234 réponses à ce sujet

[ashwind]

What the dwarves have can only barely be called a democracy. It's even less of a democracy than the roman republic with it's Senator's for life. Anyone who is not a member of the noble houses has no say whatsoever. It is purely the concentration of power only in a few more people than the king and they make it abundantly clear how little they care for the other castes and casteless.



I don't think keeping such a system in place is necesarily a good thing



The Dwarves most certainly do not have a democracy or any kind of republic. The nobles (like 1% of the population) set the rules and everyone else gets the shaft.

Still slightly better than a dictatorship where 1 man has all the power - and power corrupts when unchecked.

[rayvioletta]

this is exactly why I loved this choice. most other choices, in Dragon Age and most other games (those that even offer any choices at all) are usually clearly defined good and evil. or at least ruthless or compassionate. but this one, especially if you have all the information, is a genuine moral dilemma

[sephiroth199127]

I find Bhelen is better in the long run but Harrowmont is less of a dick. Which is why it's a real kick in the balls you can't save Harrowmont if you chose Bhelen

[wickedgoodreed]

rayvioletta wrote...

this is exactly why I loved this choice. most other choices, in Dragon Age and most other games (those that even offer any choices at all) are usually clearly defined good and evil. or at least ruthless or compassionate. but this one, especially if you have all the information, is a genuine moral dilemma

I really like a good moral dilemma though I wish they gave you enough information to make a more informed decision within the quest itself. It only really becomes a genuine moral dilemma if you try to make a decision with the information you learn from the epilogue screens, and I try not to metagame too much. As is, I felt like the whole choice was a bit forced. Unless I play a dwarf, none of my characters felt it was their place to make the decision to begin with. There is very little to go on in order to gain an understanding of what the candidates' platforms actually are and what the implications of that might be even after speaking to them. And without a patch trying to get both sides of the story from the candidates themselves broke the quest. Either way, the design of it makes it feel as though you are meant to make a blind, one-sided decision.

Modifié par wickedgoodreed, 31 août 2010 - 01:08 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I chose Harrowmont as a human noble; I really didn't like Bhelen's attitude.

[termokanden]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

I really like a good moral dilemma though I wish they gave you enough information to make a more informed decision within the quest itself. It only really becomes a genuine moral dilemma if you try to make a decision with the information you learn from the epilogue screens, and I try not to metagame too much. As is, I felt like the whole choice was a bit forced. Unless I play a dwarf, none of my characters felt it was their place to make the decision to begin with. There is very little to go on in order to gain an understanding of what the candidates' platforms actually are and what the implications of that might be even after speaking to them. And without a patch trying to get both sides of the story from the candidates themselves broke the quest. Either way, the design of it makes it feel as though you are meant to make a blind, one-sided decision.

Indeed, it felt the same way to me. You are forced to make a relatively uninformed decision and then after the game you are told that your choice was bad.

If you play the dwarf noble origin, at least you know that Bhelen is a worthless murderer.

Modifié par termokanden, 31 août 2010 - 01:40 .

[mousestalker]

termokanden wrote...

wickedgoodreed wrote...

I really like a good moral dilemma though I wish they gave you enough information to make a more informed decision within the quest itself. It only really becomes a genuine moral dilemma if you try to make a decision with the information you learn from the epilogue screens, and I try not to metagame too much. As is, I felt like the whole choice was a bit forced. Unless I play a dwarf, none of my characters felt it was their place to make the decision to begin with. There is very little to go on in order to gain an understanding of what the candidates' platforms actually are and what the implications of that might be even after speaking to them. And without a patch trying to get both sides of the story from the candidates themselves broke the quest. Either way, the design of it makes it feel as though you are meant to make a blind, one-sided decision.

Indeed, it felt the same way to me. You are forced to make a relatively uninformed decision and then after the game you are told that your choice was bad.

If you play the dwarf noble origin, at least you know that Bhelen is a worthless murderer.

What makes it better is if you play the dwarf commoner origin. Then you know that Harrowmount is useless and Bhelen is the best hope your family has.

The writers did excellent work setting it up as a coin flip no matter how deep you delve into the back story. Metagaming knowledge doesn't really help solving it either. The only (relatively) clear choices are provided by the two dwarf origins. Everyone else is left with qualms, doubt and uncertainty.

[phaonica]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

I really like a good moral dilemma though I wish they gave you enough information to make a more informed decision within the quest itself. It only really becomes a genuine moral dilemma if you try to make a decision with the information you learn from the epilogue screens, and I try not to metagame too much. As is, I felt like the whole choice was a bit forced. Unless I play a dwarf, none of my characters felt it was their place to make the decision to begin with. There is very little to go on in order to gain an understanding of what the candidates' platforms actually are and what the implications of that might be even after speaking to them. And without a patch trying to get both sides of the story from the candidates themselves broke the quest. Either way, the design of it makes it feel as though you are meant to make a blind, one-sided decision.

