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[Sarah1281]

I chose to do as much to turn tables while I was able, and Bhelen would be easier to control than the entire Assembly.

Although given that Bhelen shows himself capable of controlling the entire Assembly, I kind of doubt that.

[Nerevar-as]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Unless Hawke can take on an entire pack of Werewolves in only a pair of old pants, with a woodaxe in the dead of winter, then I doubt he will be as cool.

That´s what I meant by the 1/4. After all, your example is only one of many  of Vimes awesomeness. Add to that he is what Lawful Good should be (loved his thoughts after dealing with the big bad in that book). All that without coming across as a Gary Stu.

A bit more on topic, what I liked most in Orzammar quest is the lack of a clear cut good - bad solution. Even if I see Bhelen in a better light than others, we are still talking about someone ready to off his family. For all we know (or if we wish to) DN Origin had his same ideals and was in better position to put them in practice. Is it possible to end in good terms with him anyway without feeling too forgiving?

[Sarah1281]

Is it possible to end in good terms with him anyway without feeling too forgiving?

With Bhelen as a DN? Sure. Give the crown to him at the last second while openly telling Vartag that Bhelen is a horrible person or else working with Bhelen the whole time and say things like 'We need a strong King now' ,'The throne belongs with the Aeducans', or 'I can never forgive you but we can work together for now.' There are also plenty of opportunities to be hostile towards him while working with him and he responds in kind. Once you put him on the throne, he's thrilled no matter if you were working with him or pleasant or not and he immediately restores you to House Aeducan.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Although given that Bhelen shows himself capable of controlling the entire Assembly, I kind of doubt that.

Based on the ease at which one can tear apart his credibility, the fools he hires as advisors, and the idea that he appears to be rather self-absorbed, he is not even as threatening as Jarvia, or my old buddy Leske.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Although given that Bhelen shows himself capable of controlling the entire Assembly, I kind of doubt that.

Based on the ease at which one can tear apart his credibility, the fools he hires as advisors, and the idea that he appears to be rather self-absorbed, he is not even as threatening as Jarvia, or my old buddy Leske.

I don't see how being self-absorbed makes you less of a threat. He's not blind, after all. What fools does he hire at advisors? Vartag? More than likely he has him around because as a member of a lesser house that would never amount to anything with Bhelen, he's sure to be more loyal than someone with other options and so Vartag can do all the dirty work and if he gets caught Bhelen can just act shocked at Vartag's depravity and cut him loose.

Besides, how is it easy to tear apart his credibility? By getting the documents that Vartag is tied to authenticated and proven false? The only real hole you can poke is if you betray Bhelen pre-Jarvia quest and find letters that he didn't mean to be just lying around about how he killed Trian. I'm sure he at least disguised his handwriting or had Vartag write it so it won't be an iron-clad case against him. His men would have likely made sure to get rid of that evidence if you don't take it when you first kill Jarvia. Even if that comes out, so what? He's still King and while it will hurt his reputation it's hardly a fatal wound and that doesn't make him less threatening.

Edit: I mean, seriously. It's one thing to think that his goals will change and thus he'll stop being good for the dwarven people, to think that his reforms come at too high of a cost, to think that the minute he dies things will go back to the way they were, whatever. But where in game are you getting this theory that Bhelen is a bumbling idiot from? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 septembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[Caralampio]

The first time I played (oh the wonder) not knowing anything about the contenders, I thought that Bhelen was cool, being prince, heir and all that, and Harrowmont an upstart. This was until I was asked to plant the (obviously false) documents. I felt that this was way below a Grey Warden, and sided with Harrowmont. (At that time I also had the notion that wardens were do-gooders and hadn't understood the GW "anything it takes to win" philosophy).



After playing the DN origin, I came even more to hate Bhelen. He's quite a bad guy. So I only side with him if I am roleplaying a bad-guy warden (which I rarely do, I like to play the paladin of justice better).

[Nerevar-as]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Is it possible to end in good terms with him anyway without feeling too forgiving?

With Bhelen as a DN? Sure. Give the crown to him at the last second while openly telling Vartag that Bhelen is a horrible person or else working with Bhelen the whole time and say things like 'We need a strong King now' ,'The throne belongs with the Aeducans', or 'I can never forgive you but we can work together for now.' There are also plenty of opportunities to be hostile towards him while working with him and he responds in kind. Once you put him on the throne, he's thrilled no matter if you were working with him or pleasant or not and he immediately restores you to House Aeducan.

At least he´s not an Ungrateful Bastard.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't see how being self-absorbed makes you less of a threat. He's not blind, after all. What fools does he hire at advisors? Vartag? More than likely he has him around because as a member of a lesser house that would never amount to anything with Bhelen, he's sure to be more loyal than someone with other options and so Vartag can do all the dirty work and if he gets caught Bhelen can just act shocked at Vartag's depravity and cut him loose.

If one tends to look inward all the time, it makes manipulation easier to be applied to that indv. And if one builds their foundation with foolish workers, do not be too surprised when it comes falling down in the near future.

Besides, how is it easy to tear apart his credibility? By getting the documents that Vartag is tied to authenticated and proven false? The only real hole you can poke is if you betray Bhelen pre-Jarvia quest and find letters that he didn't mean to be just lying around about how he killed Trian. I'm sure he at least disguised his handwriting or had Vartag write it so it won't be an iron-clad case against him. His men would have likely made sure to get rid of that evidence if you don't take it when you first kill Jarvia. Even if that comes out, so what? He's still King and while it will hurt his reputation it's hardly a fatal wound and that doesn't make him less threatening.

If the Warden works for Bhelen for any length, he gets evidence of falisified documents towards the Nobles with Vartag's confession attached, and then may gain even more false documents concerning Harrowmont and Jarvia. Then there is the documentation from King Endrin in Harrowmont's possesion. Plenty of evidence left lying about, plus the witnesses of other criminal involvment, including the bribed members of the Assemby that are already drifting away from his grasp.

Edit: I mean, seriously. It's one thing to think that his goals will change and thus he'll stop being good for the dwarven people, to think that his reforms come at too high of a cost, to think that the minute he dies things will go back to the way they were, whatever. But where in game are you getting this theory that Bhelen is a bumbling idiot from? 

For one example is in the way he foolishly berates the Warden for working for Harrowmont just before gaining the Crown; gotta luv the pompous windbag losing face then. Then the Warden can illustrate the kind of rule to expect when Harrowmont is sentenced to a quick demise, and then the Tyrant tag is aptly applied by the Warden.

While Bhelen may be drawn as a wily fox, he is not nearly as crafty as some believe; just about as simplistic and lust driven as Zev and Oghren.

[Mr.Tacito]

I chose Bhelen because of the Epilogue...

[RVallant]

for da2 id hold off on the choice. I can see bioware throwing a curveball and noting that at the end of 10 years bhelen brings orz to utter ruin through a divided society who knows, wait and see i suppose.