114 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Estelindis wrote...

That said: is it wrong for me to hope that those who have chosen ME2 LIs after ME1 LIs will not have the option to choose to get back with the ME1 LI later?  I mean, if you choose person X instead of person Y, shouldn't that decision stand?

No...I think this is fair, and would make some ME1 LI fans happy.

One of my fears for LotSB is that those Shepards that did stray from Liara in ME2 will get the same chance as I to rekindle the relationship and will also get the same dialog with Liara as I.  'I' being a person who stayed faithful to Liara with all Shepards.

[jlb524]

mashavasilec wrote...

just why can't Liara save Shepard's body not out of crazy romantic crush, but out of friendship and because that's just the thing she'd do? my first ME2 PT was with Shep who didn't romance her and the thought of Liara doing it just because she still has some romantic feelings never even crossed my mind

why does everything have to do with romance? whyyyyy?

I've been wondering the same....if Liara wasn't romanceable in ME1, I wonder if people would feel the same way about this?  What if it was Wrex that saved Shepard's body instead of Liara?  Would Wrex have also done it out of some crazed romantic obsession?

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

That has nothing to do with romance though.  That has more to do with people unrealistically bashing Liara, calling her a nutjob, describing all the horrible ways they would like to kill her in ME3, etc.  I have no problem with those that took a new LI in ME2, but I do have problems with those that did and then try to justify it by saying Liara has flown off of her rocker and thus deserves it.  Or, people that just hate on Liara in ME2 generally regardless of romance.

I've seen no one harrass Ashley or Kaidan fans by saying they should go back and romance Liara instead of Ashley or Kaidan because she did so much for them.

Right, that's exactly what I'm saying - that the Liara guilt trip is used in more cases than just romance.

As for your second point, this argument seems to pivot on the whole "ME1 LI vs ME2 LI" thing. Kaidan and Ashley, by virtue of being ME1 LIs, are exempt from scrutiny and scorn.

[In Exile]

Estelindis wrote...

Similarly, I wished that when ME2 romance possibilities came up, my Shepard had the chance to say "sorry, I'm not free to pursue that" - particularly with characters like Garrus and Tali, who were part of the same crew with Ash, Kai, and Liara.  (I still can't understand the topic never coming up with them.)

Keep in mind that Shepard does not run into Ashley/Kaiden or Liara until some time after he's been alive and single. Shepard and the ME1 LI haven't been toghether all that long (Shepard dies a few weeks after Sovereign, yes?) and he's been alive a decent amount before Ilium/Horizon, so it might just be that Shepard moved on while the others kind of unhealthy pined for the dead hero.

[Nightwriter]

Estelindis wrote...

Yes, I see your point.  Ideally, one would be able to treat the relationships in a more mature fashion, but the games simply don't allow it.  And how you respond to that limitation is up to you, for your own enjoyment of the playing experience.

That said: is it wrong for me to hope that those who have chosen ME2 LIs after ME1 LIs will not have the option to choose to get back with the ME1 LI later?  I mean, if you choose person X instead of person Y, shouldn't that decision stand?

I would have no problem with that. I'm happy with the new LI. There's no chance I'm going back. Just as long as me and Liara get to part on good terms. I mean I like Liara, I don't want this to be a war.

[In Exile]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Hmmm, I also happen to believe that people insinuate this due to the fact that Liara is a woman, in addition to her status as a possible LI. Would people insult or debase Liara's character in that manner if she were male? I sincerely doubt it.

I'd think a guy going through all of that for the sake of another guy has feelings that are more powerful than just friendship.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Right, that's exactly what I'm saying - that the Liara guilt trip is used in more cases than just romance.

And, it should be in those cases

Nightwriter wrote...
As for your second point, this argument seems to pivot on the whole "ME1 LI vs ME2 LI" thing. Kaidan and Ashley, by virtue of being ME1 LIs, are exempt from scrutiny and scorn.

Who's scrutinizing and scorning ME2 LIs here? I thought this was about feeling forced or compelled to romance Liara instead of Ash/Kaidan/Miranda/Jacob/Tali/Thane/Garrus/Jack because she saved your corpse or something?

[Fiery Phoenix]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

mashavasilec wrote...

just why can't Liara save Shepard's body not out of crazy romantic crush, but out of friendship and because that's just the thing she'd do? my first ME2 PT was with Shep who didn't romance her and the thought of Liara doing it just because she still has some romantic feelings never even crossed my mind

why does everything have to do with romance? whyyyyy?

Hmmm, I also happen to believe that people insinuate this due to the fact that Liara is a woman, in addition to her status as a possible LI. Would people insult or debase Liara's character in that manner if she were male? I sincerely doubt it.