I actually like that the quest is built this way. Sometimes you *don't* get to have all the information and you have to base a decision on that. It might not be a moral decision because you don't have enough information to make a moral decision about it, all you have is what you know.

Then later someone can come along and say "wow, you really screwed that one up, I would have done *this* if it had been me," And you can argue "well, I would have done it that way if I had known that at the time!"

Fun times.

[Gnoster]

rayvioletta wrote...

this is exactly why I loved this choice. most other choices, in Dragon Age and most other games (those that even offer any choices at all) are usually clearly defined good and evil. or at least ruthless or compassionate. but this one, especially if you have all the information, is a genuine moral dilemma

Totally agree with this.

[termokanden]

mousestalker wrote...

The writers did excellent work setting it up as a coin flip no matter how deep you delve into the back story. Metagaming knowledge doesn't really help solving it either. The only (relatively) clear choices are provided by the two dwarf origins. Everyone else is left with qualms, doubt and uncertainty.

I just wish there was some way of resolving it that didn't result in a small disaster.

The choice reminds me a lot of some of the ones in Mass Effect. Someone at Bioware doesn't like politicians I think

[Sarah1281]

Why are people considering an oligarchy more moral and better for the dwarven people than a monarchy which shows signs of being an absolute monarchy?

[termokanden]

I for one do not think there's much of a real difference there.



It's more the person or persons in charge I'm worried about.

[wickedgoodreed]

phaonica wrote...

I actually like that the quest is built this way. Sometimes you *don't* get to have all the information
and you have to base a decision on that. It might not be a moral
decision because you don't have enough information to make a moral
decision about it, all you have is what you know.

Then later someone can come along and say "wow, you really screwed that one up, I
would have done *this* if it had been me," And you can argue "well, I
would have done it that way if I had known that at the time!"

Fun times. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png

True! Which is why the majority of the time I wind up going with Harrowmont. I
figure it adds to the character of my Warden's universe that not every
decision they made turns out for the best despite their best efforts. I
still think it was a bit forced though. If I'm trying to pick a candidate, there's no real reason why I shouldn't be able to insist they tell me a bit more about their political viewpoints before agreeing to become their lackey.

Modifié par wickedgoodreed, 31 août 2010 - 02:32 .

[ejoslin]

I always pick Bhelen. The nobles are mixed, Bhelen vs Harrowmont. The casteless are apathetic. The merchants strongly support Bhelen. I listened to the criers, heard that Bhelen was ready to break tradition, marry a casteless (though if you play DC you learn that that's not exactly true).



I learned Dwarven politics are bloody and ruthless. I learned that Orzammar is stagnated when the assembly is deadlocked. I learned that one candidate was openly bribing families for votes and the other resorted to forgery to make the bribes null and void.



I saw the ugly side of Dwarven life. I saw that the nicer seeming candidate supported keeping things the way they were, even though it was killing off the dwarven race (as Zevran says, in 100 years, if things keep going the way they are, the only dwarves left will be surface dwarves.



And yes, I agreed with Zevran about Harrowmont being a weaker leader. And my warden couldn't afford to have an assembly arguing over troops being sent to the surface -- a strong leader was needed.



No metagame knowledge was necessary for me to choose Bhelen.

[Wulfram]

I find it difficult to pay attention to Bhelen's policies when he's so obviously dishonest.



Would you buy a used nug from this man?

[Wulfram]

MariSkep wrote...

No but who cares about the nug? He's obviously interested in expanding his power and the only way to do that is to destroy all the things keeping the dwarven kingdom isolated from the surface trade, vulnerable to the darkspawn and in a caste system so ridiculous it'd be funny, if some goddamn cleaning lady hadn't spit on commoner for being a commoner. He's got my vote. 

Didn't say I enjoy giving it to him but he's got no reason not to deliver on his promises. It's in his best interest to do so.

But as soon as it becomes handy, does anyone doubt he'd happily feed every single casteless to the darkspawn?

Plus, the only interaction my characters tend to have with him - or rather his servants - suggests that he has the leadership ability of a radish.  Someone so manifestly untrustworthy isn't going to get any loyalty in return.

[LobselVith8]

Unless you play as a Dwarf you really don't get that much information about Bhelen or Harrowmont, unless you listen to the criers. Harrowmont may be viewed as a good man by Wardens playing as a non-Dwarf, but he is a traditionalist keeping the castless powerless, while Bhelen is criticized for marrying a casteless woman and is willing to change things to improve the lot of the casteless (regardless of his motives). Bhelen is willing to change things in the favor of the casteless while some people assume that Harrowmont is a good man because they play as a non-Dwarf, where they don't directly experience the ugly side of Orzammar.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
maybe if your character doubts their ability in the Proving, you might be more willing to go with Bhelen.

 

I think fighting dwarves in the Proving isn't as dangerous as fighting darkspawn in the Deep Roads in order to curry favor with Bhelen.

ashwind wrote...

