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[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

See, THIS is what I don't get. Harrowmont was playing the game dishonestly just as Bhelen was. Bhelen thwarted Harrowmont's attempt to BRIBE two families. Bhelen was just better at it.

I don't know, the deal was a matter of public record and the Shaper is glad to tell you all about it. It really seems to be a pretty open and honest bribery and their society doesn't seem to see anything wrong with it.

I thought that Dwarven society was based around the appearance of honor, and openly doing something sneaky was frowned on.

[ejoslin]

The Shaparate was of the same house as (*mumble*) I thought, as they were related, so would be more willing to turn a blind eye. Yes, the transfer of land was a matter of record, but I doubt it was a matter of record WHY the land was being transfered.

[Costin_Razvan]

ejoslin wrote...

The Shaparate was of the same house as (*mumble*) I thought, as they were related, so would be more willing to turn a blind eye. Yes, the transfer of land was a matter of record, but I doubt it was a matter of record WHY the land was being transfered.

Ah Ejoslin, it's good to have you back here. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Obadiah]

Sarah1281 wrote...

See, THIS is what I don't get. Harrowmont was playing the game dishonestly just as Bhelen was. Bhelen thwarted Harrowmont's attempt to BRIBE two families. Bhelen was just better at it.

I don't know, the deal was a matter of public record and the Shaper is glad to tell you all about it. It really seems to be a pretty open and honest bribery and their society doesn't seem to see anything wrong with it.

Dwarven society seems strangely bereft of laws. I mean, when you walk into Orzammar one guy kills another in the street in front of the guards. And what's the guard's response? "Wow, I wish you didn't have to see that. It's embarassing." REALLY? Shouldn't he be locked up... or... fined? Open and shut case there in front of a gazillion witnesses buddy!

[Wulfram]

When you're not playing a dwarf at least, there's really little to indicate Bhelen is more competent. His claim seems mostly based on who his father is, after all.



And, as I've said, I found his factions initial approach tremendously misjudged.

[LobselVith8]

Obadiah wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
When you have the opportunity to give rights to an oppressed group of people who are denied all rights and are taught for centuries that they aren't even considered people, why not take advantage of it?

Does Bhelen ever make that argument to the Warden, or are his intentions only implied by overheard conversations and meta-game knowledge?

Bhelen and Harrowmont both reference the Blight, not the social conditions of Orzammar.

As for what the Warden is told by the people of Orzammar, Bhelen's relationship with a casteless woman is viewed with distain by some Orzammar people, the guards guarding the Deep Roads tell the Warden that Bhelen will send warriors into the Deep Roads to regain the lost thaigs, the criers reference Bhelen wanting to marry a casteless woman and reference him being favored by them as reasons not to vote for him while the criers for Harrowmont cite his views on tradition remaining intact as a reason to side with him, and a salesman near Dust Town mentions that Bhelen wants to go against tradition and implies that Harrowmont is also suspected of murdering the King to gain the throne. The Dwarf Commoner Origin explicitly references Bhelen having goals that would benefit the casteless but I suppose you could consider that metagame knowledge if your playing as a race other than a Dwarf.

jvee wrote...

Wow, the Harrowmont hate is strong here.  I feel like he is being misrepresented in some respects, while Bhelen is being deified.  I've only played through Orzammar twice, once as a human mage and once as a human noble so perhaps I was not privy to some of the information others were when they made their decision, but I suspect you are unlikely to find information that portrays Harrowmont in a particularly negative light.  The debate is fairly clearly defined as compassionate but weak versus strong and ruthless.

In many ways, the point of the game is to force you to weigh how much you are willing to sacrifice for the 'greater good.'  Bhelen v. Harrowmont is merely a microcosm illustrating that philosophical debate.  You cannot, in good conscience, argue that supporting Bhelen is without cost.  How many had to die for him to achieve his goals?  How many more would he sacrifice to ensure his authority was never questioned?  There is no rule of law with Bhelen, only self preservation.  There is no moral center that dictates his choices, he seeks only to acquire and preserve his power.  Handing over the keys to the kingdom to him terrifies me.

