105 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

Athenau wrote...

Where did you get this info from? I knew it worked on full shielded enemies, but I've never heard that that was the reason why.

My own observation. I noticed that inferno would sometimes panic people through defenses, but it it never happened when I was firing at just one dude. After a few trials I realized that every time the panic + AoE triggered everyone would just start flailing around.

What's to say it's not just working through defenses? I mean I know that Eric said it's not supposed to, but that doesn't mean that it isn't. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at.

[edit here] Actually I think you and I had the same idea but I completely misread what you said. You're saying that even if the panic attack in and of itself doesn't work through the defenses that the AOE portion of it does right? 

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 septembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[Athenau]

[edit here] Actually I think you and I had the same idea but I completely misread what you said. You're saying that even if the panic attack in and of itself doesn't work through the defenses that the AOE portion of it does right?

Yeah, exactly. It looks like there's only one check for the panic proc (on the guy you're hitting directly), and if it passes everyone in the AoE (if you get the AoE trigger) gets panicked.

Modifié par Athenau, 03 septembre 2010 - 12:02 .

[EvilTyger]

I tend to only use squad ammo on a few key characters, and rotate them around based on what I'm doing. One with Warp Ammo, one with Incendiary. After that, anyone else's power goes Heavy. (Though many characters I don't use either.)



... I really hope they go back to ammo management being items instead of powers for ME3.

[Synthetic Frost]

at the risk of derailing this thread even further off-topic, I’ll go ahead and add to EvilTyger’s sentiments.

One thing that I felt ME1 and ME2 really lacked in terms of RPG centric gear was the long, optional missions chains to obtain the best gear for your squad.

I said this once on the old forums before ME2 came out, and it seemed to go over well, was that certain characters would provide certain weapon bonuses. Like Garrus adding the Tungsten rounds for the group. This made it into ME2 through the ammo powers, but it was taken as a Loyalty quest power rather than an item only that character could equip.

Personally, I’d like it better if Mass Effect took a more traditional take on armor and weapons. With progressively better (AND graphically distinct) weapons as you make your way through the game, with each character’s best and most iconic gear being obtained from quest chains longer than the loyalty missions in ME2 (IE: Crono’s Rainbow Sword or Frog’s Masamune 2 from Chrono Trigger).

And once you gained those items, Selecting the “Squad” variant would meld the two powers of the teammates you had with you across all weapons. Like having both Warp and Disruptor ammo powers on at the same time would generate a 3rd effect. Like a mild stun or EMP effect. Or AP + Incendiary would melt armor, lowering the armor’s maximum value.

Naturally they’d have to rebalance things, make armor stronger than it is now and all that. But you get the idea.

Modifié par Synthetic Frost, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:49 .

[termokanden]

I completely agree about the gear. You should obtain better gear as you progress through the game, not just have the best from the very beginning with maybe one upgrade later.

[Kronner]

termokanden wrote...

I completely agree about the gear. You should obtain better gear as you progress through the game, not just have the best from the very beginning with maybe one upgrade later.

Yes, level requirement would be sufficient. For example Kestrel gear only for 25+ level characters etc.

[termokanden]

That would work, certainly.

[sinosleep]

kajtarp wrote...

yes, they changed too much in mass effect 2. Still we love it, but there are things wich were just better in the first episode.

Imo grenades and ammo should be equipment,not skill, just as armor should be equipment for everyone. Also it sucks that we can only customize shepard's armor, but thats not possible for squadmates.

I've said from the get go that if not being able to customize squadmate gear is what made distinct body types available then it's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to make. I HATED that in DA:O when Morrigan is wearing her default robes she DOESN'T share the same body type as every other female in the game. Yet magically when you change her gear up and place her in something else the default body type appears with her head plastered on to it. Clearly, even in 2009 it was deemed to much of a pain in the ass to make different versions of every piece of armor in the game for your party.

In ME 2 Jack, Miranda, and the PC all have VERY different bodytypes, I like that. Nothing takes me out of a game more than seeing everyone in the world with the same exact body and seeing the same 9 faces on every single person you meet.

Also, when it comes to itemization I think Bioware just isn't very good at it. In the original ME and DA: O even though they have itemization in game it winds up not meaning much any way. 90% of everything cool is store bought so really what's the point of loot? Blizzard had it right when they went with random loot generation way back when. It encourages going loot hunting because more often than not what you found in dungeons was going to be FAR superior to anything you could get in a store. When your best items are store found then loot becomes nothing more than vendor trash to get the money to buy the good items from the store. It defeats th purpose.

