147 réponses à ce sujet

[Shotokanguy]

Making Shepard have some sort of issue that he needs to overcome just for the sake of making you think he's being developed isn't the right way to do it.



You can choose to develop him yourself, if you want. For example, after Kaidan's death, my Shepard feels guilty because he let his feelings for Ashley get a friend killed. Then I break it off with Ashley during the Normandy lockdown. After that lesson, he'll be less inclined to get involved with anyone, which is why I'm going to turn down Miranda before the end of ME2.



There's only so much they can do to develop a character in this situation. At the same time, Shepard is a pretty strong person already and doesn't NEED development. I never really notice that he needs to change.

[dreman9999]

Shotokanguy wrote...

Making Shepard have some sort of issue that he needs to overcome just for the sake of making you think he's being developed isn't the right way to do it.

You can choose to develop him yourself, if you want. For example, after Kaidan's death, my Shepard feels guilty because he let his feelings for Ashley get a friend killed. Then I break it off with Ashley during the Normandy lockdown. After that lesson, he'll be less inclined to get involved with anyone, which is why I'm going to turn down Miranda before the end of ME2.

There's only so much they can do to develop a character in this situation. At the same time, Shepard is a pretty strong person already and doesn't NEED development. I never really notice that he needs to change.

Exactly, I have 6 different Shepard with 6 different personalities and development. You have make your own development in wrpg.

[SithLordExarKun]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Warden only had depth in that his origin was far more varied.

He didn't "develop" at all because he's even more of an empty vessel for the player because he doesn't even speak, and you're picking his exact words.  His personality was a direct reflection of your will.

Which is why i essentially think shepard is a less developed character than the warden....

That doesn't really make any sense.

Shepard has elements of his character that are out of your control.  They're essentially his.  They are his character, not yours.

Although he's 90% a reflection of your will as opposed to nearly 100% with the Warden.

If Shepard has elements of his character that are out  of our control, how exactly does this allow us to "develop" him/her  out way as we do the Warden?

[SithLordExarKun]

Shotokanguy wrote...


There's only so much they can do to develop a character in this situation. At the same time, Shepard is a pretty strong person already and doesn't NEED development. I never really notice that he needs to change.

That is a very weak argument, no offence. Nobody's asking Shepard to change, remember the the part where i did mentioned that he/she is helping everyone solve their issues? But what about his/hers?

Heck, Ripley was an incredibly strong character in the alien trilogy, and her character constantly changed within each film, that just shows character growth and in the ME games, you get to choose how shepard reacts to other people and what he/she says... that isn't really giving Shepard a personality nor does it develop his/her character in my opinion...

[PyramidHead15]

I dont see Shepard as a character but as a representation of what I want him to be. He can be charismatic, sarcastic, mean, rude, selfless, or good.

[MajesticJazz]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ok, i am sure many players should have noticed this... but i think Shepard is a shallow character in both games with very little character development.

One example is in ME2, he/she goes around solving squadmates issues... but what about his/her issues?? I don't know how to explain this further.

Nice thread!

This goes back to a recent thread of mine in which talks about how Bioware got the whole Trilogy concept wrong. One thing I brought up was Shepard's character development as at the in of ME2, he is essentially the same dude/gal that was present before the Eden Prime mission in ME1. There is no stages of growth that Shepard goes through, especially when you compare his development to that of say....Luke Skywalker in in the Original trilogy. Luke Skywalker in Empire Strikes Back is different from the A New Hope Luke Skywalker and the Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi is different from the Empire Strikes Back Luke Skywalker. Again, Shepard in Mass Effect does not have this type of development. Ashley/Kaiden/Tali/Garrus/Anderson/Joker may all have this, but not Shepard.

[Cypher0020]

I base Shepard off myself....mostly paragon with a sprinkle of renegade, hated herself because of Virmire, began a romance with Kaidan.... made sure to everyone got out alive in ME2..



