147 réponses à ce sujet

[Pocketgb]

PWENER wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

PWENER wrote...
I believe I have complete control over my Shepard. I guess everyone experiences it differently.

Have you chosen the 'douchebag' response (i.e. bottom right) when talking to Sha'ira?

lol'd

Yeah no, it's hilarious: You choose the option normally regarded as 'negative' and you get sex out of it, no one saw it coming.

That's the point, though. You're given very little of what Shepard's intentions are with any given option, thus you're not accurately able to determine the consequences of your choices.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 02 septembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[bzurn]

That would have been very cool to see happen Sable, sadly it was a missed opportunity. The only touching moment with Shepard in ME2 is when I play the suicide mission and I let everyone die. ME1 did this at least twice with the background missions and the lockdown and virmire missions.

[Iakus]

ReconTeam wrote...

I disagree with that, without any voice or emotion, the Warden always seemed very distant to me.

Without the voice or emotion in the Grey Warden, you are more free to inject your own intentions in your lines.  With a fully voiced Shepard, what you see is what you get.  Or hear in this case.

I also agree that more dialogue options helped too, gives you more reasons why you choose to say something besides "It's the good/bad/indifferent thing to say"

[Iakus]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I think what people are really asking for when they say "character development" here is seeing some of Shepard's vulnerability.  Shepard's a single human with unimaginable pressures and traumas. Carrying the weight of all organic life in the galaxy on your shoulders and dying and being resurrected alone would be enough to break most people, to say nothing of a potentially traumatic early life, and Shepard typically sails along without seeming to really be aware of these things, much less affected by them.  Frankly, most of the time Shepard seems as cold and implacable as the Reapers themselves, more a force than a person.  Granted that is part of the character that is a necessary projection of such pressures, but the chinks in the armor just don't show themselves, and nobody can maintain that kind of mental armor indefinitely.  This is what made the Normandy lockdown scene in the first Mass Effect, where even Shepard's own locker is inaccessible and the player gets to see humanity's champion slump against it in defeat (if only temporary), so memorable.  Even better is that another squad member will acknowledge this and, for once, take up the cheerleader-******-sensei role that Shepard usually plays.

Not entirely vulnerability, or rather, not just that.  But an acknowledgement that past events took place, and left an impression.  Granted violent death and unexpected ressurection is a likely candidate for "humbling experience"

To use Aliens as an example, since I think it was brought up on a previous page, we see that the events of the first movie had a marked effect on Ripley.  She suffered from violent nightmares.  She had a deep distrust of androids.  She had a strong feeling of maternal protectiveness for Newt. 

In Shepard, we see no reactions of fondness or fear of past events, save one drinking binge shared with Chakwas (and she shows way more emotion than Shepard)  We see neither certainty nor doubt over past choices.  No reflection over past events, be it the fate of the Council, the Rachni queen, or VIrmire.  Sure we get to see what Shepard does.  But there's never an indication (outside our own minds of what should be) as to why Shepard does it.

If Bioware wants to know how to shape a character-centric story, just remember:
 
"What can change the nature of a man?"

Modifié par iakus, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:24 .

[Pacifien]

I think one incident that demonstrated Shepard had personality was the locker scene in ME1. Frustration with the locker, slumping down on the ground, allowing another person to discuss the mess you guys are in (or telling them to go away if you're not the sort to get into it). That sort of stuff allows for some dimension to the character.

[dreman9999]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Shepard is NOT third party character. If you treat him/her like one then their is no development. Stop treating your Shepards as one and you'll have no problem.

I've treated characters like Old snake, Nathan Drake, Niko Bellic, Ethan Mars as third party(well DUH they are!) yet i still find incredible character development within them. Do you get my point? Just because a character is third party, doesn't mean it eliminates the option for character development, trying to fool yourself .. is pretty much futile.

Shepard has essentially ZERO development, example : I can be a paragon in ME1, yet if i still progressed as a paragon in ME2, theres still zero development. Why would shepard logically be a nice noble person despite the brutalities he/she faced at the beginning of ME2? Why would he/she be nice to the council whom shoved the reapers existance at his/her face? So i picked the renegade route and things play out differently, but the character development is still lacking.

