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[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I thought dwarven nobles were allowed to raise the castless? Why is he being criticized? And other than marrying a castless, what is said that makes anyone think the casteless' lot will be improved under Bhelen?

Dwarven nobles could have children with casteless and, if it was the same sex as the noble parent, raise the casteless up to be a CONCUBINE (although the more conservative families frowned on it) The problem here is that Bhelen's being accused of actually seeking to MARRY Rica.

Ah I see.
Any chance someone who didn't play a dwarf would be able to make that connection?

It's been ages since I've played, and I always figured it was a puzzle that I epically failed to solve. And am still failing.

[Wulfram]

Even about their own candidates, the criers aren't particularly reliable. They're saying what they think will get their candidate elected.



The guy I tend to find most convincing is Denek Helmi, the distinctly liberal noble you meet in the tavern.



"I doubt either candidate has been outside the Diamond Quarter in his life, but Lord Harrowmont seems a bit more... forgiving. Prince Bhelen's brilliant, I'll give him that, and subtle as sin. But I don't think anything in Orzammar matters more to him than winning."



Though I don't see Bhelen as especially subtle, not in non-dwarven playthroughs anyway. His approach to the Grey Warden is to give him a pack of easily discovered lies.

[Killjoy Cutter]

ashwind wrote...

Bhelen = Dictatorship
Harrowmont = Democracy

Bhelen is a dictator, putting him on the throne will perhaps give the dwarves some short term benefit but at what cost? At the cost of dissolving the Assembly . Maybe Bhelen is capable but what happens if he appoint some stupid dictator as successor? Corruption, war, dwarven rights violation, etc etc. No more check and balance in place.

Harrowmont makes for a bad leader but at least the dwarves still get to vote on issues and who to be king in the future. I pick Harrowmont because I trust that the people will finally vote for a good ruler and if they happen to vote for a dictator and destroy themselves, it will not be my warden's doing XD

Democracy?  Not really.  It's an oligarchy whose main power lies in confirming the succession to the throne.

[Sarah1281]

Though I don't see Bhelen as especially subtle, not in non-dwarven playthroughs anyway. His approach to the Grey Warden is to give him a pack of easily discovered lies.

I tend to think that that was more Vartag's doing than Bhelen's. Bhelen instructed him to do what it took to hurt the competition but wasn't told exactly what for plausible deniability. And I don't think it's unlikely that a non-DN Warden wouldn't think to go have the documents authenticated whereas a DN Warden would realize that that's just how Orzammar works. What I do find odd is that Lord and Lady Dace don't think to get the documents checked out. Lord Helmi just doesn't care anymore so that's easier to see but you'd think that his mother (given the land she's supposed to get) would check on them at some point...

[phaonica]

Wulfram wrote...

Even about their own candidates, the criers aren't particularly reliable. They're saying what they think will get their candidate elected.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this. Just because one of them might say "Bhelen disregards traditions!", I still feel like I can't assume that Bhelen actually disregards traditions or that Harrowmont regards them any better. I might gather that Harrowmont is appealing to the traditional crowd, but I can't know if Harrowmont himself is traditional.

Even disregarding that I would feel (as a non-dwarf) that I had no place deciding the outcome of a dwarven revolution, do you really want to encourage a revolution if you're wanting your troops with as little conflict as possible?  

The guy I tend to find most convincing is Denek Helmi, the distinctly liberal noble you meet in the tavern.

"I doubt either candidate has been outside the Diamond Quarter in his life, but Lord Harrowmont seems a bit more... forgiving. Prince Bhelen's brilliant, I'll give him that, and subtle as sin. But I don't think anything in Orzammar matters more to him than winning."

I remember this guy. I did find him to be convincing. He seemed knowledgeable and less biased.

[mousestalker]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Though I don't see Bhelen as especially subtle, not in non-dwarven playthroughs anyway. His approach to the Grey Warden is to give him a pack of easily discovered lies.

