272 réponses à ce sujet

[J4N3_M3]

I like how this whole conversation went from "all talimancers are geeky virgin lovers" over "there is only one way to love someone and it's my way" to "guys are emotionless douchebags that want to get laid and girls are submissive that run around babbling about their feelings and are always in need of a strong guy at their side" xD

this entire thread is full of stereotypes! guess we should all just agree on "attraction can be explained but may not always be understood, yet everybody's own business who they romance and why. none of us want to be judged for our own decisions, so we shouldn't judge others!"

with this, I don't even go back to lurking, I just leave this pointless conversation!

[DarthSlim108]

I never understood the whole fascination with Tali. I thought she was boring in ME1, and I liked her more in ME2 but not as a love interest. I did romance her in one of my playthroughs just to try it, but I've always been more of an Ashley/Miranda kinda guy.

[Solaris Paradox]

You might be surprised how many "geeky" guys would actually prefer to romance characters like Miranda, Ashley, or Jack precisely because they'd never be able to in real life. Personally, however, I just find Tali to be cute. And Liara's got blue skin. Blue skin is hot. Not sure why, but it is.

[s0meguy6665]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

I like how this whole conversation went from "all talimancers are geeky virgin lovers" over "there is only one way to love someone and it's my way" to "guys are emotionless douchebags that want to get laid and girls are submissive that run around babbling about their feelings and are always in need of a strong guy at their side" xD
this entire thread is full of stereotypes! guess we should all just agree on "attraction can be explained but may not always be understood, yet everybody's own business who they romance and why. none of us want to be judged for our own decisions, so we shouldn't judge others!"
with this, I don't even go back to lurking, I just leave this pointless conversation!

there's a reason for stereotypes, they tend to work with deviations (stereotypes that just dont make sense aside), which could be divided into stereotypes within stereotypes, with exceptions and of course there are always people that radically differ. They are not meant to be taken as absolute, but anyone with half a brain would understand that. no, not everyone is a unique snowflake, our preferences can well be predicted en masse based on characteristics we have in common.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 02 septembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[Siansonea]

Fanbus wrote...
*snipped*
Wait what?! That's what I get for not making definitions and going with the forum's norm.
No Tali is not a bad thing, sorry I didn't explain myself completely I was trying to keep things breif. I was trying to counter the things the OP said by stating that in my life experience the really hard up independent "looking" types, turned into Tali types (accessible, smart, kind, likes nerds, etc) once I broke through the shell.

NEVER did I say "I like a submissive woman". I never wanted to imply that. I guess saying that all women are Tali's implied that? The statement "all women are different shades of Tali" translates to:
"All women are accessible but some may give off that they are independant and tough moreso than others". It doesn't mean all women are submissive. Accessible, meaning they'll go out with you (if they want to of course) just you have to do more or less work. By all women I mean women that you would date.

I was trying to answer the statement:
"Nerds/Geeks tend to favor Tali Liara because they are a bit softer and accessible and open up to you easier where as they avoid Miranda et. al. due to the hard shell. Therefor they are less popular." I was stating that all the women I've dated were mostly Jack or Miranda types that slowly turned into a Tali type. But Tali isn't a bad thing to me. I loved Tali's a lot!

My current gf is a Tali (shares her feelings, is highly emotional, we do stuff together all the time, is my best friend). We even do hobbies together and she's a part of my "team". However, back when we met she was a Miranda. If I would have continued to do like I was doing (as the OP suggested) I would have never met her and found out that we shared a lot in common. Hence why I felt bad when my Shep doesn't go for Tali in the game.

Hope the explains it

*snipped*

No not all men are like that. Out of my group only one guy was like that and I can tell you that we were all glad when he packed his bags and moved to Idaho. If you want to know the definition of douchebag he embodied it. Part of it was me tolerating his BS. I think my gf had a lot to do with getting me to realize how much of a d-bag the guy was.

