234 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

I lean toward Bhelen in my games (though I hate the bastard personally) as he seems able to get more done in his epilogue in regards to the darkspawn/caste restrictions etc. Whether he does this because he is good for Orzammar or has his own selfish agenda is beside the point. It's an ill wind that blows no good and he does manage to do some good with his rule.

Harrowmont seems like a nice enough guy, his toolset notes say he is the "good guy" candidate in the Orzammar throne story but sadly he lacks the ability to get things done when he is king. Plus he keeps the status quo of that wretched caste system and further isolates Orzammar after the Blight.



If only we could combine a king with Bhelen's ability to lead and make reforms with Harrowmont's heart we would have an easier choice of the matter. In lieu of this, I usually pick whatever feels right for my particular PC.



IMO neither is a good choice. You have a weak king too timid to say boo to the assembly or a power mad despotic child wanting the crown for his own selfish reasons. But that's all you get so like I say, I usually go with the one that will get things done.

[Elhanan]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I lean toward Bhelen in my games (though I hate the bastard personally) as he seems able to get more done in his epilogue in regards to the darkspawn/caste restrictions etc. Whether he does this because he is good for Orzammar or has his own selfish agenda is beside the point. It's an ill wind that blows no good and he does manage to do some good with his rule.
Harrowmont seems like a nice enough guy, his toolset notes say he is the "good guy" candidate in the Orzammar throne story but sadly he lacks the ability to get things done when he is king. Plus he keeps the status quo of that wretched caste system and further isolates Orzammar after the Blight.

If only we could combine a king with Bhelen's ability to lead and make reforms with Harrowmont's heart we would have an easier choice of the matter. In lieu of this, I usually pick whatever feels right for my particular PC.

IMO neither is a good choice. You have a weak king too timid to say boo to the assembly or a power mad despotic child wanting the crown for his own selfish reasons. But that's all you get so like I say, I usually go with the one that will get things done.

When playing one of my DC Wardens, my intended fix was Rica. Sis ends up as ambassador, Bhelen is exposed as corrupt, and the Warden just has to step in with his new Paragon status, including a new House to help rear his nephew. Very much like Gladiator except Bhelen remains breathing a bit longer....

[sylvanaerie]

Elhanan wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I lean toward Bhelen in my games (though I hate the bastard personally) as he seems able to get more done in his epilogue in regards to the darkspawn/caste restrictions etc. Whether he does this because he is good for Orzammar or has his own selfish agenda is beside the point. It's an ill wind that blows no good and he does manage to do some good with his rule.
Harrowmont seems like a nice enough guy, his toolset notes say he is the "good guy" candidate in the Orzammar throne story but sadly he lacks the ability to get things done when he is king. Plus he keeps the status quo of that wretched caste system and further isolates Orzammar after the Blight.

If only we could combine a king with Bhelen's ability to lead and make reforms with Harrowmont's heart we would have an easier choice of the matter. In lieu of this, I usually pick whatever feels right for my particular PC.

IMO neither is a good choice. You have a weak king too timid to say boo to the assembly or a power mad despotic child wanting the crown for his own selfish reasons. But that's all you get so like I say, I usually go with the one that will get things done.

When playing one of my DC Wardens, my intended fix was Rica. Sis ends up as ambassador, Bhelen is exposed as corrupt, and the Warden just has to step in with his new Paragon status, including a new House to help rear his nephew. Very much like Gladiator except Bhelen remains breathing a bit longer....

OMG how did you GET that ending?  I might just find it possible to finish a DC ending if I can get this one! 

[Sarah1281]

OMG how did you GET that ending? I might just find it possible to finish a DC ending if I can get this one!

I think that's just a wishful thinking type ending, like the people who insist that Harrowmont isn't really executed by Bhelen but you conscript him and drag him off to the Surface.

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

OMG how did you GET that ending? I might just find it possible to finish a DC ending if I can get this one!

I think that's just a wishful thinking type ending, like the people who insist that Harrowmont isn't really executed by Bhelen but you conscript him and drag him off to the Surface.

well, hell so much for that idea. I'm never gonna finish a dwarf origin at this rate *sigh*

[ejoslin]

That is not an ending. *sigh* I actually opened the toolset to find it, and there is nothing like that in there. All the things about Bhelen are positive, about how he's a reformer etc.

[Elhanan]

I think that's just a wishful thinking type ending, like the people who insist that Harrowmont isn't really executed by Bhelen but you conscript him and drag him off to the Surface.

^ Correct, but much more is given to cement the idea as Rica is made ambassador, the Warden does become a Paragon and gain a House, and Bhelen and his chief of staff are exposed at every step possible while I was working under Harrowmont.

The Assembly was decimated and replaced by the fighting when Bhelen died, and later disbanded under Bhelen's rule which the Warden discovered might occur during his research. As for Harrowmont living, speak to his wife; does not sound like any widow I know.