I dunno... I see Shep developing a lot between ME1 and ME2... plus, I love that we as players can make up Shep's thoughts...



did his/her early death in ME2 bug you out or not at all? your call



did he/she have nightmares about Akuze? your call







I enjoy the ME series too much to nitpick... I'm ADD.. so my mind is in a million places at once anyways LOL

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

There's you problem.....Your thinking of Shepard, your Shepard, as a 3rd person character that you have no control of. That you are viewing their actions and choices and not the one doing all the choices personally. The thing is that this is a role playing game ...that you play a role. You decide the growth, what the character hates, likes and any other discussion the character makes....like acting. If you find that Shepard has no development, that means your Shepard did not develop, that you did not develop the character at all.

If your Shepard had no development that's your problem.

The problem is, we may have ideas of how Shepard may grow and change, but we as players do not get the chance to express them. 

For example: Shepard died,: Does that mean Shep starts to wax philosophical with Thane?  Talk with Mordin about the nature of life and death?  Go out and get drunk with Jacob?  Or alone?  Chat about old times with Garrus or Tali?  Write to Kaiden/Ashley, Liara, Anderson?  In my mind, maybe he is doing some of these things.  But I don't get to move Shepard around to do any of that.  No dialogue options allow this.

Shotokanguy wrote...

Making Shepard have some sort of issue that he needs to overcome just for the sake of making you think he's being developed isn't the right way to do it.

Shep already has a bunch of issues.  We don't need to make any more.  In ME 2 alone, we have:

Death   Not to mention losing two years where friends and loved ones have moved on
Forced to work for Cerberus, a known terrorist organization
Spurned by LI (if applicable)
Spurned by Council
Warnings of Reapers ignored/buried.  The galaxy is still woefully unprepared
Being hunted by the Collectors, as well as anyone close to you (bonus points for being dangled like bait by TIM)

This leaves aside Earth gangs/Mindoir childhood, Skyllian Blitz/Torfan/Akuze, plus ME 1 in its entirety.

Working for Cerberus, being spurned by LI, spurned by Council, dubbed a traitor by VIrmire Survivor after saving Horision, Shepard on the screen blandly accepts everything that happens.  No reactions, no real reflection, no strong reactions at all. I know how my Shepard may react to certain elements in the story.  Problem is I can't do them.  There aren't even close approximations.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I agree w/ above they set up situations that would require the player to express their feelings trouble is you can't. For instance w/ Liara if you love her you meet her kiss then she all but runs away from you sits down and starts asking you about side quest if dialogue allowed I would've been like " WTF! I've traveled the galaxy thinking nothing but of you and now I find you and you won't even acknowledge us!? "

but you can't instead you sit down and chat it up w/ her like you're ok. She on the other hand is very emotional or trying poorly to hide it when you press her she is very upset she looks like she wants to cry and you keep chatting away they missed some serious development time for Shepard here.
 
If as the player you where hurt by her rejection you should've been able to say so its only later when she tells you what she's done do you marginally get to say, " Yeah I regret what you did too." for ren or you can say, " Oh its Ok Liara if it wasn't for you I'd still be dead!" for para which is a suck line anyway for para who chooses that?
 
Anyway in curtain situations they just need more dialogue and emotion to allow the players to reflect how they feel w/in game not only in their heads.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 01 septembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[SithLordExarKun]

MajesticJazz wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ok, i am sure many players should have noticed this... but i think Shepard is a shallow character in both games with very little character development.

One example is in ME2, he/she goes around solving squadmates issues... but what about his/her issues?? I don't know how to explain this further.

Nice thread!