Nobody cared about his/her issues(except jacob asking ONE time if you,re female), nobody asked if he/she was doing fine and practically nobody gave a **** about the commander yet he/she is completely fine with being a lapdog for cerberus , boy toy for TIM, previous LI telling him/her to get lost and liara being a dick.

......Wow, I can't believe how easily my point was lost on you. I never said that a third person character does not have any character growth. We use third character development in stories all the time. It just that with wrpg(ROLEPLAYING games) demand that you play a role and the way to do it is in a first person perspective ideal, aka YOUR COMMANDER SHEPARD!!!!!
If you play your character in a wrpg as a third person character you will not have any growth in character development. That's why your not feeling any growth with your Shepard.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 septembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[HTTP 404]

Pacifien wrote...

I think one incident that demonstrated Shepard had personality was the locker scene in ME1. Frustration with the locker, slumping down on the ground, allowing another person to discuss the mess you guys are in (or telling them to go away if you're not the sort to get into it). That sort of stuff allows for some dimension to the character.

they just need more focus on personal struggle of Shepard in 3 versus the personal struggle of squadmates in 2..made the character of Shepard take a back seat to his team's story in 2.  My guess is that this might have been done on purpose to decrease variables to port over to Mass Effect 3.  its just a guess

[Sable Phoenix]

Pacifien wrote...

I think one incident that demonstrated Shepard had personality was the locker scene in ME1. Frustration with the locker, slumping down on the ground, allowing another person to discuss the mess you guys are in (or telling them to go away if you're not the sort to get into it). That sort of stuff allows for some dimension to the character.

That was one of the best scenes in all of Mass Effect, as I said earlier.  I wish Mass Effect 2 had had one like it... also as I described earlier.

This is one of the reasons that so many fanfic writers write said "fluff".  Apparently developers think that "fluff" doesn't belong in games because it distracts from gameplay, or plot, or something.  But every good story has fluff; it's how we get to know and come to care about the characters which populate it.  Otherwise, it's just bad stuff happening to someone else far away.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 05 septembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[InvisiShepard]

Nightwriter wrote...

My problem is that however you define your Shepard, the game world and characters don't really respond, you're just Shepard the Hero. I wish they'd defined more of Shepard's past. His time in Alliance training, for instance. I would've loved a recurring Christopher Lloyd type mentor/crazy scientist character who Shepard used to study under. Shepard's 29, a full-fledged Spectre, commands an entire vessel, and he still calls the guy Professor like he's 17 and in a classroom. The professor never approved of Shepard going all military instead of pursuing science, comically complains about the woe of the decision and often asks if Shepard is happy being a muscle-necked jarhead and if his abs have gained sentience yet. Little characterizations like that make a person. It's late. I ramble. 

OMG! That could have been awesome. A mentor type character who's the tough and angry type if your Paragon and total friendly Doc Brown type if you are Renegade. He could have been the catalyst for Shepard joining Cerberus after the Alliance/Council blows him off. Remember that scene from Dark Knight between Bruce & Alfred? 

Shepard: Nobody will listen to me. They think I'm crazy. You know as well that the Reapers are real and that hundreds of people in the Colonies are dying because of the Collectors. What should I do? 

Professor: When everyone turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to a voice of reason, it's time to make deal with the devil himself

How epic would that have been? Even an Sole Survivor would grudgingly join Cerberus but alas.
 

Modifié par InvisiShepard, 05 septembre 2010 - 10:42 .

[catabuca]

There was a difference between how it was handled in ME1 and ME2. In 1 you chose Shep's background, personal and military. There were personal missions in the game related to the background you chose. There were moments, like at the lockers when grounded on the Citadel, where you got a real sense of Shep's frustration, and his/her personal involvement in the story.

In 2 those choices of background carry over, but apart from the barest of mentions (like galactic news saying where the Shep memorial is being unveiled, and the like) it doesn't seem to make a difference. In addition, apart from the scene before the suicide mission, where you either play out a current romance or remember your ME1 LI, there is no sense of Shep's emotions, of his/her investment in the story.