I tend to think that that was more Vartag's doing than Bhelen's. Bhelen instructed him to do what it took to hurt the competition but wasn't told exactly what for plausible deniability. And I don't think it's unlikely that a non-DN Warden wouldn't think to go have the documents authenticated whereas a DN Warden would realize that that's just how Orzammar works. What I do find odd is that Lord and Lady Dace don't think to get the documents checked out. Lord Helmi just doesn't care anymore so that's easier to see but you'd think that his mother (given the land she's supposed to get) would check on them at some point...

My very first run through was City Elf Female, so that has shaped my perceptions. If you are playing an elf, Lord Helmi comes across as not too terribly bright, a bit full of himself, condescending and a bit ignorant. He does mean well which is pretty damning, actually.

Lady Dace is just flat out stupid since if you say anything to her other than 'you might want to look at these' she insults you.

It's fear, tradition and armed might that keep these fools in power. Bhelen actually does the right thing when he eliminates the Assembly.

[Gnoster]

I think the trader in the merchant area supporting Bhelen is pretty straightforward also (not just Lord Helmi). He has no problem saying he supports Bhelen, and the sole reason for doing so, which is "where the trade is". I seem to remember he states something about Bhelen promising to open up for more surface trade, and that Orzammar cannot function without the surface world. This was a huge influence on my last playthrough where I picked Bhelen.

[SirOccam]

I always choose Bhelen too. It's not just metagaming though...my preferred character is a city elf, so how the city treats its poor is something of a sensitive area for him.

He starts out (before he really knows anything about either one) mildly in favor of Bhelen, because he's the king's son, and it seems awfully convenient that Harrowmont was the only one there when Endrin said he should rule and not Bhelen.

So he goes to Vartag Gavorn and gets the documents, but can't resist checking with the Shaperate, and finds out they have been tampered with. He confronts Vartag, and is pretty pissed about it, being a fairly naïve/idealistic guy, so he decides to work for the more "honorable" Harrowmont.

But then, over the course of everything, and especially his experiences in Dust Town, it slowly dawns on him that Bhelen's more radical ideas are what would be better for Orzammar and even Ferelden to an extent. So he pulls a surprise switcharoo and names Bhelen king at the end. He still dislikes him intensely, and leaves Orzammar with a dirty taste in his mouth.

Anyway, that's how I've rationalized it for my character.

[MinorCatalyst]

My first playthrough with my Mage Warden, I hadn't yet done the Dwarf origins, so I choose Harrowmont, who seemed far more ethical than the more scheming Bhelen.

Even after playing through the Dwarf origins, I think I'd still support Harrowmont over Bhelen (if reluctantly). Bhelen might be a more effective and egalitarian ruler, but he dissolves Orzammar's assembly - essentially their system of checks and balances. Even if Bhelen always uses his almost-unlimited political power for Orzammar's best interests, there's no guarantee that those that come after him would, and with no limits on their political power, there's no way to ensure later rulers would. A later ruler could revoke the rights granted to the casteless easily.  Orzammar needed to change directions, but not that way.

Modifié par MinorCatalyst, 01 septembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I saw the ugly side of Dwarven life. I saw that the nicer seeming candidate supported keeping things the way they were, even though it was killing off the dwarven race (as Zevran says, in 100 years, if things keep going the way they are, the only dwarves left will be surface dwarves.

And yes, I agreed with Zevran about Harrowmont being a weaker leader. And my warden couldn't afford to have an assembly arguing over troops being sent to the surface -- a strong leader was needed.

No metagame knowledge was necessary for me to choose Bhelen.

At which points does Zevran make comments in Orzammar? When you first enter and witness the argument between Bhelen and Harrowmont? I had him in the party a few times but have never gotten his comments.

There are the party barks (places where one of your party members says something) and in one of those Zevran comments about the dwarven race dying out -- it's random, who speaks.  That particular one is in the Diamond Quarter, when you look over the city.  Also, when you talk to Harrowmont's second, Zevran speaks up quite scathingly, and calls Harrowmont a weak leader.