[termokanden]

Yeah the itemization in ME1 was not good. 99% of all loot was utterly useless, and ridiculously you had to hang on to your rank VII ammo, because it was vastly better than the higher level ammos for the most part.



Doesn't mean it can't be improved.



Take a system like the one in ME1 and give it a good overhaul. Make sure the ammos scale up and that there are tradeoffs between different types. Balance out the mods and weapons, and again remember tradeoffs so you don't always use the same. It CAN be done.

[ezrafetch]

sinosleep wrote...

Also, when it comes to itemization I think Bioware just isn't very good at it. In the original ME and DA: O even though they have itemization in game it winds up not meaning much any way. 90% of everything cool is store bought so really what's the point of loot? Blizzard had it right when they went with random loot generation way back when. It encourages going loot hunting because more often than not what you found in dungeons was going to be FAR superior to anything you could get in a store. When your best items are store found then loot becomes nothing more than vendor trash to get the money to buy the good items from the store. It defeats th purpose.

Bioware should study the nitty-gritty of RPG from Blizzard.  The big problem is that areas are un-replayable.  They can't sensibly make an uber-awesome available to players if it's a one-time drop with a low chance like it is in most RPGs (hello, reloading the game 10000000 times to find an item).  If you can't kill, say, Sophia, multiple times because you super want that Warden Tower Shield, then you have to save and reload constantly.  Sure, it detracts from the whole "quest-i-ness" of the whole game since some times you may have to repeat sections ("I have to kill ****ing Blood Raven again?!?" -DII), but the best items would be loot and you could play the game enough to find them.

[termokanden]

In its early days, WoW had worse itemization than DAO for sure. Couldn't even increase spelldamage at all for example.



Only reason it's better now is that they've been working for years to tune it. Bioware, I think, spend more resources on developing DLC and other games than they do finetuning existing content.

[sinosleep]

No one has mentioned WOW though, we're talking about Diablo. Which had awesome loot from jump.

[termokanden]

I have now



I don't think it has any place in a single-player game that bosses respawn just so you can loot them again.

[sinosleep]

termokanden wrote...

I have now

I don't think it has any place in a single-player game that bosses respawn just so you can loot them again.

I never suggested that to begin with, I just suggested going with some kind of random loot table, even if it's only going to apply to lower level mobs or don't bother with loot at all. Cause IMO, if the loot only functions as vendor trash then I don't have any fun collecting it. It's just crap taking up space in my damned inventory making it hard to find the stuff I actually do want to use since I know everything I'm picking up will just soon be sold to the vendors any way.

It's why I don't feel that anything was lost from ME 1 to ME 2 as far as itemization goes. Now instead of buying 2 speciic sets of armor for everyone in your party and some form or another of spectre gear weapon you find/research your weapons while buying armor for yourself. It's got about the same level of useable itemization while getting rid of vendor trash.

[Athenau]

The concept of random loot in a game like ME is dumb and totally immersion breaking. Enemies should drop what they're carrying, no more.

Better itemization should come through more weapon customization (slots for ammo mods, branching upgrade trees) and armor with the new stuff steadily unlocked throughout the game. Not by attempting to replicate the Diablo slot machine (even though I love Diablo to death).

[termokanden]

Oh yeah I agree about that Sinosleep. But like I said, they could have improved the system.

I'm not sure random loot is the answer, just more actual good loot leading to some decent tradeoffs.

Or having tough optional quests for the best gear.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:40 .

[sinosleep]

Athenau wrote...

The concept of random loot in a game like ME is dumb and totally immersion breaking. Enemies should drop what they're carrying, no more.
Better itemization should come through more weapon customization (slots for ammo mods, branching upgrade trees) and armor with the new stuff steadily unlocked throughout the game. Not by attempting to replicate the Diablo slot machine (even though I love Diablo to death).

If the loot is nothing special then again I ask, what is the point of it? Loot for the express purpose of vendor trash is stupid. All it leads to is time wasted unloading all the crap you've picked up to vendors and clogged up inventories. if the loot isn't worth picking up for any purpose other than to sell it then I don't friggen want it.

Although really if you want to get into immersion breaking any kind of loot system is going to be immersion breaking in a game like ME. In a fantasy setting it's easy to rationalize why enemies might have more powerful weapons than you. In ME's universe though? If they drop awesome items you're a guy who is funded by a guy to whom money is no object but some random mooks have got yout totally out geared? But if they're dropping crapolla you are stopping in the middle of battles to pick up a bunch of worthless guns to stuff in your inifnite mass back pack to sell for money you shouldn't need in the first place? If they drop good gear it's immersion breaking, if they drop crap it's just as immersion breaking. ME 2's system is less immersion breaking than either of those extremes.