Of course you make Shep your own (as far as the writing allows) through dialogue choices and mission decisions, but the difference is that ME2 isn't allowing for background-specific missions, and there are a lack of cut scenes that feature Shep displaying the human emotions we'd come to understand of him/her.

Obviously character development relies on the player and their own role-playing, but as we know Shep isn't a typical role-playing character. His/her character is imagined as a third person character in a cinematic rpg, whereby you take control of that external character. Shep isn't you. The devs have said this themselves. I believe that in a game format such as this there should be input from both sides. The player has the opportunity to develop and grow Shep in certain ways, but the writing, the game itself, should also help show that development in some way.

[Talexe]

I agree to an extent. Yes, he's a vessel for your personality and decisions, but what if I want to reflect on the things that have happened to me or confide in a close friend?



If I was Shepard, which is the idea, I wouldn't just be going about my business all the time no matter how badass I am. I'd be struggling to balance my stress and grave concerns with the need to be a strong leader and soldier.

[Solaris Paradox]

I got the sense that all of the background-specific things for my particular Shepard (Earthborn/War Hero) were completely resolved in Mass Effect 1 anyway, with the encounter with Haliat closing the book on the Blitz and the encounter with Finch closing the book on Shepard's involvement with the gangs. I was more than happy enough just focusing on Shepard's current situation. A little more facial expression at certain points in the game would have been cool, though.

[BlackFox26]

Hmm.. lets count how many squadmates... 1..2....3....... 18 ... ya make it 18 .. multiply by how many missions..... add some unique variables...... alright i got it.



196 times during mass effect 3 squadmates would say "how are you doing ...after *fill in event*" now do we really want that?

[MajesticJazz]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ok, i am sure many players should have noticed this... but i think Shepard is a shallow character in both games with very little character development.

One example is in ME2, he/she goes around solving squadmates issues... but what about his/her issues?? I don't know how to explain this further.

Nice thread!

This goes back to a recent thread of mine in which talks about how Bioware got the whole Trilogy concept wrong. One thing I brought up was Shepard's character development as at the in of ME2, he is essentially the same dude/gal that was present before the Eden Prime mission in ME1. There is no stages of growth that Shepard goes through, especially when you compare his development to that of say....Luke Skywalker in in the Original trilogy. Luke Skywalker in Empire Strikes Back is different from the A New Hope Luke Skywalker and the Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi is different from the Empire Strikes Back Luke Skywalker. Again, Shepard in Mass Effect does not have this type of development. Ashley/Kaiden/Tali/Garrus/Anderson/Joker may all have this, but not Shepard.

The only, and i mean the only scene where Shepard appears vulnerable is that scene in ME1, the one where Udina locks down the normandy and you lean against the locker. I for one would like to see Shepard get emotional or go through a break through...

Come to think of it, apart from the occasional smile, Shepard never really shows any facial emotions. He/She is always stone faced.

[Newnation]

Not really, when Grunt made a comment about not liking turians and my Shephard told him not to start anything with Garrus, his face looked like he was getting ready to beat the crap out of him if he even thought about it. Overlord was another example.

The only characters I know that actually check on Shephard are Kelly Chambers and Dr. Chakwas. From my character's point of view, the galaxy is being threatened and he is the only person that can do something about it. As much as he would love to be with Liara and focus on his issues he still has a job to do. To him the job is bigger than him and his problems. Its like when some guy pointed out that Jesse Ventura was bleeding in "Predator." He responds by saying he didn't have time to bleed. Personally I thought it would have been nice to see him deal with trauma from learning he'd been killed while on the mission but I like the game as is.

[Sable Phoenix]

Newnation wrote...

Not really, when Grunt made a comment about not liking turians and my Shephard told him not to start anything with Garrus, his face looked like he was getting ready to beat the crap out of him if he even thought about it. Overlord was another example.