What the dwarves have can only barely be called a democracy. It's even less of a democracy than the roman republic with it's Senator's for life. Anyone who is not a member of the noble houses has no say whatsoever. It is purely the concentration of power only in a few more people than the king and they make it abundantly clear how little they care for the other castes and casteless.

I don't think keeping such a system in place is necesarily a good thing

The Dwarves most certainly do not have a democracy or any kind of republic. The nobles (like 1% of the population) set the rules and everyone else gets the shaft.

Still slightly better than a dictatorship where 1 man has all the power - and power corrupts when unchecked.

So a weak man like Harrowmont, who has no problem keeping the casteless down, is better than a strong leader like Bhelen, who will give the casteless rights and improve things for future generations?

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...

I saw the ugly side of Dwarven life. I saw that the nicer seeming candidate supported keeping things the way they were, even though it was killing off the dwarven race (as Zevran says, in 100 years, if things keep going the way they are, the only dwarves left will be surface dwarves.

And yes, I agreed with Zevran about Harrowmont being a weaker leader. And my warden couldn't afford to have an assembly arguing over troops being sent to the surface -- a strong leader was needed.

No metagame knowledge was necessary for me to choose Bhelen.

At which points does Zevran make comments in Orzammar? When you first enter and witness the argument between Bhelen and Harrowmont? I had him in the party a few times but have never gotten his comments.

[Corker]

I get it when I come out of the Assembly Chamber and Dulin tries to recruit me for Harrowmont. I've usually talked to Vartag at that point and accepted "A Prince's Favor" but not yet completed it.

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

No but who cares about the nug? He's obviously interested in expanding his power and the only way to do that is to destroy all the things keeping the dwarven kingdom isolated from the surface trade, vulnerable to the darkspawn and in a caste system so ridiculous it'd be funny, if some goddamn cleaning lady hadn't spit on commoner for being a commoner. He's got my vote. 

Didn't say I enjoy giving it to him but he's got no reason not to deliver on his promises. It's in his best interest to do so.

But as soon as it becomes handy, does anyone doubt he'd happily feed every single casteless to the darkspawn?

Plus, the only interaction my characters tend to have with him - or rather his servants - suggests that he has the leadership ability of a radish.  Someone so manifestly untrustworthy isn't going to get any loyalty in return.

What possible good could feeding all the casteless to darkspawn do? Yes, he arms them and sends them off to fight darkspawn wehre many of them will be killed but they're glad to have the right to die fighting darkspawn and get many more rights as well.

What does he do which shows he has 'the leadership ability of a radish'? Untrustworthy, sure, but an inability to lead? Since when do you have to be trustworthy to lead well? Your allies may change a lot and people might have no idea what your real goal is but that doesn't mean you can't accomplish it.

And I maintain that a non-dwarf can fairly easily figure out Harrowmont's traditional position. Both criers talk about how traditional Harrowmont is (Harrowmont's crier accuses Bhelen of being untraditional, for example, which if nothing else points to Harrowmont valuing tradition) and if you go to the Shaperate and ask questions about, say, the casteless you find out what that tradition really means.

[phaonica]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Unless you play as a Dwarf you really don't get that much information about Bhelen or Harrowmont, unless you listen to the criers.

The criers are propagandists. I didn't think I could get a lot of reliable information from them.

Harrowmont may be viewed as a good man by Wardens playing as a non-Dwarf, but he is a traditionalist keeping the castless powerless,

How do you infer this? From something that Harrowmont himself says or from someone else? Do you have to play a dwarven character to get this information?

while Bhelen is criticized for marrying a casteless woman and is willing to change things to improve the lot of the casteless

I thought dwarven nobles were allowed to raise the castless? Why is he being criticized? And other than marrying a castless, what is said that makes anyone think the casteless' lot will be improved under Bhelen?

I mean, I know a lot is said by the dwarves about the candidates, but I just couldn't take anything they said at face value because of what I perceived as caste bias, and (given the information from the criers) straight up ignorance.

I think fighting dwarves in the Proving isn't as dangerous as fighting darkspawn in the Deep Roads in order to curry favor with Bhelen.

Yes, but at the point where you are making that decision, you can't know that doing Bhelen's errand will take you into the Deep Roads.

[Sarah1281]

I thought dwarven nobles were allowed to raise the castless? Why is he being criticized? And other than marrying a castless, what is said that makes anyone think the casteless' lot will be improved under Bhelen?

Dwarven nobles could have children with casteless and, if it was the same sex as the noble parent, raise the casteless up to be a CONCUBINE (although the more conservative families frowned on it) The problem here is that Bhelen's being accused of actually seeking to MARRY Rica.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
The criers are propagandists. I didn't think I could get a lot of reliable information from them.

You don't get reliable info on the person they are slandering. But you get info on the people they are supporting.

If Harrowmont's crier accuses Bhelen of being untraditional, you can infer that Harrowmont is traditional or favors tradition. If Bhelen's crier accuses Harrowmont of being disrespectful towards the castless, you can infer that Bhelen believes the casteless ought to be respected or at the very least not be considered nothing....etc etc.