When you choose Bhelen, Harrowmont's fate is sealed.  The immediacy of his death is very much intended to implicate the player in the decision.  But Harrowmont is merely the first casualty.  How many more would you sacrifice to ensure Orzammar has a strong king that institutes change?  Is there a limit?  When have you ceased to be protecting your people and begun oppressing them?  

Knowing how the epilogue played out, I went into my second game intending to choose Bhelen.  But I just couldn't do it.  Sure, Harrowmont is weak.  His policies of always seeking compromise and deferring to the assembly can't work in the dwarven political arena.  But if he fails... when he fails, it won't be for lack of trying.  The system is broken.  Apparently only a power hungry despot is capable of changing that.  The price of change was too steep for me.

I can see why someone might choose differently.  It just frustrates me when someone claims what I perceive as the 'moral high ground' when defending Bhelen.  Considering how things turn out, even I want to choose differently.  I was looking for any reason to choose Bhelen in the moment, but I just couldn't find one.  My impression was that he was a truly horrible person who, in his very personal quest for power, improved the lives of many people.

I don't think Bhelen is being deified. It's simply that he's willing to bring about change while Harrowmont wants to preserve tradition. Since that tradition includes repressing an entire group of people to be considered less than nothing, some people see Bhelen as the better of the two canidates since Harrowmont's rule leads to the castless suffering for generations to come.

MariSkep wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Bhelen is good for Dwarven society in the short term, if you were not one of the dwarves that supported Harrowmont's "coup" and were executed (speak to the Harrowmont fighters after Bhelen's ascension), and you discount the bloodshed from the purges in the wake of his reforms.

And since the reforms are imposed with no lasting institutions, once Bhelen dies, nothing stops the reforms from being rolled back.

That's an interesting point. It might be that Orzammar gets stuck in a situation like Rome did where they never have a clear successor to the throne.

That said, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to be taking back all the new rights without some kind of reprecussion. You'd have to be phenomenally thick to want all the surface trade and new arms to disappear and we're talking a whole new generation by the time Bhelen kicks it.

There's a historical precident for an Orzammar King to dissolve the Assembly during a time of Blight as the Shaperate himself tells you.

jvee wrote...

What I would find most interesting is how many of those who support Bhelen also performed the dark ritual.  Like I said, the game is constantly asking you how much you are willing to sacrifice for the greater good.  Your first act as a warden is essentially sacrificing your own life for the destruction of the archdemon.  From then on, you are forced to choose how much you are willing to sacrifice from other people for that cause.  Ultimately my answer turned out to be 'not much.'  Bhelen versus Harrowmont did the best job of illustrating this because there is an actual cost for your unwillingness to sacrifice.  In most other cases, the consequences of minimizing sacrifice are slim or nil.  Anyway, my initial point was that if you go through the game willing to sacrifice anything to maximize your chances of success versus the archdemon only to relent when Morrigan gives you the option to spare yourself, I don't know how you can't consider that an 'evil' playthrough.

Dwarven politics is a dirty business. That's made apparent in the Dwarven Noble Origin. As for the dark ritual, I don't think it's evil, so I don't think you can compare it to siding with Bhelen. I think people can view the dark ritual as a matter of trust. Morrigan has no reason to bring about anything that would threaten her survival and Thedas, and I trusted her, so I did the dark ritual, which is likely called such since it involves blood magic.

jvee wrote...

Considering that character is player controlled it is difficult to answer how he would have handled the situation.  My response is that such a character is only required to be instilled with enough wisdom and resolve to adequately handle the assembly.  Everything else is extraneous.  I do not believe that every step Bhelen took was necessary to achieve reform for dwarven society.  The steps he took were necessary to cement his power.  Any improvement to life for the casteless was purely a necessary side effect for Bhelen to secure personal power.  Intentions matter because they predict future behavior.  Since I can't see the future when I'm playing the game, Bhelen is a potentially disastrous choice.  