Mash pretty much got it right there. I even said the same in my very first post in here; Liara helps Shepard, not because she has a crush on them, but for the sake of helping them. It's called loyalty; friendship; camaraderie; whatever you want to call it. We do the same in real life.

The assumption that Liara did what she did in Redemption as a reflection of her supposedly unhealthy obsession with Shepard is nothing short of an illusion.

[jlb524]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Mash pretty much got it right there. I even said the same in my very first post in here; Liara helps Shepard, not because she has a crush on them, but for the sake of helping them. It's called loyalty; friendship; camaraderie; whatever you want to call it. We do the same in real life.

The assumption that Liara did what she did in Redemption as a reflection of her supposedly unhealthy obsession with Shepard is nothing short of an illusion.

Indeed X 100!

[Estelindis]

Completely agree with those who have said Liara helped Shepard out of loyalty and commitment.  That said, I do find some aspects of *everyone's* response to Shepard's death somewhat lacking.  Liara does seem like she buried herself in a somewhat unhealthy attempt to make up for mistakes made during the mission to recover Shepard, and is still clearly guilty about giving Shepard to Cerberus.  And I feel like Ashley and Kaidan should have been doing whatever they could to keep the sense of the Reaper threat alive.  I mean, the whole galaxy can't just depend on one person.  If Shepard really had been dead, beyond all recovery, as they'd thought, shouldn't they have stepped up to the task?  However, like all people, they are limited and have certain weaknesses and frailties.  I don't take the fact that they're not perfect Mary Sues against their characters.  (Those who criticise any given ME character for X, Y, or Z seem to forget that all good characters have flaws.)

Nightwriter wrote...
this argument seems to pivot on the whole "ME1 LI vs ME2 LI" thing. Kaidan and Ashley, by virtue of being ME1 LIs, are exempt from scrutiny and scorn.

I guess you missed the Ash / Kai DLC request thread, in which many people expressed scorn for the Alliance marines and said they wanted the chance to kill them for their "betrayal" on Horizon, then.  And that's just one thread of many.  Believe me, as a fan of the ME1 LIs, I do tend to see a fair bit of this.  What it comes down to is that people will always like and dislike different characters, and are entitled to their preferences.  I just wish everyone could respect each other's views and express themselves without being insulting.

In Exile wrote...
Keep in mind that Shepard does not run into
Ashley/Kaiden or Liara until some time after he's been alive and single.
Shepard and the ME1 LI haven't been toghether all that long (Shepard
dies a few weeks after Sovereign, yes?) and he's been alive a decent
amount before Ilium/Horizon, so it might just be that Shepard moved on
while the others kind of unhealthy pined for the dead hero.

You can read things that way if you like.  Personally, there's no way my Shepard is going to "move on" until she straightens things out with her previous flame.  It just doesn't seem honourable or right to me.  Plus, given that she just woke up, and didn't experience those two years, she's still in love.  The only question for her is finding out if there is still a place in Kaidan's life for her, or if *he* has moved on.  Or if it's even healthy to have a relationship with him after all he's been through.  But the emphasis is that she doesn't know and needs to find out.

Modifié par Estelindis, 31 août 2010 - 03:54 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

In Exile wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Hmmm, I also happen to believe that people insinuate this due to the fact that Liara is a woman, in addition to her status as a possible LI. Would people insult or debase Liara's character in that manner if she were male? I sincerely doubt it.

I'd think a guy going through all of that for the sake of another guy has feelings that are more powerful than just friendship.

It depends on your definition of friendship. Either way, what Liara did makes perfect sense to me, regardless of whether or not she has been romanced by Shepard.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Who's scrutinizing and scorning ME2 LIs here? I thought this was about feeling forced or compelled to romance Liara instead of Ash/Kaidan/Miranda/Jacob/Tali/Thane/Garrus/Jack because she saved your corpse or something?

Well it started about that, lol. As you can see it's evolved a bit since then. Now it's about guilt.

The ME2 LIs, since they come along in game 2, seem to represent infidelity, for no reason I understand. They're the usurpers. Ash, Kaidan and Liara are the victims who got sidelined and replaced by people with bigger boobs and pecs. The "stay true, stay blue" faithfuls are the disciples following the path of righteousness and loyalty. The rest are the unrighteous and the abandoners. Yes, I have been talking to Pups too long. No, the damage is not reversible.

When you ask why no one got guilted into romancing Liara over Kaidan/Ash, it's because those three choices were on equal ground then. They were all presented in the same game at the same time and you couldn't for instance cheat on Liara with Kaidan. Liara had made no grand gesture to save you yet. Basically, the choice was fair.