The only characters I know that actually check on Shephard are Kelly Chambers and Dr. Chakwas. From my character's point of view, the galaxy is being threatened and he is the only person that can do something about it. As much as he would love to be with Liara and focus on his issues he still has a job to do. To him the job is bigger than him and his problems. Its like when some guy pointed out that Jesse Ventura was bleeding in "Predator." He responds by saying he didn't have time to bleed. Personally I thought it would have been nice to see him deal with trauma from learning he'd been killed while on the mission but I like the game as is.

True, but from a storytelling perspective, those kinds of characters are never involving to the viewer/reader/player.  They're just backdrop.  They're called two-dimensional.  If that's the protagonist, the movie/book/game sucks, because you just don't care about them.

Thankfully ME2 doens't suck, because it has other characters for you to care about.  But if you didn't have the background from ME1, I guaranteed you almost everyone who played the game would be almost totally indifferent to Shepard.

[Nightwriter]

ReconTeam wrote...

I disagree with that, without any voice or emotion, the Warden always seemed very distant to me.

It's not really a voiced vs unvoiced thing.

We're talking about the actual lines themselves. The Warden could say funnier, more interesting things in general. The dialogue choices just had more personality.

"Chanter says 'what'?"
"Maybe tied to a flagpole and tickled."
"So... you're not only a bastard but a royal bastard?"
("I never thought anyone actually listened to me...") - "Sorry? Did you say something?"
"What a wonderful prison. If I knew they were like this I would've gotten locked up ages ago."

[EffectedByTheMasses]

What irked me a lot is that often, what the dialogue cues said were vastly different and far quirkier than what Shepard actually said, the latter normally seeming far more boring and flat.

[sagefic]

Pacifien wrote...

I think one incident that demonstrated Shepard had personality was the locker scene in ME1. Frustration with the locker, slumping down on the ground, allowing another person to discuss the mess you guys are in (or telling them to go away if you're not the sort to get into it). That sort of stuff allows for some dimension to the character.

I agree. That was a very telling moment.

I think a lot of it is also the lack of Backstory elements in ME2.

In ME1, my sheps all felt very different, and it wasn't just the appearance or classes. It was the fact that a Colonist Ruthless just *felt* very different than a Colonist War Hero, and Earthborn Sole Survivor, etc. Through the first "act" of the game - Eden Prime through the Citadel - you kept meeting random people who knew Shep from his/her reputation. The few sidequests unique to backgrounds also added to that impression that Shep was this developing character that had a particular history that had shaped him/her. And Shep could talk to Ash/Kaidan/Liara about his/her past. All that added up to a few role-play moments that were just small moments, but they really colored the whole of the story for me, because they set one Shep apart from another. A Ruthless who said, "I could repeat Torfan" had a very different feel to me than one who seemed to regret it.

But ME2, there were no such moments. Other than choosing paragon/renegade choices and an LI (or remaining faithful), Shep really had no character-defining dialog. Your preservice history counted for just about nothing and people only remembered you as "Oh, hey, it's Shep!" - not hero-paragon Shep or bad-ass Shep - heck, even Conrand Verner didn't get the paragon/renegade Shep correct. So IMO, ME2 Sheps felt very similar. I had a very renegade male Shep, a very paragon femshep, and a renegon femshep - the two femsheps felt almost identical, in spite of different backgrounds and choices, because there were many fewer defining moments and no unique quests.

I understand that many RP elements were stripped down for the sake of epicness, shooter gameplay, etc., and on the whole, I love both ME1 and ME2 in different ways. I've said this before, but ME1 reads like a novel (Shep's military "coming of age" story, as it were) and ME2 like a collection of short stories. It's just that in the short story collection, the recurring character that is Shep didn't get much time to star in a story of his/her own. He/She just wandered through everyone else's story - Garrus's, Tali's, etc., and occasionally had a line. The result was Shep didn't feel terribly real or nuanced. I hope that ME3 proves to be a little more novel-like and returns Shepard to the main-character and gives the player time and opportunity to develop that character.

Modifié par sagequeen, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:43 .

[Quething]

sagequeen wrote...

Through the first "act" of the game - Eden Prime through the Citadel - you kept meeting random people who knew Shep from his/her reputation.