This goes back to a recent thread of mine in which talks about how Bioware got the whole Trilogy concept wrong. One thing I brought up was Shepard's character development as at the in of ME2, he is essentially the same dude/gal that was present before the Eden Prime mission in ME1. There is no stages of growth that Shepard goes through, especially when you compare his development to that of say....Luke Skywalker in in the Original trilogy. Luke Skywalker in Empire Strikes Back is different from the A New Hope Luke Skywalker and the Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi is different from the Empire Strikes Back Luke Skywalker. Again, Shepard in Mass Effect does not have this type of development. Ashley/Kaiden/Tali/Garrus/Anderson/Joker may all have this, but not Shepard.

Yes this^.

The same can be said for Ripley in the Alien trilogy. Ripley in Aliens was different from Alien and was a badass while Ripley in Alien 3 was extremely vulnerable. Or like how theres a growth in character for good ol Sarah Connor in terminator 2 due to her trauma in terminator.

As much as i really like Shepard(especially female ), there is essentially zero development in terms of character.
-Get killed and then subsequently working for an extremist group? Np!
-LI tells you to get lost because you work with Cerberus? Np!
-TIM being very rude and bossing you around? Np!
-Liara being a total dick despite being very nice to you in ME1? Np!
-If you save the council and they be an **** to you, Np!

Different people would react differently and in some way get influenced by such incidents, but Shepard is totally a-ok with this and it doesn't bother him/her.

The only, and i mean the only scene where Shepard appears vulnerable is that scene in ME1, the one where Udina locks down the normandy and you lean against the locker. I for one would like to see Shepard get emotional or go through a break through...

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[kalle90]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ok, i am sure many players should have noticed this... but i think Shepard is a shallow character in both games with very little character development.

One example is in ME2, he/she goes around solving squadmates issues... but what about his/her issues?? I don't know how to explain this further.

Nice thread!

This goes back to a recent thread of mine in which talks about how Bioware got the whole Trilogy concept wrong. One thing I brought up was Shepard's character development as at the in of ME2, he is essentially the same dude/gal that was present before the Eden Prime mission in ME1. There is no stages of growth that Shepard goes through, especially when you compare his development to that of say....Luke Skywalker in in the Original trilogy. Luke Skywalker in Empire Strikes Back is different from the A New Hope Luke Skywalker and the Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi is different from the Empire Strikes Back Luke Skywalker. Again, Shepard in Mass Effect does not have this type of development. Ashley/Kaiden/Tali/Garrus/Anderson/Joker may all have this, but not Shepard.

Yes this^.

The same can be said for Ripley in the Alien trilogy. Ripley in Aliens was different from Alien and was a badass while Ripley in Alien 3 was extremely vulnerable. Or like how theres a growth in character for good ol Sarah Connor in terminator 2 due to her trauma in terminator.

As much as i really like Shepard(especially female ), there is essentially zero development in terms of character.
-Get killed and then subsequently working for an extremist group? Np!
-LI tells you to get lost because you work with Cerberus? Np!
-TIM being very rude and bossing you around? Np!
-Liara being a total dick despite being very nice to you in ME1? Np!
-If you save the council and they be an **** to you, Np!

Different people would react differently and in some way get influenced by such incidents, but Shepard is totally a-ok with this and it doesn't bother him/her.

The only, and i mean the only scene where Shepard appears vulnerable is that scene in ME1, the one where Udina locks down the normandy and you lean against the locker. I for one would like to see Shepard get emotional or go through a break through...

But you're talking about very scripted movies. ME has to allows tons of options so we all can play the way we want, make Shepard what we want. Forcing out Shepard to break down would be bad for plenty of players

It would be ok if we got more extreme dialogue choices, if there were some sort of tertiary missions (something that won't be listed as "not completed") and activities like getting drunk writing to Liara like someone mentioned, but they definitely shouldn't be forced.

My Shepard gets all the development I need when I let a murdered go and later notice it thinking "Am I too nice?" or "Could I have done something to save Miranda and Mordin?"

[SithLordExarKun]

kalle90 wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ok, i am sure many players should have noticed this... but i think Shepard is a shallow character in both games with very little character development.