[In Exile]

Estelindis wrote...

You can read things that way if you like.  Personally, there's no way my Shepard is going to "move on" until she straightens things out with her previous flame.  It just doesn't seem honourable or right to me.  Plus, given that she just woke up, and didn't experience those two years, she's still in love.  The only question for her is finding out if there is still a place in Kaidan's life for her, or if *he* has moved on.  Or if it's even healthy to have a relationship with him after all he's been through.  But the emphasis is that she doesn't know and needs to find out.

Right, but that's just your take on your Shepard. My Shepard was never in love, since hanging out on the Normandy for a while, having a night of "teh hot secks" before the Ilos and then a few weeks toghether not so much dating but chasing the geth around the galaxy is not particularly enough time to be in love with someone. To have strong feelings for, sure.

My point is that the Shepard's mental state isn't neccesarily that there was a deep relationship there which he is fundamentally betraying on an unspeakable level by moving on from the LI he was with for a few weeks at best.

[In Exile]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Not necessarily, no. Deep respect and friendship, yes. But romantic affection is not necessarily the reason as to why.

Deep friendship is standing by someone at personal cost in their time of time. Deep friendship is not insane plan to kidnap course to revive the dead. Whether or not you want to classify those feelings as romantic (I think for them to be so intense, they have to be), they are certainly obsessive.

Alot of people also miss the fact that Liara, in Redemption, states that she blames herself for Shepard's death. Her motivations are not necessarily romantic.

Right, but that would suggest survivor's guilt, which just means that Liara is emotionally unstable by that point. Which isn't really romantic or friendly at all. I haven't read the comic, so I can't say anything specifically, but that description points toward obsession versus care.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well it started about that, lol. As you can see it's evolved a bit since then. Now it's about guilt.

The ME2 LIs, since they come along in game 2, seem to represent infidelity, for no reason I understand. They're the usurpers. Ash, Kaidan and Liara are the victims who got sidelined and replaced by people with bigger boobs and pecs. The "stay true, stay blue" faithfuls are the disciples following the path of righteousness and loyalty. The rest are the unrighteous and the abandoners. Yes, I have been talking to Pups too long. No, the damage is not reversible.

When you ask why no one got guilted into romancing Liara over Kaidan/Ash, it's because those three choices were on equal ground then. They were all presented in the same game at the same time and you couldn't for instance cheat on Liara with Kaidan. Liara had made no grand gesture to save you yet. Basically, the choice was fair.

You have been talking to Pups for too long

This wasn't even about the ME2 LIs, just Liara/Ash/Kaidan, and how some may feel compelled or forced to take Liara over those 2 due to Redemption and LotSB.   The original point made was that some do feel guilted to romancing Liara over Kaidan/Ash because she saved you or something (I think this is so untrue, though).  So, these people do exist, though their guilt seems self-imposed and not imposed by Liara fans.

[Lisa_H]

I have no problem with not romancing Liara. My Shep romanced Kaidan, and I have never pictured my Shep as a lesbian, so Liara never had a chance, and nothing Liara does can change that. People do not change sexual orientation just because someone does a lot of things for them. But I have always viewd Liara as a close friend of my Shepard, and Liara might hold romantic feelings for Shepard.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

You have been talking to Pups for too long

This wasn't even about the ME2 LIs, just Liara/Ash/Kaidan, and how some may feel compelled or forced to take Liara over those 2 due to Redemption and LotSB.   The original point made was that some do feel guilted to romancing Liara over Kaidan/Ash because she saved you or something (I think this is so untrue, though).  So, these people do exist, though their guilt seems self-imposed and not imposed by Liara fans.

Well, I don't understand that either then. At the time you romance Kaidan or Ashley Liara has done nothing that you should feel guilty about.

I realize the thread is about feeling forced, I guess I just feel like different people feel forced for different reasons.

At most all I can say is that Liara's romance ties in to the main story the most, if you so choose to pursue it.

[jlb524]

I think the feeling is that in retrospect, you should romance Liara in ME1 instead, given what she did for you. Meta-gaming. Not many people hold these feelings, but the idea does crop up from time to time. More people are in the, 'how could you cheat on Liara after what she did' boat.



I think the romance is absolutely terrific, beautiful while at times tragic, and I love how it ties into the main story, but I realize it's not for everyone for various reasons.

[Killjoy Cutter]

In Exile wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Hmmm, I also happen to believe that people insinuate this due to the fact that Liara is a woman, in addition to her status as a possible LI. Would people insult or debase Liara's character in that manner if she were male? I sincerely doubt it.

I'd think a guy going through all of that for the sake of another guy has feelings that are more powerful than just friendship.

And most of the time you'd be wrong.