants, castless, can commenors most likely get a much better life from him.



Overall he isint beyond any real life leader in a medieval setting really.

[Revya]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

DC - Bhelen
DN - Harrowmont

Non Dwarves - Bhelen

My choices

[Elhanan]

Most of my Warden's choose Harrowmont; a few DC or greedy one's choose Bhelen.

[mousestalker]

I prefer Bhelen for the following reasons:



1. His name is shorter.

2. His name has fewer syllables.

3. Zevran likes his side better.



Other than that, it's pretty much a coin toss.

[phaonica]

Zjarcal wrote...

I almost always pick Harrowmont because without metagame knowledge it's hard to guess who will be the better ruler in the long run. You can get hints that Bhelen is more progressive but it's not enough to convince my characters to work with Bhelen, who they view as a scumbag.

So I end up screwing the Dwarves for refusing to metagame...

Same here. I have a hard time justifying siding with Bhelen with my characters. I find it very hard to take anything the dwarves say at face value because there is so much caste bias.

[Heimdall]

phaonica wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I almost always pick Harrowmont because without metagame knowledge it's hard to guess who will be the better ruler in the long run. You can get hints that Bhelen is more progressive but it's not enough to convince my characters to work with Bhelen, who they view as a scumbag.

So I end up screwing the Dwarves for refusing to metagame...

Same here. I have a hard time justifying siding with Bhelen with my characters. I find it very hard to take anything the dwarves say at face value because there is so much caste bias.

Agreed....  Though I managed justifying siding with Bhelen for my main "Good character, he thought Harrowmont was one of those evil advisor types out to get the throne (They're incredibly common after all) and never realized Bhelen had those papers forged.  Just thinking about all the caste bias and one of the hardest choices in the game now makes me realize the dwarves in DA:O were really well done

[phaonica]

Lord Aesir wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I almost always pick Harrowmont because without metagame knowledge it's hard to guess who will be the better ruler in the long run. You can get hints that Bhelen is more progressive but it's not enough to convince my characters to work with Bhelen, who they view as a scumbag.

So I end up screwing the Dwarves for refusing to metagame...

Same here. I have a hard time justifying siding with Bhelen with my characters. I find it very hard to take anything the dwarves say at face value because there is so much caste bias.

Agreed....  Though I managed justifying siding with Bhelen for my main "Good character, he thought Harrowmont was one of those evil advisor types out to get the throne (They're incredibly common after all) and never realized Bhelen had those papers forged.  Just thinking about all the caste bias and one of the hardest choices in the game now makes me realize the dwarves in DA:O were really well done

Not only that, but even if the documents were legitimate, you still have to weigh whatever Bhelen wants you to do VS participating in a Proving that not only could potentially get you in good with Harrowmont, but with the entire dwarven people via being favored by the ancestors. I suppose metagaming can give you overconfidence in winning the Proving... maybe if your character doubts their ability in the Proving, you might be more willing to go with Bhelen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
maybe if your character doubts their ability in the Proving, you might be more willing to go with Bhelen.

So....your characters don't pick Bhelen...because they think they can win the proving?
Eum, I am sorry I can't quite follow how this has anything to do with who is the better king.
 

[Zjarcal]

phaonica wrote...

Not only that, but even if the documents were legitimate, you still have to weigh whatever Bhelen wants you to do VS participating in a Proving that not only could potentially get you in good with Harrowmont, but with the entire dwarven people via being favored by the ancestors. I suppose metagaming can give you overconfidence in winning the Proving... maybe if your character doubts their ability in the Proving, you might be more willing to go with Bhelen.

That's more or less what my Mage, the only one who has sided with Bhelen, thought. She didn't care one bit about who was king, all she wanted was her troops. So when one guy asked her to run around with some documents and the other one asked her to enter a potentially deadly tournament, she went with the snakes.

That and the Harrowmont crier said that the Wardens were working with demons. That pissed her off!