One example is in ME2, he/she goes around solving squadmates issues... but what about his/her issues?? I don't know how to explain this further.

Nice thread!

This goes back to a recent thread of mine in which talks about how Bioware got the whole Trilogy concept wrong. One thing I brought up was Shepard's character development as at the in of ME2, he is essentially the same dude/gal that was present before the Eden Prime mission in ME1. There is no stages of growth that Shepard goes through, especially when you compare his development to that of say....Luke Skywalker in in the Original trilogy. Luke Skywalker in Empire Strikes Back is different from the A New Hope Luke Skywalker and the Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi is different from the Empire Strikes Back Luke Skywalker. Again, Shepard in Mass Effect does not have this type of development. Ashley/Kaiden/Tali/Garrus/Anderson/Joker may all have this, but not Shepard.

Yes this^.

The same can be said for Ripley in the Alien trilogy. Ripley in Aliens was different from Alien and was a badass while Ripley in Alien 3 was extremely vulnerable. Or like how theres a growth in character for good ol Sarah Connor in terminator 2 due to her trauma in terminator.

As much as i really like Shepard(especially female ), there is essentially zero development in terms of character.
-Get killed and then subsequently working for an extremist group? Np!
-LI tells you to get lost because you work with Cerberus? Np!
-TIM being very rude and bossing you around? Np!
-Liara being a total dick despite being very nice to you in ME1? Np!
-If you save the council and they be an **** to you, Np!

Different people would react differently and in some way get influenced by such incidents, but Shepard is totally a-ok with this and it doesn't bother him/her.

The only, and i mean the only scene where Shepard appears vulnerable is that scene in ME1, the one where Udina locks down the normandy and you lean against the locker. I for one would like to see Shepard get emotional or go through a break through...

But you're talking about very scripted movies. ME has to allows tons of options so we all can play the way we want, make Shepard what we want. Forcing out Shepard to break down would be bad for plenty of players

It would be ok if we got more extreme dialogue choices, if there were some sort of tertiary missions (something that won't be listed as "not completed") and activities like getting drunk writing to Liara like someone mentioned, but they definitely shouldn't be forced.

My Shepard gets all the development I need when I let a murdered go and later notice it thinking "Am I too nice?" or "Could I have done something to save Miranda and Mordin?"

For the nth time i repeat : I am not asking them to force shepards personality, just give us more options or at the least take the development a little further while giving us the choice in the process. Look at Garrus and Tali, they developed from ME1 while Shepard is still at square one and has not progressed at all.

[jojoshjo]

Actually one of my playthroughs in ME1 I went on a mission that dealt with my time as a gangmember in my youth.

[Never]

I think it would be awesome if more of the other characters asked about Shep. It was nice that you could kinda sorta talk about Horizon with Kelly and Joker. I'd love that kind of thing more often.

[jojon2se]

That's kind of Shepard's job - being a solid, reliable, unchanging bastion, that his/her subordinates can lean on, whenever they waver, directly or just as an inspirational reference. The good doctor states as much in the game.

What lies beneath the stone face is implied through the dialogue delivery that you choose; what angers, amuses, etc Shepard, tells of the person that you (in part) shape, without shoving it in your face. Sometimes an unengaged delivery is a sign of tact, rather than just a bad reading.

[dreman9999]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Warden only had depth in that his origin was far more varied.

He didn't "develop" at all because he's even more of an empty vessel for the player because he doesn't even speak, and you're picking his exact words.  His personality was a direct reflection of your will.

Which is why i essentially think shepard is a less developed character than the warden....

That doesn't really make any sense.

Shepard has elements of his character that are out of your control.  They're essentially his.  They are his character, not yours.

Although he's 90% a reflection of your will as opposed to nearly 100% with the Warden.

If Shepard has elements of his character that are out  of our control, how exactly does this allow us to "develop" him/her  out way as we do the Warden?

So in DAO.......when your forced into the Gray wardens.......that's not character growth?