If one is not satisfied with what is given, cook up something better with your imagination given the ingredients for success.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Sarah1281]

As for Harrowmont living, speak to his wife; does not sound like any widow I know.

Dulin tells you that because of you the most honest man in Orzammar lies dead. And HE sounds quite pissed about it.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As for Harrowmont living, speak to his wife; does not sound like any widow I know.

Dulin tells you that because of you the most honest man in Orzammar lies dead. And HE sounds quite pissed about it.

Quite true, as does everyone else but Lady Harrowmont. But as the Warden does have the opportunity to meet with the new King privately, and has the right of consription so neatly shown to him earlier, I find her gentle words comforting.

[ejoslin]

Elhanan wrote...

I think that's just a wishful thinking type ending, like the people who insist that Harrowmont isn't really executed by Bhelen but you conscript him and drag him off to the Surface.

^ Correct, but much more is given to cement the idea as Rica is made ambassador, the Warden does become a Paragon and gain a House, and Bhelen and his chief of staff are exposed at every step possible while I was working under Harrowmont.

The Assembly was decimated and replaced by the fighting when Bhelen died, and later disbanded under Bhelen's rule which the Warden discovered might occur during his research. As for Harrowmont living, speak to his wife; does not sound like any widow I know.

If one is not satisfied with what is given, cook up something better with your imagination given the ingredients for success.

Well, sure, a lot of us make up our own endings.  But we don't SAY that is an ending and such.  But why would you, as a paragon, openly try to cause dissent in a government in a time of needed change?  Orzammar is finally becoming prosperous, they're FINALLY beginning to push the darkspawn back...  That sounds like a horrible thing to do, to try and undo all the good is being done.

What I think is funny is if you are a dwarf and you ask Alistair for aid in the war against the darkspawn.  Bhelen welcomes the help and they do even BETTER in the war.  Harrowmont refuses the help of troops, only accepting equipment and medicine.  He's afraid that the assembly would be mad with actual military aid.

Sounds like Harrowmont causes a LOT more death than Bhelen.

[sylvanaerie]

My problem is after playing the game with various elves and humans I have little sympathy for the dwarves. Most of this crap is of their own making and my Warden just wants troops for the bloody Blight. I don't give a flying fig who puts the crown on their heads and I despise running around in the deep roads. It's like a early vision of my ultimate end as a Warden (thanks loads Duncan, you ass). The only PC i had who cared about the Orzammar situation was my DN and even she was more into "Stick it to Bhelen mode" than anything else. Yes, petty I know but I hate backstabbers. Bhelen knew what was coming his way when Sereda returned, so its not like he didn't see it coming.

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

My problem is after playing the game with various elves and humans I have little sympathy for the dwarves. Most of this crap is of their own making and my Warden just wants troops for the bloody Blight. I don't give a flying fig who puts the crown on their heads and I despise running around in the deep roads. It's like a early vision of my ultimate end as a Warden (thanks loads Duncan, you ass). The only PC i had who cared about the Orzammar situation was my DN and even she was more into "Stick it to Bhelen mode" than anything else. Yes, petty I know but I hate backstabbers. Bhelen knew what was coming his way when Sereda returned, so its not like he didn't see it coming.

Yeah but really...the mage situation was of their own making and the Dalish/werewolf situation was also of their own making. Not all of the mages or Dalish (or werewolves, I guess) were involved in it but neither are all of the dwarves. And of course those same arguments about not caring who takes the throne and the whole mess being of their own making also applies to Ferelden and the Landsmeet. That whole 'Seriously guys, remember the Blight?' thing isn't unique to the dwarves.

[sylvanaerie]

And I do get annoyed with the Dalish and annoyed with Loghain and Eamon. Half the time I leave Anora on the throne cause my PC really doesn't give a crap who rules. Alistair doesn't want it and she does. And I'd love to annul the circle just once and keep it but I never seem able to cause they annoy me too sometimes. My annoyance is not unique to dwarves but as this thread is ABOUT the dwarves and not the Dalish, or the mages, that's why I brought it up in my post.

Eamon sick in Redcliffe isn't his doing but Loghain's. But if it were up to me, I'd finish the job Jowan started and put Teagan in charge.

The only thing I haven't found reason to do in game is spare Loghain (I just hate that bastard and killing him is as satisfying as killing Howe was on my HN) and defile the ashes (As I say, I'd rather just kill Eamon and make Teagan Arl).

[Dean_the_Young]

I think my Human Noble is the only one who really cares to think about the consequences for the various quests, because of the noblise oblige factor he was brought up with and how all the quests affect Ferelden itself indirectly. Everyone else is just too insular: the mage was powerhungry, the elf was racially motivated, and Mog the Gnome is just bizaar.