Out of my peers (and I've seen this as a growing trend) all of us (except the afformentioned idiot) have experienced a shift. The women we date and hope to date, we view as part of our team. We want to do stuff with them, work together, share experiences, share hobbies. That has a lot to do with age. I've been the primary proponent of coed social groups. The whole "the boys doing their thing" is slowly fading away. Actually my gf is the kingpin in a lot of things we do (kingpin meaning the mechanical pin holding things together). I'd like to describe it as a team working together, being best friends, sharing hobbies, activities (even male or traditionally female activities), and relying on each other even during the worst times.

*snipped*

That's unfair that you say that Siansonea. Have you ever stopped and thought of the deep conversations you've had in this forum which is primarily made up of guys? No we're not all dead beat nail heads. You're getting quite a bit of deep discussion from us on this forum and I'm sure if we were in a more broad general forum you'd get even more. So I think we should get some credit.

Besides, how dare you speak bad of me... I'm one of the only folks who's had a pretty decent conversation with you about the whole Fight for the Love debacle.


I think the electronic gaming revolution is going to change a lot. Girls that played MMOs were non exsistant a few years back. Now days I'm always either teamed up with my gf in WoW or helping someone elses gf. The days of a few beers and football I say are slowly becoming equal to LAN parties and MMO gaming.

Sorry guys, I was "carpet bombing" to illustrate a point. Many young males are really self-centered and thick headed when it comes to women, and don't ever consider what the woman 'gets' from a relationship. This is actually more a function of age and life experience than gender, as I have known many females with some pretty messed up ideas as well.

Truth be told I'm not as much of a man-hater as I might seem sometimes. Ironically, most of my friends are guys (and yes a few of them would 'like it to be more') but I think that's because I enjoy a lot of 'geeky' hobbies like video games and tabletop RPGs that are traditionally dominated by males. In my youth, I was a total Liara, impressionable, idealistic, somewhat shy, etc., and in my 30s I morphed into a Miranda, but now that I'm in my 40s I am very much a Samara (thus the avatar). Yeah, seemingly great guys do come along, but for the most part I'm just over it and would rather not complicate my life. I'll still hang out with the boys though.

And Fanbus, I do appreciate our discussion in the other thread.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

It's "anti-progressive" if one dissapproves of self-centered idiots? Funny what people consider "progress".

Modifié par ReconTeam, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:36 .

[Angmir]

3 things

- Game is a perfect enviroment for people doing things thay couldn't do in real life, so going down that road means - geeks and nerds can finally hit to the sexy girls and not constrain themselfs to other geek/nerd girls.
- If there is an actual pattern about guys preferences into women, i'd say the milenia old truth still applies - opposites attract. I belive in this completly, thogh as with all things there are (numerous) exeptions. But in general - look aroud you. Big muscule guys like fragile short girls, nerdy bookworks droll to tall long-legged busty "big sisters". In reality 2 people with strong character rearly are a good match, ass they constantly struggle for supremacy eventualy shattering their relations. Nerdy and submisive people can pair up, though such a relation is doomed to be rather borring and insatisfactive for both.
Strong men when comes to settling down generaly like to spend their life wieth submissive girls, which they cou;d protect, while her would rely on the men. And there the opposite - meek and nerdy guys make the best partners for strong, possesive , and self-reliable women. This is pure nature - combining poeple to the best of their mutual performance.
- finaly - if there is any conclusion about Tali and Liara being the most popular LI in game, it is that people generaly like beeing admired and arouse intrest, and those two are wet and sweat after you from the first moment. Additionaly i'd say for myself that Tali is aspecionaly well designed one in comparison to rather shallow backgroud, In real life given the choise of successfully wooing for one night one of the characters from ME, non (sane) would have picked masked alien. But in spite of this being just a game, and we lack the ability to actualy taste the relationship with in-game partner the phisical aspect gives away to deep emotional dialog expirience

damn it turn to be lot more than i initialy wanted


PS. I myself in real life am much into meek, sensitive, somewhat helpless, if charming and cheerfull girls, and I think Tali reasembles that, I guess that Jack would also do, appart to her punk look and feel. Ashley was fine too. Miranda and Liara were a bit ... empty, to little emotion, to much idle chatter.