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

There's you problem.....Your thinking of Shepard, your Shepard, as a 3rd person character that you have no control of. That you are viewing their actions and choices and not the one doing all the choices personally. The thing is that this is a role playing game ...that you play a role. You decide the growth, what the character hates, likes and any other discussion the character makes....like acting. If you find that Shepard has no development, that means your Shepard did not develop, that you did not develop the character at all.

If your Shepard had no development that's your problem.

The problem is, we may have ideas of how Shepard may grow and change, but we as players do not get the chance to express them. 

For example: Shepard died,: Does that mean Shep starts to wax philosophical with Thane?  Talk with Mordin about the nature of life and death?  Go out and get drunk with Jacob?  Or alone?  Chat about old times with Garrus or Tali?  Write to Kaiden/Ashley, Liara, Anderson?  In my mind, maybe he is doing some of these things.  But I don't get to move Shepard around to do any of that.  No dialogue options allow this.

.....Out side of Writing to Ashley/ Kaiden, you have all those options. It's up to you. I'm even play a Shepard who was upset that she was revived.

[Whatever42]

dreman9999 wrote...

So in DAO.......when your forced into the Gray wardens.......that's not character growth?

Character growth occurs when a character changes, not merely when something happens to them. When Ashley starts ME1 by bashing aliens but can end it by calling on you to save the council, that is character growth.

You can easily roleplay character growth. You can start by being a renegade badass, not caring about anyone but evolving into caring. Or you can start as a goody toeshoes who become traumatized by his/her experiences and becomes more callous and desperate. That would be character growth.

But I'm not sure how Bioware could force character growth upon Shepard in any meaningful way.

But I think people mean why doesn't Shepard have any personal issues from his/her past, whether there is growth or not. Why doesn't Shepard get a mission where he gets to work out his angst about Batarian slavers, for example. That would be nice but its not really ME:Origins, despite getting to pick your background. Its never been a big or advertised part of the game. Personally, I think they should do their next series like DA2, just have one background but really make it part of the game. It would allow you an opportunity to roleplay character development in a more personal way.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 01 septembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[dreman9999]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So in DAO.......when your forced into the Gray wardens.......that's not character growth?

Character growth occurs when a character changes, not merely when something happens to them. When Ashley starts ME1 by bashing aliens but can end it by calling on you to save the council, that is character growth.

You can easily roleplay character growth. You can start by being a renegade badass, not caring about anyone but evolving into caring. Or you can start as a goody toeshoes who become traumatized by his/her experiences and becomes more callous and desperate. That would be character growth.

But I'm not sure how Bioware could force character growth upon Shepard in any meaningful way.

But I think people mean why doesn't Shepard have any personal issues from his/her past, whether there is growth or not. Why doesn't Shepard get a mission where he gets to work out his angst about Batarian slavers, for example. That would be nice but its not really ME:Origins, despite getting to pick your background. Its never been a big or advertised part of the game. Personally, I think they should do their next series like DA2, just have one background but really make it part of the game. It would allow you an opportunity to roleplay character development in a more personal way.

That's my point. That's exactly what character growth is. But a character can beforced to develop like if it's to sevive or because of a change in a story. Like a love one betraying you or a weather desaster.

[Whatever42]

dreman9999 wrote...
That's my point. That's exactly what character growth is. But a character can beforced to develop like if it's to sevive or because of a change in a story. Like a love one betraying you or a weather desaster.

ME does have moments on which you can hinge character growth in your roleplay: leaving behind someone to die, developing a love interest, dying, viewing horrible evil. However, you can also skip by these moments with no change to your roleplay. Start a merciless renegade, end a merciless renegade.

But you don't have to. Lets say you started out ambivilent about aliens. You chided Ashely in her views. But then, because of Saren and the inaction of that pathetic council, you had to leave her to die on Virmire. Well, then screw aliens and screw the council. Humanity can't rely on them. Let the council die. That's character development.