[Nerevar-as]

Something in Bhelen reminds me of a poor man´s Lord Vetinari. I don´t know if I can call powerhungry someone who uses his power to make things better for those who need that help. And so far it seems he also has the skills to back up that ideal. Helping the castless actually erodes his power base, as nobles and warriors are the fighting force in Orzammar. He must have been really happy when he got the report about the dwarven thaig in Awakeing.



This ending reminds of that quest from Fallout 1. In the first city you could help the sheriff or the merchant. First idea that was later turned around by higher ups was that helping the sheriff resulted in the city going in fascist dictatorship, while the merchant made it peacful and prosper.

[Dean_the_Young]

The two really aren't comparable in terms of means, modes, methods, or motivations. Bhelen, for better and worse, really does seem to be in it for himself: it just so happens that what's good for him is better for Orzammar than what is not good for him.



I mean, if Bhelen were Vetinari, the Carta would become the thief-police force of the city.

[GardenSnake]

Harrowmont, ya sure, Bhelen seems to help dwarven society a lot and probably does. But he's a scumbag at the same time, I don't do scumbags.

[Obadiah]

I like Lord Helmi's quote after you lie to him about the bribe he took from Harrowmont, "There're all the same you know. Bunch of well dressed blood sucking cave ticks."

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The two really aren't comparable in terms of means, modes, methods, or motivations. Bhelen, for better and worse, really does seem to be in it for himself: it just so happens that what's good for him is better for Orzammar than what is not good for him.

I mean, if Bhelen were Vetinari, the Carta would become the thief-police force of the city.

And  Mimes would be banned.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The two really aren't comparable in terms of means, modes, methods, or motivations. Bhelen, for better and worse, really does seem to be in it for himself: it just so happens that what's good for him is better for Orzammar than what is not good for him.

I mean, if Bhelen were Vetinari, the Carta would become the thief-police force of the city.

And  Mimes would be banned.

I'd vote for him.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The two really aren't comparable in terms of means, modes, methods, or motivations. Bhelen, for better and worse, really does seem to be in it for himself: it just so happens that what's good for him is better for Orzammar than what is not good for him.

I mean, if Bhelen were Vetinari, the Carta would become the thief-police force of the city.

And  Mimes would be banned.

I'd vote for him.

I love reading Terry Pratchett's work.

Anything with Sir Samuel Vimes is boss.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 04 septembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[Nerevar-as]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The two really aren't comparable in terms of means, modes, methods, or motivations. Bhelen, for better and worse, really does seem to be in it for himself: it just so happens that what's good for him is better for Orzammar than what is not good for him.

I mean, if Bhelen were Vetinari, the Carta would become the thief-police force of the city.

As a matter of fact that was pretty much the situation before Carrot arrived...

Sir Samuel Vimes. Hope we´ll get another book with him as main character. If Hawke has 1/4 his badassery and charisma he´ll be the greatest BW character ever.

[Elhanan]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, sure, a lot of us make up our own endings.  But we don't SAY that is an ending and such.  But why would you, as a paragon, openly try to cause dissent in a government in a time of needed change?  Orzammar is finally becoming prosperous, they're FINALLY beginning to push the darkspawn back...  That sounds like a horrible thing to do, to try and undo all the good is being done.

What I think is funny is if you are a dwarf and you ask Alistair for aid in the war against the darkspawn.  Bhelen welcomes the help and they do even BETTER in the war.  Harrowmont refuses the help of troops, only accepting equipment and medicine.  He's afraid that the assembly would be mad with actual military aid.

Sounds like Harrowmont causes a LOT more death than Bhelen.

While playing as a Dwarven Commoner who was forced into a life of criminality, seeing his family used as a commodity, it became clear given my new status as a Warden and the opportunity of the deadlock in the Assembly to make such a change.

Bhelen? No better than my old boss. Harrowmont? A good man mired in a tradtion that hurt many like myself. It came down to eliminating the largest foes while I had the opportunity: traditional caste status, apathy, and historical revision in the Shaperate lest it all happen again. I chose to do as much to turn tables while I was able, and Bhelen would be easier to control than the entire Assembly. And gaining a new House with a large Casteless base would help better cement their place in a new Orzammar.

[Giggles_Manically]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The two really aren't comparable in terms of means, modes, methods, or motivations. Bhelen, for better and worse, really does seem to be in it for himself: it just so happens that what's good for him is better for Orzammar than what is not good for him.

I mean, if Bhelen were Vetinari, the Carta would become the thief-police force of the city.

As a matter of fact that was pretty much the situation before Carrot arrived...

Sir Samuel Vimes. Hope we´ll get another book with him as main character. If Hawke has 1/4 his badassery and charisma he´ll be the greatest BW character ever.

Unless Hawke can take on an entire pack of Werewolves in only a pair of old pants, with a woodaxe in the dead of winter, then I doubt he will be as cool.