272 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

No you're not. This is all a dream, you're not really a videogamer and there's no such thing as Mass Effect. You're actually Tom Cruise. Wake up and let Katie out of the cage for her afternoon walk. Pay your daily worship to the L Ron Hubbard shrine in your closet.

[kalle90]

Siansonea II wrote...

*snipped*

True, I know that there is some aspect to Tali and Liara being aliens whereas Miranda, Ashley, and Jack are humans but this is beyond that. Take away the aspect that Liara and Tali were aliens. Say Tali was a cacuasian female and Liara was an asian female but they both have the SAME personalities as the alien Tali/Liara. I still believe theyy would appeal more to the geek, nerds, socially awkward types.

Well, there is an Asian version of Tali in the game, her name is Kasumi.

If the 2 are comparable this theory gets thrown out of the window. Tali is great, but Kasumi is someone I'd gladly kick out of my crew. A cocky thief who doesn't tell anything about herself besides having only 1 ghost left in her closet. I doubt you can compare them though as Kasumi has so little dialogue, which comes back to the "Tali is a returning character"

[MrnDvlDg161]

Donno ---



With some of the commentary I've read, I seriously hope that they are a small minority than a majority, otherwise I wouldn't question why women would seal themselves up in a convent.



You want to talk about a soupy cesspool of chauvinism and selfishness lol --- with some of these attitudes, your going to end up what the duck got in terms of who you end up with.

[Shadow_broker]

Tali wouldn't get with some nerdy geeky dude

She only gets with shepard because he saved the universe,nothing about his personality intrest her it seems.

Tali is a alien booty call, nothing more

[robtheguru]

The only reason anyone gets with Shepard is because he blatantly going to be running the universe soon. I mean lets be honest, have you seen the creepy face he pulls when he tries to smile? Who could love that? I bet when his mother seen him smile she beat him silly and told him not to do it again.

[casedawgz]

Siansonea II wrote...

 It's no wonder so many men hate him, he's not like them.

I can't speak for other men, but I hate him because he sounds like Carth.

[V-rex]

[quote]Oblivious wrote...

[quote]Eldareus wrote...

[quote]MajesticJazz wrote...

[
True, I see what you are saying, but you have to remember that even before ME2, Liara and Tali were more popular then Ashley.

[/quote]


I believe the big turn off for most people with Ashley was her narrow-mindedness towards aliens. I'm sure the reference to her belief in God didn't score any points with the Atheists either. Liara was much easier to romance as well. [/quote]Let's take a quick rundown of Ashley.

- Fanatical[/quote]
Okay, in what regard are you talking about? Because if you mean she is determined to do her mission and sides with the Alliance devotedly then that just makes her someone with strong loyalty ties. Not fanatical.
If you are referring to her religious side then well... how in the hell does saying that you believe in god make you a fanatic?
If she had declared her faith the only truth in the universe and all should be killed to praise her mad ocelot god that would be fanatic. As it stands awkwardly mentioning that you believe in god ONCE, in the entire cause of a thirty hour game, ONCE makes you a fanatic then well... actually no, if you think that way, you are bigoted.

[quote]- Racist[/quote]

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhh
Ashley isn't racist.
Yes she is distrustful of alien foreign powers. This is because she has a lack of personal experience working with alien races and because her family name has gone down in history as 'traitors' due to her grandfather was the first human ever to surrender to an alien race in the First Contact war. Hence with a blacklisted family name that has haunted her military career her whole life, Ashley has developed an aggressive and determined stance to regain her family honor. Even though she should actually blame the Alliance for her family name being shafted, she uses the Council as the blame figure because she was raised to be a 'patriot'.
Later on in conversation if you pursue the right options you learn that deep down she always understood this but had been in denial and now that it's been said out loud she has to accept that she has no reason to be angry at the Council or the Turians and grows to be more accepting of them, as well as learning to be more trusting of alien foreign powers in general.
That is not a racist.
A racist is someone who thinks of their race as 'the master race' and compares others as lesser beings to them. Ashley does not fit that, at one point she maintains that she doesn't think humanity is 'superior' and that humans do not have the right to mistreat alien races, just that she's not sure they can be relied on as allies.