Modifié par Angmir, 02 septembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[MajesticJazz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Most are uncomfortable with
sharing them, or having them shared with them - they're things we deal
with internally. Call it a defensive mechanism, call it being
emotionally stunted, but there it is.  Men and women speak and feel in
what could be considered different languages, and things get lost in
translation.

You also have to remember that us
men were brought up to NEVER show any emotion because it isn't
"manlike". A 5-7 year old little girl could fall and bruise/cut herself
and she would begin to cry. As soon as this would happen, the mother and
father would instantly come to comfort this little girl and tell her
that everything is going to be okay. Let a 5-7 year old little boy call
and bruise/cut himself and start to cry, most of the time the father
(but even sometimes the mother) well still comfort the boy but tell him
to stop crying and and such. We are taught from a very young age that
too much crying is a sign of weakness in a male but not the same with
females. So as we get older, we take this concept into our adult lives.
There are many things that might make us want to cry or get emotional
but we know we should not because of the fear of being seen as weak and
"acting like a women". THIS is why a lot of
the times mens seek to physical or verbal violence or even seclusion to
solve our problems whereas women would be open to talk to their
girlfriends and whatnot.

Siansonea II wrote...


And this is why I am
emphatically single. So many men get weird if you start to have feelings
for them, and act like you're asking them for a kidney or something.
Ironically, the more over it I am, the more attractive men seem to find
me. Naturally. It's almost comical. If I really want someone to go away,
all I have to do is act like I care. It's like magic. I think most men
want a woman who is actually a man in a woman's body, somebody who
thinks like they do, and doesn't 'hassle' them. Well, good luck with
that, we can live without you a lot easier than you can live without us,
that's for sure.

I think that's why Kaidan is so popular, to be honest. He's the guy we women wish
existed, normal and not afraid to care about someone, and have someone
care about him. BioWare knew what they were doing with him, I know there
were female writers involved in that character. It's no wonder so many
men hate him, he's not like them.

Not liking the generalizations when the shoe is on the other foot, are you?

Who
says I'm upset? I'm a 25 year young single guy enjoying himself. So I
guess you're wrong when you say that we (men) can't live without women
the same way women can live without men. This is a progressive world we
live in. This isn't the 1800s where a man and women HAD to be married by
a certain age with kids or else something would be wrong with them.
There are men and women marrying each other in their 50s or even 60s
today and not having kids and TOTALLY fine with that. Something like
that long time ago would be seen as weird.

I did not mean to
upset your or offend you, I'm just calling it how I see it. While you
and many other women might be the rarity, the truth is, MOST women do
seek strong emotional and even some cases, financially security from
men. Why is it that most of the time it is the female pressuring the
male to get married and not the other way around? Again, you might not
be that type which is great, but sadly, your mentality is not a general
representation of most women.

There are two types of women in my mind. The women who are truely emotionally/financially independent (such as yourself perhaps) and then there are those women who "say" they are emotionally/financially independent just to win over points with the guys but as soon as they get into the relationship, they regress into that role of being....dependent on the guy.

Madcat46 wrote...


Here's my opinion... I don't consider myself nerdy, geeky, maybe somewhat socially awkward but I can usually hold my own when it comes down to it . But did you ever think it might be because they're ALIENS!? How often do you get to romance an alien? Anyone can romance another human... when was the last time you saw a blue chick walking around? =)

Maybe they're just popular because you know you can't have them, that's usually how life works, no?

True, I know that there is some aspect to Tali and Liara being aliens whereas Miranda, Ashley, and Jack are humans but this is beyond that. Take away the aspect that Liara and Tali were aliens. Say Tali was a cacuasian female and Liara was an asian female but they both have the SAME personalities as the alien Tali/Liara. I still believe theyy would appeal more to the geek, nerds, socially awkward types.