[Nerevar-as]

Zjarcal wrote...

I almost always pick Harrowmont because without metagame knowledge it's hard to guess who will be the better ruler in the long run. You can get hints that Bhelen is more progressive but it's not enough to convince my characters to work with Bhelen, who they view as a scumbag.

So I end up screwing the Dwarves for refusing to metagame...

I justified myself by having the Warden realize how the castless are living and that Harrowmont for all his so called honor is a firm supporter of that. If you play Human Noble remember the cook´s tale about the dog. Honor means little by itself alone.

[Koremark]

In truth we need to get our hands on Biowares Canon Time line which they amdit they have already.

so with out we have to wait a long time to see which ends up being better.



Thu please note that a Paragon and override the King and the assembly.



For the most part Siding after siding with Bhelen have to a Shower it just makes me that dirty....

[Nerevar-as]

SirOccam wrote...

I always choose Bhelen too. It's not just metagaming though...my preferred character is a city elf, so how the city treats its poor is something of a sensitive area for him.

He starts out (before he really knows anything about either one) mildly in favor of Bhelen, because he's the king's son, and it seems awfully convenient that Harrowmont was the only one there when Endrin said he should rule and not Bhelen.

So he goes to Vartag Gavorn and gets the documents, but can't resist checking with the Shaperate, and finds out they have been tampered with. He confronts Vartag, and is pretty pissed about it, being a fairly naïve/idealistic guy, so he decides to work for the more "honorable" Harrowmont.

But then, over the course of everything, and especially his experiences in Dust Town, it slowly dawns on him that Bhelen's more radical ideas are what would be better for Orzammar and even Ferelden to an extent. So he pulls a surprise switcharoo and names Bhelen king at the end. He still dislikes him intensely, and leaves Orzammar with a dirty taste in his mouth.

Anyway, that's how I've rationalized it for my character.

The documents were false? Both families react as if they had been offered what the documents say. Which wouldn´t make sense if one of them hadn´t.

[Herr Uhl]

The documents were technically forged, but they were right IIRC.

[Nerevar-as]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The documents were technically forged, but they were right IIRC.

Ah. At least Harrowmont wasn´t stupid enough to leave written evidence of his double dealings.

This quest really is a "choose the lesser evil" as you are doing it. You don´t know if you were right until the epilogue. Pity there ara no more like it. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Koremark wrote...

In truth we need to get our hands on Biowares Canon Time line which they amdit they have already.
so with out we have to wait a long time to see which ends up being better.

A canon timeline wouldn't change which is better. It would just determine which happened.

The 'better' ending, if you judge it by the rights of the poor, the overall health and wealth of the nation, the stability and future of the Dwarven nation, is with Bhelen.

Thu please note that a Paragon and override the King and the assembly.

For the most part Siding after siding with Bhelen have to a Shower it just makes me that dirty....

A paragon's vote can outweigh the Assembly, but it does not override. It's the difference between a decisive vote and no vote at all: Paragons are not necessarily rulers, and can't dictate policy. Branka, for example, couldn't force Orzamaar to spend all it's resources to help her mission: she had to stick with her own house.

[Sarah1281]

Ah. At least Harrowmont wasn´t stupid enough to leave written evidence of his double dealings.

He didn't have any double dealings. From what I can tell, Helmi's papers claimed that Dace had been given the land Helmi had received as well and Dace's papers claimed that Helmi had been given the (different) land that Dace had been promised.

Bhelen might be a more effective and egalitarian ruler, but he dissolves Orzammar's assembly - essentially their system of checks and balances. Even if Bhelen always uses his almost-unlimited political power for Orzammar's best interests, there's no guarantee that those that come after him would, and with no limits on their political power, there's no way to ensure later rulers would.

No, but there IS a guarentee that the Assembly won't be doing that anytime soon. The problem with the Assembly is that they're so insanely corrupt that they never get anything done and consider it 'practical' to not give a damn about anything but the best interests of their House. Modern notions of what a good government should be aside (and the Assembly doesn't really fit in with that) then how are they a good thing?