Also worth noting:
On Virmire Ashley happily volunteers to assist the Salarian team. Without any complaint she elects to go and assist them after having a conversation with their leader. Upon doing so, as the sole human in the team otherwise filled with aliens, she comfortably works well with them, taking Kirrahe's orders without complaint and if he dies on Virmire she takes over leadership and gets them to safety.
Furthermore in an elevator conversation with Tali she notes that some humans are angry at the Quarians because of the Geth invasion on Eden Prime and expresses hope that Tali helping them find Saren will change people's views of the Quarians.
Then she responds to Terra Firma quite negatively as well, having no love for their ideologies on how to deal with aliens.

[quote]- Hypocrite[/quote]

You know it never gets old to hear gamers, who are part of a medium that has killed more aliens then can ever be calculated in the name of entertainment, to suddenly get judgemental about Ashley being distrustful of aliens.
Even more hilarious to hear them start calling her a 'hypocrite'.
Still I'll assume you are talking about Ashley responding to the Terra Firma demonstration and if so let me elaborate on this:

Ashley doesn't like Terra Firma because it is an extreme party that once had good goals but is now headed by a man who believes humanity should absolutley oppose, militarily if need be, any form of alien influence.

By comparison Ashley believes that humanity should not turn down allies but that they should also be able to stand up on their own two feet just in case they don't stay as allies.

Those are two VERY DIFFERENT STANCES, from where I see it. Ashley is someone concerned about allowing aliens who do not have any loyalties to the Alliance walk around on an Alliance vessel in an Alliance mission. It's the equivilant of someone not wanting to see North Koreans wandering around freely in a top secret American base and being free to poke around the vital systems. It's a security concern.
By contrast Terra Firma just want humanity to completely isolate itself from alien races and essentially on the basis that they are afraid aliens will corrupt and destroy human culture.

If Ashley is a hyprocite for not liking Terra Firma's stance then by your logic so to is any person who doesn't think they should allow members of a foreign power into their countries secret stuff but also doesn't want to see foreign residents bullied and discriminated against in the real world based on their culture.


[quote]- Religious[/quote]

"YOU SHOULD BE MORE ACCEPTING OF OTHER CULTURES AND OTHER WAYS OF LOOKING AT THINGS, WHY IF YOU DON'T THEN YOU ARE A RACIST B*TCH!!!"

"By the way, I happen to believe in god."

"WHAT???? YOU DARE TO HAVE A RELIGIOUS FAITH??!?!?!?!?!? HOW DARE YOU, FAITH IS A HORRIBLE THING TO HAVE AND YOU ARE DEEMED A LOWER QUALITY PERSON FOR HAVING RELIGIOUS BELIFES!!"

Seriously though, does anyone else see the hypocracy in that statement? Right under your label for hypocrisy you mention Ashley being religious as a negative trait? As I discussed already, all she says is that she believes in God. Possibly because it helps her deal with death and loss of loved ones and she only ever mentions it once.
If she was a fanatic then I would agree with your stance but Ashley clearly isn't.
Just to be clear, I am an athiest myself but I am so sick of people constantly making out that for being religious Ashley is automatically labeled as a crazy fundementalist.


[quote]- A genuine b!tch. I have never called Miranda or Morrigan that but Ashley deserves it. She torments poor Liara for absolutely no reason other than her race:unsure:[/quote]

Uh huh.

So the fact that Liara is the daughter of Benezia, the second in Command of Saren i.e THE MAIN VILLAIN, has absolutely nothing to do with it? Seriously though, Ashly is nasty to Liara because she doesn't buy it, she doesn't believe at first that Liara would be so willing to help them. It is a possibility that Liara really was a spy and Ashley wasn't going to let that possibilty go away.
It's kind of like how Sam is unwilling to be trusting of Gollum right off the bat in Lord of the Rings and he turns out to be right as Gollum ends up betraying them. True, Liara didn't even up betraying them... but she COULD HAVE.