[Eldareus]

MajesticJazz wrote...

I think what he was trying to say, is that no matter how strong, dominate, or independent a women may be. Whenever she gets deeply in a relationship with a male (And possibly fall in love), most of the time the women would eventually take on the....well......female role and let the male be the "one in charge" and so on.

I am not going to say that ALL women are like this, but I will say that MOST women are like that. No matter how young or old, attractive or unnattractive, dependent or independent, MOST women would eventually fall into the "I let my man lead" attitude.

Sad, but true.

You obviously never been married.

[MajesticJazz]

Knightstar2001 wrote...

I don't know yet if this has been mention already,but a big reason they are so popular could be because they are from the First game and therefor have more history among those who brought their character over. The alien part is a factor, I won't lie.

True, I see what you are saying, but you have to remember that even before ME2, Liara and Tali were more popular then Ashley.

That is funny because before ME1 came out, Liara was the most popular THEN Ashely was second with nobody really caring about Tali. Then after ME came out and everyone got to play the game, suddenly Tali became more popular then Ashley and Liara/Tali became the two favorites whereas Ashley was just that loner in the basement. If it was all because they were aliens, wouldn't you think Tali would have been more popular then Ashley before ME1's launch?

[Thompson family]

Wishpig wrote...

Your looking into this way to much.

There's considerable truth there.

[Eldareus]

MajesticJazz wrote...

[
True, I see what you are saying, but you have to remember that even before ME2, Liara and Tali were more popular then Ashley.

I believe the big turn off for most people with Ashley was her narrow-mindedness towards aliens. I'm sure the reference to her belief in God didn't score any points with the Atheists either. Liara was much easier to romance as well.

[Titanmike357]

I find tali and the blue chick hot for different reasons.

Tali and Liara are mysterious, yet smart and capable. If not slightly shy and timid. I find all of that to be cute and good personality.

Those also are a close match to my personality. I am a more laid back person, slightly shy at times and I don't talk often around strangers.

I dislike a aggressive person in general, so Ash and Miranda are both out in terms of would I really go for that.

I value intelligence and easy going personality over a more aggressive preppy one.

trust me, i been with skinny preppy girls (the air heads) who knew next to nothing about doing anything, even basic things.

larger girls who are really nice and the ones in the middle. The not stick thin bones showing, or larger than I. Just right, with some curves.

They tend to be in the middle of the other two, and slightly smarter, average I guess, but they also tend to try more than the girls who know they are really attractive, but not as hard as the ones who are not very attractive.

Some one who knows how to do basic things, capable of caring for her self, yet not throwing it up to you or trying to prove it.


Miranda knows who and what she is, and flaunts it, the girl that knows shw is hot and has it. I hate that.

Ashley is aggressive, and something else about her just turns me away.

(edit)

Above hit it on the head, Ahsley to too religuious for me. I am not a non believer.

I can not prive or disprove "god" exists, personally I think its a possablitly.

Religion ruined one of my past dates.

Modifié par Titanmike357, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[Thompson family]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Funny thing about message boards. You think you've posted the definitive counter argument and walk away, almost arrogant in your satisfaction with a job well done.

Then you come back and there's still more pages, none referencing your points, continuing on if you never posted.

Humble pie, indeed.

Ah, the elusive definitive counter argument. The sought for Holy Grail of the Internet forum.

The closest I ever got was on another game's forum. Some guy was arguing that trash-talking on online play was all right. I thought I made several well-reasoned responses, and he kept coming back with what I thought was juvenile braggado. Finally, he asked me what my problem was, or something like that. I replied: "My momma loved me enough to teach me some manners." At least I paid him back in his own coin.

Modifié par Thompson family, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Nightwriter]

Maybe "geeks" are drawn more toward Tali because it takes time to draw her out of her shell, which appeals to them. Liara pretty much comes out and rushes you with her feelings. Tali hides them. And pines secretly. Silently. Like, you know, geeks.