He's a King, I'd assume that cementing his power is part of the politics of the realm. The Assembly is comprised of nobles only, who share the bigoted views of the casteless. Most view it as a choice between tradition and change, and Bhelen will bring about that change while Harrowmont won't. Considering how Orzammar suffers because of Harrowmont's rule, Bhelen is viewed as a better choice by quite a few people. It's also the reason people chose Alistair over Anora, since Anora's rule is disastrous for the elves living in the alienage.

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

When you're not playing a dwarf at least, there's really little to indicate Bhelen is more competent. His claim seems mostly based on who his father is, after all.

And, as I've said, I found his factions initial approach tremendously misjudged.

As a non-dwarf, here is what you can find out EASILY:

Dwarven politics are vicious and bloody and dishonest.  
Bhelen may have committed fraticide, and Harrowmont was by Endrin's side when he died -- perhaps by poison.

Bhelen's men are willing to kill and die for him
Harrowmont's men can be bribed/blackmailed to not fight for him

Merchants support Bhelen because he wants to make changes to the trade system
Harrowmont wants to continue things the way they are

Orzammar is dying, population is falling off
The casteless are treated horribly -- their lives are considered less than nothing under the current rule, yet Bhelen is either marrying or involved with a casteless woman and makes no secret of it.  
Orzammar, with Harrowmont as its general, is losing the war with the darkspawn, and is unwilling to add to the ranks of his army significantly using the casteless.

Really, my main concern with Harrowmont is that his guards, the ones who should be the most loyal to him and lay down everything for him, can be intimidated to NOT fight for him.  How can he lead men who may not be as loyal?  

Edit: Costin_Razvan, hugs 

Second edit: Even the opening scene, you have one of Bhelen's men kill a guard, and you see Harrowmont's men running in fear instead of protecting Harrowmont, while Bhelen and his men stand their ground.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:23 .

[Sarah1281]

There's a historical precident for an Orzammar King to dissolve the Assembly during a time of Blight as the Shaperate himself tells you.

Plus Bhelen only does this after they won't stop trying to assassinate him. They kind of brought it on themselves.

[Obadiah]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a historical precident for an Orzammar King to dissolve the Assembly during a time of Blight as the Shaperate himself tells you.

Bhelen dissolves the assembly AFTER the blight is stopped and AFTER the thaigs have been retaken. It's clearly a power grab because he can.

[Giggles_Manically]

If you ever need a reason to pick Bhelen:

Try talking to Harrowmont or for that matter ANY other dwarf as a DC.



Gives you a whole new perspective really.

[Giggles_Manically]

Obadiah wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a historical precident for an Orzammar King to dissolve the Assembly during a time of Blight as the Shaperate himself tells you.

Bhelen dissolves the assembly AFTER the blight is stopped and AFTER the thaigs have been retaken. It's clearly a power grab because he can.

Would you let a group of people who keep sending assassians after you sit around, if you had the power to stop them.

[Costin_Razvan]

Obadiah wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a historical precident for an Orzammar King to dissolve the Assembly during a time of Blight as the Shaperate himself tells you.

Bhelen dissolves the assembly AFTER the blight is stopped and AFTER the thaigs have been retaken. It's clearly a power grab because he can.

Bull, ****ing, ****. Because he can? Do you realize that he could have dissolved it the moment he gained the crown and no one could have done squat about it? The Warden wouldn't have been able to side against Bhelen and get the army and the nobles...well he already has em cowed.

Bhelen only dissolved the Assembly to stop the assassination attempts by removing the noble houses from power.

 Try talking to Harrowmont or for that matter ANY other dwarf as a DC.

Try talking to Harrowmont as any origin and finding out how he views a king should rule.

Seriously, if I was at all inclined to ever support him, then that died the moment I heard him say the King is a position of respect. WHAT THE?!

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:23 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I agree that he is too tradition bound to be a good king.

But as a DC I serioulsy wanted to strangle him.

[Costin_Razvan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I agree that he is too tradition bound to be a good king.
But as a DC I serioulsy wanted to strangle him.

Tradition does not dictate that he should be a tool for the nobles. Hell, Endrin was a traditionalist and was a good king according to what most say about him.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I agree that he is too tradition bound to be a good king.
But as a DC I serioulsy wanted to strangle him.