[LobselVith8]

MinorCatalyst wrote...

My first playthrough with my Mage Warden, I hadn't yet done the Dwarf origins, so I choose Harrowmont, who seemed far more ethical than the more scheming Bhelen.

Even after playing through the Dwarf origins, I think I'd still support Harrowmont over Bhelen (if reluctantly). Bhelen might be a more effective and egalitarian ruler, but he dissolves Orzammar's assembly - essentially their system of checks and balances. Even if Bhelen always uses his almost-unlimited political power for Orzammar's best interests, there's no guarantee that those that come after him would, and with no limits on their political power, there's no way to ensure later rulers would. A later ruler could revoke the rights granted to the casteless easily.  Orzammar needed to change directions, but not that way.

Except there's no telling when or if a future King would grant the casteless rights. Bhelen is willing to do anything to become the next King, but Harrowmont isn't an honorable man in comparison; he's as narrow-minded and bigoted as everyone else in Orzammar who despises the casteless. When you have the opportunity to give rights to an oppressed group of people who are denied all rights and are taught for centuries that they aren't even considered people, why not take advantage of it? Bhelen may be morally bankruptcy, but Harrowmont is a bigot who will let the casteless suffer for generations because it's tradition. 
 
As for dissolving the Assembly, this isn't a democracy, it's comprised exclusively by the noble caste who care only for themselves. As King, Bhelen is taking advantage of a precident because, according to Shaper Czibor, a previous King of Orzammar dissolved the Assembly and had said, during a time of Blight, that the warrior caste answered directly to the King.

[Nerevar-as]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ah. At least Harrowmont wasn´t stupid enough to leave written evidence of his double dealings.

He didn't have any double dealings. From what I can tell, Helmi's papers claimed that Dace had been given the land Helmi had received as well and Dace's papers claimed that Helmi had been given the (different) land that Dace had been promised.

 

I think that would mean the land names in the papers would have to be different. At least 2 Origins can read dwarvish and realize of that.

Why do you have a problem with (if you have, it seems so) Harromont also playing dirty? Orzammar nobility playes The Game of Thrones, and either you win or die.

[Sarah1281]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ah. At least Harrowmont wasn´t stupid enough to leave written evidence of his double dealings.

He didn't have any double dealings. From what I can tell, Helmi's papers claimed that Dace had been given the land Helmi had received as well and Dace's papers claimed that Helmi had been given the (different) land that Dace had been promised.

 

I think that would mean the land names in the papers would have to be different. At least 2 Origins can read dwarvish and realize of that.

Why do you have a problem with (if you have, it seems so) Harromont also playing dirty? Orzammar nobility playes The Game of Thrones, and either you win or die.

I have absolutely no problem with Harrowmont playing dirty. If you take the papers to the Shaperate, though, he tells you that the terms of the deal spelled out on the paper are different than the deal actually made. The reason I think that Vartag must have altered it so that the land that  it looked like House Dace was promised the land that House Helmi was actually receiving on the paper you show Lord Helmi and vice versa is because otherwise it makes it appear that Lord Helmi and Lady and Lord Dace don't remember what land they were supposed to be getting. Admittedly, Lord Helmi didn't bother looking at the papers but both Daces did and Lord Dace was the one who made the terms of the agreement. As such, I would expect him to know what the agreement actually was. And, in fact, he outright states that the papers he saw were the terms of the agreement that he made with Harrowmont and House Helmi appeared to be promised that same land which lends support to my theory. It makes no sense that the papers could have been done any other way unless Vartag was counting on the fact that Lord Helmi wouldn't even bother to look at the papers and so both of the papers showed that House Helmi was also promised the land that, in actuality, was promised to House Dace. Given the way that things played out, if it had been done that way then there would be no contradictions even if the Warden was nosey and naive enough to carefully look through the papers he thought were real. OTOH, it seems like quite a big risk to take when Lord Helmi might have known the terms of the deal or taken the papers home to run by his mother who certainly would have known them and would have realized what Vartag was trying to do.