What does "geek" mean in this conversation, anyway? Sci-fi lover? Videogame player? Star Trek fan? Well that's me to a T.



Or does it mean introvert? Socially inept? Shy? Humble? I have never been accused of any of these things.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I have to say Siansonea is taking this WAY too seriously.



Not that I don't agree with some of her remarks, but of course...

[Siansonea]

MajesticJazz wrote...

*snipped*

You also have to remember that us men were brought up to NEVER show any emotion because it isn't "manlike". A 5-7 year old little girl could fall and bruise/cut herself and she would begin to cry. As soon as this would happen, the mother and father would instantly come to comfort this little girl and tell her that everything is going to be okay. Let a 5-7 year old little boy call and bruise/cut himself and start to cry, most of the time the father (but even sometimes the mother) well still comfort the boy but tell him to stop crying and and such. We are taught from a very young age that too much crying is a sign of weakness in a male but not the same with females. So as we get older, we take this concept into our adult lives. There are many things that might make us want to cry or get emotional but we know we should not because of the fear of being seen as weak and "acting like a women". THIS is why a lot of the times mens seek to physical or verbal violence or even seclusion to solve our problems whereas women would be open to talk to their girlfriends and whatnot.

This is true, and it is telling that many of the insults that males hurl at one another are words that imply that the person in question is female, feminine, or homosexual. There really aren't many insults meant to convey that a man is 'too masculine'. Currently our culture over-praises masculinity and masculine behavior, and female/feminine persons are largely seen as inferior or weak, even if females are encouraged to 'express their emotions' more than males during the formative years. So who is to say which gender is more damaged by the status quo?

That said, I think there is a physical/hormonal component to the issue as well. I think male and female brains are wired rather differently due to the influence of androgens during prenatal development. It is not purely an environmental phenomenon, but a combination of physiological and psychological/societal factors.

*snipped*

Who says I'm upset? I'm a 25 year young single guy enjoying himself. So I guess you're wrong when you say that we (men) can't live without women the same way women can live without men. This is a progressive world we live in. This isn't the 1800s where a man and women HAD to be married by a certain age with kids or else something would be wrong with them. There are men and women marrying each other in their 50s or even 60s today and not having kids and TOTALLY fine with that. Something like that long time ago would be seen as weird.

I did not mean to upset your or offend you, I'm just calling it how I see it. While you and many other women might be the rarity, the truth is, MOST women do seek strong emotional and even some cases, financially security from men. Why is it that most of the time it is the female pressuring the male to get married and not the other way around? Again, you might not be that type which is great, but sadly, your mentality is not a general representation of most women.

There are two types of women in my mind. The women who are truely emotionally/financially independent (such as yourself perhaps) and then there are those women who "say" they are emotionally/financially independent just to win over points with the guys but as soon as they get into the relationship, they regress into that role of being....dependent on the guy.

I am not surprised that you are in your 20s. I would venture to say that 10 years from now your views on this subject will be considerably different.

I wish I knew why so many women were eager to get married, but I suspect it is due to the desire to have children, as well as societal and family pressure. Women in our society are often led to think that regardless of our career successes, we can't truly be considered a successful person unless we are married and have children. The desire to have children is very strong in a lot of women, much like the desire for intercourse is for males. That's evolution for you, all the talk of equality between the sexes doesn't negate the fact that there are still very real biological differences between them. When it comes right down to it, we really are just fancy monkeys with on overly high opinion of ourselves.

In my own case, I have never been in a situation where I was financially dependent on a man, if anything it's been the reverse, and boy does THAT get old. I can tell you that I would be very uncomfortable with having to rely on a man for financial support, or really much of anything else. I strive to structure my life in such a way that I am dependent on myself to the greatest extent possible. Naturally this makes relationships far less desirable, since even the best relationships require a good deal of interdependence at the very least.