Not just the first act; you carry your rep through the whole game. Ash and Kaiden will bring it up when getting to know you, during a romance and after Virmire. Liara will talk about it during her second conversation. Your final dialog with Conrad changes. Jeong will mention your rep on Feros, and so will some of the colonists' ambient dialog after killing the Thorian. Balak will bring it up during BDtS. Anoleis will taunt you over your childhood. And it's not just a same-line-flipped-pronoun kind of thing, either, most of those change Shepard's response dialog too.

It's amazing how much texture it gives the game, and it made the total lack of that in ME2 stand out really starkly. Where was my Sole Survivor's opportunity to call out Cerberus for Akuze? Why didn't my War Hero or Butcher of Torfan have unique dialog with that batarian bartender in Omega? Why don't I have any Earthborn wisdom to offer during Thane's loyalty mission, or Spacer insight on quarian culture, or comments about how Horizon reminds me of Mindoir?

You're right, it really makes every Shep feel very same-y and indistinct, in a way that ME1 wasn't even if you never went near the six background sidequests.

[Nightwriter]

The opportunities Quething lists for background-unique dialogue are salivating.

I have a colonist/war hero and I constantly want to comment on batarians. They killed my whole family, I butchered a ton of them and foiled one of their biggest raids ever. We have history. Let's expand on that.

Background/career feedback would be so great. You know, not just feedback on individual backgrounds and career choices, but feedback tailored to address your specific background/career combination.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

double post? 

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 06 septembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Quething wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Through the first "act" of the game - Eden Prime through the Citadel - you kept meeting random people who knew Shep from his/her reputation.

Not just the first act; you carry your rep through the whole game. Ash and Kaiden will bring it up when getting to know you, during a romance and after Virmire. Liara will talk about it during her second conversation. Your final dialog with Conrad changes. Jeong will mention your rep on Feros, and so will some of the colonists' ambient dialog after killing the Thorian. Balak will bring it up during BDtS. Anoleis will taunt you over your childhood. And it's not just a same-line-flipped-pronoun kind of thing, either, most of those change Shepard's response dialog too.

It's amazing how much texture it gives the game, and it made the total lack of that in ME2 stand out really starkly. Where was my Sole Survivor's opportunity to call out Cerberus for Akuze? Why didn't my War Hero or Butcher of Torfan have unique dialog with that batarian bartender in Omega? Why don't I have any Earthborn wisdom to offer during Thane's loyalty mission, or Spacer insight on quarian culture, or comments about how Horizon reminds me of Mindoir?

You're right, it really makes every Shep feel very same-y and indistinct, in a way that ME1 wasn't even if you never went near the six background sidequests.

I love you.

I also thought that Shepard's depth was less than adequate for a main character. I mean, that excuse would fly if we were talking about Oblivion or Morrowind, games that basically hand you a random NPC generator which you use to create a blank slate character with no history, but in Mass Effect? Mass Effect 1 set a precedent of allowing us the option of defining our character through meaningful conversations with characters.

In ME1,

Ashley asks you about your faith,
Jenkins comments on your combat background, and you are given three different responses (a few being sorrow/regret at your past actions),
Ashley asks you how you dealt with the horrors of Akuze (for sole survivor characters),
You can agree with Ashley on her racist views, or disagree (and change her in the process),
You can give Garrus a life lesson through conversations on the Normandy (and during his personal mission), that depend on your Shepard's world view,

... and on and on.

Mass Effect 1 was full of these moments, and none of them "forced" unwanted character development on you; you defined your character based on how you chose to respond; to people asking about your past, to Garrus's misgivings regarding C-Sec, to Ashley's faith, to Tali's conversations about her people, to Liara's talks about her culture... Mass Effect 2 had moments that allowed you to define your character somewhat, but nowhere near as many (or as brilliant) as the ones that were throughout the first game.

Whereas Mass Effect 1 was about getting to know the characters (and did a great job of accomplishing this), Mass Effect 2 was more about meeting new people and getting down to business. Anyone who played the sequel without also playing the first game would have missed out on all this great character building, and those of us who have, sorely missed it in ME2.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 06 septembre 2010 - 08:46 .