Also for the record, after Benezia dies on Noveria, during her comments on the mission Ashley suggests to Shepard to go and talk to Liara because she just lost her mum and that has to hurt. That might not justify everything Ashley says to Liara but if she really and honestly didn't care at all about Liara she wouldn't have suggested that.

Also for the record, on the Citadel when you meet Samesh Bahtia in regards to his dead wife who died on Eden Prime Ashley takes the time to comfort him. Telling him that his wife loved him very much, she says it very warmly and very compassionatley. Yes Ashley is tough and aggressive, she's military, that tends to be par of the course in situations like this. That doesn't mean she is completely devoid of compassion.

[quote]Then you save her butt on Virmire[/quote]

Yes, you choose to save her life. She was actually quite willing to sacrifice herself for the sake of the mission and certainly wasn't asking to be rescued. She's grateful that you did save her but she didn't ask to be.

[quote]and get her promoted.[/quote]

In massive golden letters:
NOPE

She got promoted of her own accord without Shepard's help. In the two years since you were out the picture she rose up the ranks by herself independant of Shepard and became Operations Chief. Her helping you out in the Saren Mission might have contributed to that fact but in the end you did not walk over to someone and suggest she get promoted, she earned that place on her own.

[quote]How does she respond to you after a 2-year reunion[/quote]

Two years of believing you were dead for good and never coming back, two years of trying to rebuild her life after her commander/lover died. Two years of grief and slow emotional recovery and mixtures of survivors guilt and uncertainty and sheer emotional hell, to suddenly have Shepard waltz back into her life and casually greet her with a:
"Hey, how have you been?"
As if he's been gone for a week on holiday or something?

How well would you handle that situation?

[quote]"You're with Cerberus trying to save humans? Get the **** away from me!"[/quote]

Translation:
"You're working with a terrorist organization that is the sworn enemy of the army you and I both served at one point. You are condoning their past history and are willing to trust them based solely on face value even though you and I both know what Cerberus is capable of. You never tried to reconnect with the Alliance and now you are telling me that the group that feed hundreds of humans to thresher maws is now working to save human colonies even though it is entirely possible that there is a much darker scheme behind all that which you aren't aware of? And nopw you are asking me to throw away my loyalties and everything I've ever worked for to join a terrorist extremist organization at the behest of someone yesterday I wasn't even sure was alive?"

Plus for the record, if romanced Ashley or Kaiden for that matter send an email apologizing for what they said. Also saying that by loyalties they are unable to go with you but that they understand what you are trying to do and hope for the best and that even though a lot has changed their feelings for you haven't.

Yes, an email isn't much but it's still something.

Seriously though, from where I stand Ashley is nowhere near as bad as people keep making her out to be.

[upsettingshorts]

Short version: Ashley isn't any of the things people with a poor understanding of the English language and bad comprehension skills say she is.



And he's right.

[casedawgz]

Oh. In that case. Yeah, I can get behind that.

[JowyXXV]

As an Akuzer I couldn't help but despise Miranda as a Cerberus ****. And Jack was way too f'n crazy for me.



Samara was hot, but, not interested. So guess that left Tali who seems sweet enough. (shrugs) But I definitely preferred Samara.

[Thompson family]

Has this turned in to the "defend Ashley's honor" thread?

[upsettingshorts]

Thompson family wrote...

Has this turned in to the "defend Ashley's honor" thread?

What's this got to do with Ashley's honor?

It's no different than if we were in a book club and people kept calling Holden Caulfield a "confident and self-assured extrovert."  

It's about describing characters thoughtfully and accurately.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[EffectedByTheMasses]

Could be that although Liara and Tali are the geeky ones, they are in through the least flawed female LIs. FOr example:



Miranda is loyal to Cerberus (fatal flaw), arrogant and decidedly borderline machiavellian.

Ash is distrustful of aliens, and religious (NOT a flaw by any means but possibly unappealing)

Liara and Tali's only flaws really is that they are not as socially adept.