I'm not saying that Harrowmont is a saint who has never done anything wrong. I'm saying that we have the Shaper telling you and Vartag, when pressed, admitting that Harrowmont was not doubledealing Helmi and Dace. This doesn't have to mean he's a better person than Bhelen, just that he's smart enough to know that even if he did that - even if he did become King as it wasn't found out about in time - then he'd make an enemy of two of the most powerful Houses in Orzammar.

I really don't like the implication that I don't know how Orzammar politics works, btw.  These people are corrupt but if they are stupid about it they're never going to get anywhere.

[Obadiah]

Bhelen is good for Dwarven society in the short term, if you were not one of the dwarves that supported Harrowmont's "coup" and were executed (speak to the Harrowmont fighters after Bhelen's ascension), and you discount the bloodshed from the purges in the wake of his reforms.

And since the reforms are imposed with no lasting institutions, once Bhelen dies, nothing stops the reforms from being rolled back.

Modifié par Obadiah, 01 septembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[Obadiah]

LobselVith8 wrote...
When you have the opportunity to give rights to an oppressed group of people who are denied all rights and are taught for centuries that they aren't even considered people, why not take advantage of it?

Does Bhelen ever make that argument to the Warden, or are his intentions only implied by overheard conversations and meta-game knowledge?

[testing123]

Wow, the Harrowmont hate is strong here.  I feel like he is being misrepresented in some respects, while Bhelen is being deified.  I've only played through Orzammar twice, once as a human mage and once as a human noble so perhaps I was not privy to some of the information others were when they made their decision, but I suspect you are unlikely to find information that portrays Harrowmont in a particularly negative light.  The debate is fairly clearly defined as compassionate but weak versus strong and ruthless.

In many ways, the point of the game is to force you to weigh how much you are willing to sacrifice for the 'greater good.'  Bhelen v. Harrowmont is merely a microcosm illustrating that philosophical debate.  You cannot, in good conscience, argue that supporting Bhelen is without cost.  How many had to die for him to achieve his goals?  How many more would he sacrifice to ensure his authority was never questioned?  There is no rule of law with Bhelen, only self preservation.  There is no moral center that dictates his choices, he seeks only to acquire and preserve his power.  Handing over the keys to the kingdom to him terrifies me.

When you choose Bhelen, Harrowmont's fate is sealed.  The immediacy of his death is very much intended to implicate the player in the decision.  But Harrowmont is merely the first casualty.  How many more would you sacrifice to ensure Orzammar has a strong king that institutes change?  Is there a limit?  When have you ceased to be protecting your people and begun oppressing them?  

Knowing how the epilogue played out, I went into my second game intending to choose Bhelen.  But I just couldn't do it.  Sure, Harrowmont is weak.  His policies of always seeking compromise and deferring to the assembly can't work in the dwarven political arena.  But if he fails... when he fails, it won't be for lack of trying.  The system is broken.  Apparently only a power hungry despot is capable of changing that.  The price of change was too steep for me.

I can see why someone might choose differently.  It just frustrates me when someone claims what I perceive as the 'moral high ground' when defending Bhelen.  Considering how things turn out, even I want to choose differently.  I was looking for any reason to choose Bhelen in the moment, but I just couldn't find one.  My impression was that he was a truly horrible person who, in his very personal quest for power, improved the lives of many people.

Modifié par jvee, 01 septembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[SirOccam]

I don't think anyone is saying that supporting Bhelen is without cost. But it would seem his methods are what it takes to get Orzammar on the right path. Revolution is seldom bloodless.

And I wouldn't call Harrowmont compassionate. He seems a little more affable at first, but look at his attitudes towards the casteless. He reminds me of some members of my family who are both Christian and Republican. Their disdain for the poor and uninsured is simply shocking, considering the tenets of their religion.

(Please no RL politics debates...it's just an example, and it's not about ALL Christians or ALL Republicans...just those particular ones. I hope that is enough of a disclaimer.)