Tradition does not dictate that he should be a tool for the nobles. Hell, Endrin was a traditionalist and was a good king according to what most say about him.

Its more so that I think that the specific traditions he wants to follow are bunk.
Especailly him talking about putting the war before the assembly.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Bhelen only dissolved the Assembly to stop the assassination attempts by removing the noble houses from power.

To be fair, it seems that Bhelen was already interested at how the assembly was removed in the past, if the Shaper's words are to be trusted.

I personally think that he was already contemplating it, but waited for a strong enough reason to do it and the Assembly was stupid enough to give him just that. Might be a power grap. And I don't mind, kudos for him.

[Obadiah]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Bhelen and Harrowmont both reference the Blight, not the social conditions of Orzammar.

As for what the Warden is told by the people of Orzammar, Bhelen's relationship with a casteless woman is viewed with distain by some Orzammar people, the guards guarding the Deep Roads tell the Warden that Bhelen will send warriors into the Deep Roads to regain the lost thaigs, the criers reference Bhelen wanting to marry a casteless woman and reference him being favored by them as reasons not to vote for him while the criers for Harrowmont cite his views on tradition remaining intact as a reason to side with him, and a salesman near Dust Town mentions that Bhelen wants to go against tradition and implies that Harrowmont is also suspected of murdering the King to gain the throne. The Dwarf Commoner Origin explicitly references Bhelen having goals that would benefit the casteless but I suppose you could consider that metagame knowledge if your playing as a race other than a Dwarf.

That's a fair way to look at it. But the Warden also has to take into account that Bhelen's supporter is the one that kills someone in the street upon entry, Bhelen uses blackmail to undercut Harrowmont at the provings, and Bhelen is the one who asks the Warden to lie to two people in order to gain power. Reformist or not, Bhelen is clearly the more ruthless and bloodthirsty of the the two.

The question is, is the blood Bhelen spills (and we discover that it is ALOT afterwards) worth his reforms? At the game's end, even with the Thaigs taken, uplifted casteless, and access to the surface, do you think that there is law, order, and freedom in Orzammar, or just terror and the word of Bhelen?

Though when you're a slave (and I'm playing the Dwarven Commoner origin right now) reform couldn't come fast enough. I wish there was an option to lead the casteless out of Orzammar to the surface.

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Dean_the_Young]

If I'm a Grey Warden, I've killed a lot of the people in the street. Infact, no matter which king I choose the other has followers who will do their best to kill me.



Why would anyone expect just terror and the word of Bhelen, when no one, least of all his enemies, treats him as some two-dimensional villain who just kicks puppies and poor defensless nobles?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
That's a fair way to look at it. But the Warden also has to take into account that Bhelen's supporter is the one that kills someone in the street upon entry, Bhelen uses blackmail to undercut Harrowmont at the provings, and Bhelen is the one who asks the Warden to lie to two people in order to gain power. Reformist or not, Bhelen is clearly the more ruthless and bloodthirsty of the the two.

Those actions are partially the reason why I though he would be the better king, in the contexdt that we are in.
 
And I am curious. Where does it ever mention Bhelen killing people en masse? I sure do not remember anything from the epilogue, except him forcing a few to become golemns, until he banned the anvil compeltely.

[Costin_Razvan]

The question is, is the blood Bhelen spills (and we discover that it is ALOT afterwards) worth his reforms? At the game's end, even with the Thaigs taken, uplifted casteless, and access to the surface, do you think that there is law, order, and freedom in Orzammar, or just terror and the word of Bhelen?

Huh? I don't see any mention that Bhelen spilled a LOT of Blood. Yes he sends the sons of Harrowmont to the surface to wage war, but that's not the same as killing them but more like a way of putting the Harrowmonts in their place.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Precisely Costin, I am curious at this accusation of Bhelen spilling a lot of blood. I am sure that the death toll rate is much higher with Harrowmont failing to deal with the rebellion in any case.

[mass234]

 Bhelen is a douchbag. I chose Harrowmont.