These are all "human" traits and flaws and we all have them. but when you're comparing social ineptness to things like the aforementioned arrogance and distrust, I think it's pretty clear which flaws are easier to accept.



Personally, I actually like Miranda and Ashley because of these flaws which define their personalities so much better. It's like they actually seem like interesting people whom one could discuss each other's problems with and the like.



Just my two cents.

[xlavaina]

Bleh... Never really liked Ashley... Don't hate her either. She's better than Liara though, who is way too shallow for me to appreciate.

[Thompson family]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

What's this got to do with Ashley's honor?

Well, for example (emphasis added):

Yes she is distrustful of alien foreign powers. This is because she has a
lack of personal experience working with alien races and because her
family name has gone down in history as 'traitors' due to her
grandfather was the first human ever to surrender to an alien race in
the First Contact war. Hence with a blacklisted family name that has
haunted her military career her whole life, Ashley has developed an
aggressive and determined stance to regain her family honor. Even though
she should actually blame the Alliance for her family name being
shafted, she uses the Council as the blame figure because she was raised
to be a 'patriot'.

Modifié par Thompson family, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:41 .

[upsettingshorts]

Thompson family wrote...

Well, for example (emphasis added):

That's her family's honor.  It's a minor point and not one that tends to come up too much in these "defend Ashley" conversations.  

It's about how she isn't a racist and her religious faith does not qualify for the zealout/wacko labels.

[Thompson family]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Well, for example (emphasis added):

That's her family's honor.  It's a minor point and not one that tends to come up too much in these "defend Ashley" conversations.  

It's about how she isn't a racist and her religious faith does not qualify for the zealout/wacko labels.

I'm going to go sleep on this.

Modifié par Thompson family, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[implodinggoat]

I'll admit I'm partial to Liara because I found her nerdy awkwardness in ME1 to be really endearing. Though I'm somewhat of a nerd, I'm also a pretty damned exceptional public speaker so I don't think you can posit her appeal entirely to the fact that Liara's own awkwardness makes her less threatening to those who lack self confidence.

For me, I liked Liara because her nerdy awkwardness made her character feel honest.

Miranda and Ashley both put on a tough front of professionalism to hide their vulnerability, while Jack takes this to an even further extreme and puts on a ridiculous facade of overt hostility and cynicism. As a very stoic individual myself, I can relate to this. My problems are my own and I don't care for pity; but that doesn't mean I don't feel and ultimately I understand that the tough front is as much a defense mechanism as it is a sign of fortitude.

So in a weird way, I find the seemingly more vulnerable characters like Liara and Tali to really be the more confident ones. They are who they are and they don't put on an act to try and cover that up. Liara may be a nerd; but she's a nerd who'll walk through hell with you and she's comfortable with herself.

It was that honesty that really attracted me to Liara's character in ME1 and consequently depressed me when I saw that she had been transformed into a self deluded facade in ME2. Liara was living a lie, using her mother's ruthlessness as a mask to hide her true goodness not only from the outside world; but also from herself.

So Liara's honest nature which so attracted me in ME1 was destroyed in ME2 and while I can see the artistic merit in such a transformation the execution was terrible. Her sudden obsession with the Shadow Broker comes out of nowhere and clashes with everything we knew about her character in ME1. I'm hoping the new DLC gets her back to acting like the decent and honest character I loved in ME1; but its got a lot of work to do to overcome the contrived and out of character premise that its based on.

PS:  After Liara, I actually prefer Miranda to Tali since I identify with Miranda's cold professional stoicism. 

Modifié par implodinggoat, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Ski Mask Wei]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...



I am not surprised that you are in your 20s. I would venture to say that 10 years from now your views on this subject will be considerably different.

I wish I knew why so many women were eager to get married, but I suspect it is due to the desire to have children, as well as societal and family pressure. Women in our society are often led to think that regardless of our career successes, we can't truly be considered a successful person unless we are married and have children. The desire to have children is very strong in a lot of women, much like the desire for intercourse is for males. That's evolution for you, all the talk of equality between the sexes doesn't negate the fact that there are still very real biological differences between them. When it comes right down to it, we really are just fancy monkeys with on overly high opinion of ourselves.