I guess my approach to relationships is 'what could you possibly give me that is worth giving up my freedom and autonomy'? I hate to break it to you guys, but sex isn't nearly as compelling for us as it is for you. We can go for days and days without even thinking about sex at all. I know that's hard for you guys to imagine, but it's true. So if sex isn't part of the equation, what are we left with? Our dear friends are better at comforting us when we're down, our families are better at providing financial assistance when we're in the red, and our casual acquaintances are usually better at showing us a fun time when we just need to relax. And they don't leave the toilet seat up and drink the last of the orange juice.

On the other hand, a man in a committed relationship usually gets a sexual partner on a regular basis, which is an enormous benefit to them, and often a cook/maid as well. I know women who put up with this type of situation for years without any sort of real reciprocity, only to be dumped when the man finds someone he likes better to start the cycle over with. There are numerous books and magazines and videos out there that instruct us women how to find a man, how to please a man, how to understand a man, and how to keep a man. You don't see very many men trying to find, please, understand and keep a woman. This seems completely backward to me. If I live to be a hundred years old, I will never understand this situation.

*snipped*

True, I know that there is some aspect to Tali and Liara being aliens whereas Miranda, Ashley, and Jack are humans but this is beyond that. Take away the aspect that Liara and Tali were aliens. Say Tali was a cacuasian female and Liara was an asian female but they both have the SAME personalities as the alien Tali/Liara. I still believe theyy would appeal more to the geek, nerds, socially awkward types.

Well, there is an Asian version of Tali in the game, her name is Kasumi.

[Siansonea]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I have to say Siansonea is taking this WAY too seriously.

Not that I don't agree with some of her remarks, but of course...

Maybe not as seriously as you might think...

[Fiery Phoenix]

Siansonea II wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I have to say Siansonea is taking this WAY too seriously.

Not that I don't agree with some of her remarks, but of course...

Maybe not as seriously as you might think...

Yeah, well, I guess not, but you know what I mean.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[Oblivious]

Eldareus wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

[
True, I see what you are saying, but you have to remember that even before ME2, Liara and Tali were more popular then Ashley.

I believe the big turn off for most people with Ashley was her narrow-mindedness towards aliens. I'm sure the reference to her belief in God didn't score any points with the Atheists either. Liara was much easier to romance as well.

Let's take a quick rundown of Ashley.

- Fanatical
- Racist
- Hypocrite
- Religious
- A genuine b!tch. I have never called Miranda or Morrigan that but Ashley deserves it. She torments poor Liara for absolutely no reason other than her race:unsure:

Then you save her butt on Virmire and get her promoted. How does she respond to you after a 2-year reunion "You're with Cerberus trying to save humans? Get the **** away from me!"

[curly haired boy]

wow, this thread got ugly FAST. D:



i dunno, though. i think if i had to explain why i liked Tali in ME1 in 2 words, it'd have to be this: no drama. compared to liara and ash, she's got a level head. basically, she was the female kaiden. sure, she's got history, but she's professional enough to have dealt with it.



same thing with jacob and tali in ME2: family issues crop up, yeah, but both are prepared to deal with them on their own. hell, tali was ready to buy her own ticket.



i guess you could say both are good at compartmentalization. i'm good at that too, and i like it in my teammates.

[Redcoat]

Could somebody please explain to me where this idea of "Ashley is
racist" comes from? Granted, she is distrustful of aliens in regards to
the mission, but I don't recall her ever stating that humans are
inherently superior to aliens. In fact, she even calls Terra Firma
"xenophobic jackals." Ashley was never my first choice for romance, but
the way some people speak of her you'd imagine she was a member of the KKK. Guess it's another example of the bizarre "character factionalism" of fans.

But back on topic, I suspect that Liara and Tali's appeal comes from the fact that they are demure and approachable, as opposed to Jack, who pushes everyone away, and Miranda, who acts condescending and superior. I don't think it takes a big stretch of the imagination to see why many people would prefer the former sort of woman to the latter.

[Azint]

I, for one, break the stereotype for not being a nerdy/geeky/socially awkward male.



Nerdy is debatable, after all, I am posting on a video game board.