[Athenau]

Enemies wouldn't drop sellable loot, but presumably you could scavenge their weapons for ammo (assuming they keep the ammo system), and it wouldn't be random like the thermal clip drops in ME2.

I agree that having the science fiction equivalent of "vendor trash" is stupid. They should just build on the system they have now rather than try to shoehorn in mechanics that don't work.

Modifié par Athenau, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:00 .

[ezrafetch]

sinosleep wrote...

No one has mentioned WOW though, we're talking about Diablo. Which had awesome loot from jump.

Rightey-o, Diablo is where it's at. Not the weak, womanly WoW junk people seem to have their britches in a twist about these days. I agree with sino, the (lack of a) loot system in ME2 worked out because if you're not making the loot worthwhile, don't have loot.

Thermal clips worked out because they wanted to keep the combat smooth. Especially since they applied to all ammo. If you want to segregate ammo based on type, you're going to have each and every type drop absurdly often. If you don't have ammo drop every enemy, then most conceivably your average gamer will just run low on ammo...and then you become a survival horror game, and a poor man's survival-horror game to boot. Plus, enemies dropping thermal clips is essentially scavenging their weapons for ammo, am I wrong? It saves selecting the body, saying "Keep this ammo," which if you're already trying to smooth out combat, seems to be entirely unnecessary.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[termokanden]

The ammo upgrades obviously aren't meant to be picked up separately for every weapon. I was hoping they could have an updated version of the mod system instead. Besides it doesn't make sense to have different types of ammo drop as it isn't actually ammo at all, it's just thermal clips.

I've tried the different ammo types thing in Call of Pripyat which I am playing through at the moment. That IS survival horror btw. It's cool if you like micromanagement, but it's probably annoying for the average gamer.

What I had in mind for ME3 is that they could have an updated mod system for weapons. Like the one in ME1 but without all the trash drops and lack of balance. The average gamer could pick a decent option for everything, but you'd also have to option to mod your weapons between missions for to finetune for certain types of situations or even to fit your playstyle.

Quite like Call of Pripyat actually! There you can mod your weapons to fit your playstyle. If you like full auto, you will mod for recoil reduction and handling. If you are more of a sniper type, you will mod for bullet velocity and accuracy.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:33 .

[Synthetic Frost]

Well, we’d need a solution that wouldn’t stray “too much” from the current formula. I like the diablo style loot system, but wouldn’t that be a little on the ambitious side considering Bioware’s past reputation with loot?

[jwalker]

Athenau wrote...

The concept of random loot in a game like ME is dumb and totally immersion breaking. Enemies should drop what they're carrying, no more.
Better itemization should come through more weapon customization (slots for ammo mods, branching upgrade trees) and armor with the new stuff steadily unlocked throughout the game. Not by attempting to replicate the Diablo slot machine (even though I love Diablo to death).

That was a really nice feature en Deus Ex....

[Tony Gunslinger]

Sorry, but Shepard carrying a weapon called Harmonious Shock Assault Rifle of the Crescent Nebula doesn't sit well for me...

Borderlands is what you're looking for, and the loot system works in that game because the loot system IS the entire game. It has no story, no dialog, just well-designed wild-wild west treasure-hunting atmosphere to keep you glued in that world for no other reason than to loot and compare them in a cooperative-based social dynamic. ME is not multi-player, driven by story and characters, and weapons are based on technological / biological advaccement, real-world modern economic and mass-production principles, not magic stones and unique upgrades giving you random elemental effects. Who in their right mind would arm their battalion with random weapons and equipment? Let's not even get into the logistical nightmare, let alone the cost. "Gee, sarge gave me a Peasant's Rusty Sniper Rifle of the Varren but gave you the Glittering Fusion Pistol of a Thousand Exploding Black Holes, I'm soooo jealous! Oh well, I guess I'll just jump right into the suicidal firefight and try it out for the first time without any training with this weapon whatsoever. Wish me luck!"

[OniGanon]

^This.



I'm not all sad about the fact that there are a limited selection of weapons.



It would be cool though if, rather than finding upgrades in stores or missions and then researching them, we could just pay money and upgrade them in different stats (damage, rate of fire, reload speed, recoil, ammo etc).



As for ammo powers... I think they work well as they are. It gives the Soldier meaningful powers, which was really lacking in ME1.