Or you could just ignore the opportunity for development and skip right along. But should/could Bioware force a change in your roleplay - force you to develop the character? Suddenly remove or noticeably change roleplay options for you? Not likely without a lot of screaming.

I guess they could try to create more possible arcs. My colonists leaves the dying Batarian to his fate but then later on I meet a happy, huggable Batarian that makes me change my views, and then give me a similar choice at the end of the game. Personally, though, my colonist would likely send my friendly Batarian into the service tunnels to die and then make the same choice at the end of the game.

[dreman9999]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That's my point. That's exactly what character growth is. But a character can beforced to develop like if it's to sevive or because of a change in a story. Like a love one betraying you or a weather desaster.

ME does have moments on which you can hinge character growth in your roleplay: leaving behind someone to die, developing a love interest, dying, viewing horrible evil. However, you can also skip by these moments with no change to your roleplay. Start a merciless renegade, end a merciless renegade.

But you don't have to. Lets say you started out ambivilent about aliens. You chided Ashely in her views. But then, because of Saren and the inaction of that pathetic council, you had to leave her to die on Virmire. Well, then screw aliens and screw the council. Humanity can't rely on them. Let the council die. That's character development.

Or you could just ignore the opportunity for development and skip right along. But should/could Bioware force a change in your roleplay - force you to develop the character? Suddenly remove or noticeably change roleplay options for you? Not likely without a lot of screaming.

I guess they could try to create more possible arcs. My colonists leaves the dying Batarian to his fate but then later on I meet a happy, huggable Batarian that makes me change my views, and then give me a similar choice at the end of the game. Personally, though, my colonist would likely send my friendly Batarian into the service tunnels to die and then make the same choice at the end of the game.

...Did you not get that were on the same page?

[Whatever42]

dreman9999 wrote...

...Did you not get that were on the same page?

I like to argue too much to actually read what anyone else wrote.

Sorry, I obviously misread your reply.  

[Cadaver19]

iakus wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Thing is every squaddie had their issues in the second game and time was needed to solve their issues, but what about Shepard? What about his/her personal problems, concerns etc etc?

I think part of it is the focus of the two games.  In ME 1 the focus of the game was on 'the mission" ie stop Saren.  You can get away with less charactarization simply because most players wouldn't be looking to closely for it.  ME 1 had a few moments of it, but not  a whole lot. 

In ME 2 the focus is "the characters" Every  squaddie gets a personal mission where they can show they have depth and stuff.  It's isolated from the rest of the game, but it's there.  Except for Shepard, who does everyone else's personal missions but has no "Shep mission"

And I agree, by ME 2 Shepard has been through enough traumas to keep a battalion of psychiatrists busy for an entire career.  I mean, he died at the start of the game, then things got really bad.  It might have been nice if there could have been a mission where Shep was sidelined and the rest of the squad had to do something to help Shep out

This:  I mean, he died at the start of the game, then things got really bad. You are my new favorite person.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Yeah dieing you think would do wonders for your physic but they put you right to work the player has to play along with it they can't express how traumatizing it is the closest thing we get is Garrus coming back and saying he's worried but you can't say, " I've been through hell!" you can say, " I'm glade you're here" but you can't say anymore beyond that line it was a good lead in but the road dropped off on that one.



Maybe you could cause break downs by how many times you select a lower left wheel option like say they give you 6 questions spread through out the game and if you answer using the left side of the wheel during these conversations low left for a more upset but not ren option and up left for a going though the motions type of response then at some point during the game shepard will either break down or have a melt down depending on how many times you choose the combos lets say to get a general break down scene you needed to pick top left option either 6/6 times or 4/6 times but to get meltdown movie you needed to pick low left 6/6 or 4/6 times.



So people who do not want a feeling Shepard would not chose that side of the wheel they can go through those 6 questions with the regular right wheel para, neutral, ren responses and no movie will play for them.