In my own case, I have never been in a situation where I was financially dependent on a man, if anything it's been the reverse, and boy does THAT get old. I can tell you that I would be very uncomfortable with having to rely on a man for financial support, or really much of anything else. I strive to structure my life in such a way that I am dependent on myself to the greatest extent possible. Naturally this makes relationships far less desirable, since even the best relationships require a good deal of interdependence at the very least.

I guess my approach to relationships is 'what could you possibly give me that is worth giving up my freedom and autonomy'? I hate to break it to you guys, but sex isn't nearly as compelling for us as it is for you. We can go for days and days without even thinking about sex at all. I know that's hard for you guys to imagine, but it's true. So if sex isn't part of the equation, what are we left with? Our dear friends are better at comforting us when we're down, our families are better at providing financial assistance when we're in the red, and our casual acquaintances are usually better at showing us a fun time when we just need to relax. And they don't leave the toilet seat up and drink the last of the orange juice.

On the other hand, a man in a committed relationship usually gets a sexual partner on a regular basis, which is an enormous benefit to them, and often a cook/maid as well. I know women who put up with this type of situation for years without any sort of real reciprocity, only to be dumped when the man finds someone he likes better to start the cycle over with. There are numerous books and magazines and videos out there that instruct us women how to find a man, how to please a man, how to understand a man, and how to keep a man. You don't see very many men trying to find, please, understand and keep a woman. This seems completely backward to me. If I live to be a hundred years old, I will never understand this situation.
[quote]

One reason is that women have a time stamp on some of the their optimum features:  fertility and looks.  A woman has to get while the gettin' is good.  All men have to do is stack money/stuff and he'll be able to pull a woman and potentially knock her up well into his middle/old age.  It wouldn't be this way if women acted like men but y'all like your financial security and shiny things.  Men have options longer.  Another reason is that most women wait for men to approach them.  Most men aren't waiting for a women he's attracted to to notice him, he's been taught to go get it (if his confidence is up to it).   Most women are trying to bat their eyeslashes and hope the guys they want catch the signals.  Add in some societal factors like sexual double standards and soon you'll understand.

Modifié par Ski Mask Wei, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[an asari]

Ashley is hardcore so is jack tali is ok and liara ok Ashley + shepard true love

[Siansonea]

Ski Mask Wei wrote...
One reason is that women have a time stamp on some of the their optimum features:  fertility and looks.  A woman has to get while the gettin' is good.  All men have to do is stack money/stuff and he'll be able to pull a woman and potentially knock her up well into his middle/old age.  It wouldn't be this way if women acted like men but y'all like your financial security and shiny things.  Men have options longer.  Another reason is that most women wait for men to approach them.  Most men aren't waiting for a women he's attracted to to notice him, he's been taught to go get it (if his confidence is up to it).   Most women are trying to bat their eyeslashes and hope the guys they want catch the signals.  Add in some societal factors like sexual double standards and soon you'll understand.

Yeah, it's kind of unfair that we women are discarded like old socks once our looks are out the window and our wombs dry up. Ironically, men get better with age, as far as I'm concerned males in their teens 20s aren't even worth having a conversation with. Only when they get into their 30s and 40s do they become people I can tolerate or like.

We like our financial security and shiny things? How many women buy $4000 television sets? Seriously, weak.

And, uh, yeah, I'm SO not going to go chase after some man, I don't care how good-looking he thinks he is. If he doesn't even have the guts to go after something he wants, he's free to go on his way. I'm certainly not going to make it any easier for him. Guys don't really appreciate anything that just falls in their lap anyway. Every woman I have ever known who has been the aggressor in her relationship has been underappreciated by the man she fought so hard to get. Screw that, there's not a man alive that I can't live without.

[Stanley Woo]

i think that's enough off-topicness, stereotyping and generalizations for one thread. Thank you.



End of line.