EDIT: I wonder if the demon accusation only occurs when you're a blood mage.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 31 août 2010 - 05:12 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
maybe if your character doubts their ability in the Proving, you might be more willing to go with Bhelen.

So....your characters don't pick Bhelen...because they think they can win the proving?
Eum, I am sorry I can't quite follow how this has anything to do with who is the better king.
 

It doesn't have anything to do with who is the better king. I felt that I couldn't determine who was the better king, not the better king for my needs, and not the better king for the dwarves. So I went with the one that I felt I could gain the most influence with the dwarves and the assembly faster.
Edit: maybe "faster" isn't the right word, because you can assume that the proving is going to take more time time than running a document around town. more like I thought that it could gain more effective support.

Modifié par phaonica, 31 août 2010 - 05:43 .

[CalJones]

I pretty much always pick Bhelen. I picked Harrowmont on my first run (I was playing a human noble so had no background info) and felt that was a mistake given the ending slide. Even my dwarf noble went with Bhelen, in the end.

[Gnoster]

At first I always picked Harrowmont because of the opening scene once you enter Orzammar, but I have switched sides and always pick Bhelen now ...unless I play a Dwarf Noble.



Personally I view Bhelen like I view the roman emperor Octavian, who succeeded Ceasar. He was ruthless in war, but became known as the most gentle and progressive emperor in the roman empire. The argument from some historians is that he knew war to be bad for the progress of the empire, so he needed to end it as fast as possible.



Taking this view into account and the fact that several clues in Orzammar show Bhelen to be more open to the outside world, and the fact that of the two advisors, Bhelen's is the only one to promise support against the darkspawn, even Bhelen is quick to show support. I am a warden first, so that counts for Bhelen, I am (sometimes) working for the good of Ferelden which again counts for Bhelen, and honestly both use similar political tactics in their fight for the crown, so no love is lost for Harrowmont.

[R4til31337]

I chose Harrowmont simply because my dwarf noble had some payback to do.

[ashwind]

Bhelen = Dictatorship
Harrowmont = Democracy

Bhelen is a dictator, putting him on the throne will perhaps give the dwarves some short term benefit but at what cost? At the cost of dissolving the Assembly . Maybe Bhelen is capable but what happens if he appoint some stupid dictator as successor? Corruption, war, dwarven rights violation, etc etc. No more check and balance in place.

Harrowmont makes for a bad leader but at least the dwarves still get to vote on issues and who to be king in the future. I pick Harrowmont because I trust that the people will finally vote for a good ruler and if they happen to vote for a dictator and destroy themselves, it will not be my warden's doing XD

Modifié par ashwind, 31 août 2010 - 09:20 .

[Heimdall]

ashwind wrote...

Bhelen = Dictatorship
Harrowmont = Democracy

Bhelen is a dictator, putting him on the throne will perhaps give the dwarves some short term benefit but at what cost? At the cost of dissolving the Assembly . Maybe Bhelen is capable but what happens if he appoint some stupid dictator as successor? Corruption, war, dwarven rights violation, etc etc. No more check and balance in place.

Harrowmont makes for a bad leader but at least the dwarves still get to vote on issues and who to be king in the future. I pick Harrowmont because I trust that the people will finally vote for a good ruler and if they happen to vote for a dictator and destroy themselves, it will not be my warden's doing XD

What the dwarves have can only barely be called a democracy.  It's even less of a democracy than the roman republic with it's Senator's for life.  Anyone who is not a member of the noble houses has no say whatsoever.  It is purely the concentration of power only in a few more people than the king and they make it abundantly clear how little they care for the other castes and casteless.

I don't think keeping such a system in place is necesarily a good thing

[termokanden]

Bhelen is, as has been said enough times already, a scumbag. I hate the game for giving us such a weak alternative in Harrowmont. Still, I will never pick Bhelen on any of my characters after playing the dwarf noble origin.