272 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

MajesticJazz wrote...

kglaser wrote...

MajesticJazz, I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but I wonder if there is just no pattern, and people just...like what they like. Everyone is really so different as you say.

There are variances to everything as I said before, but there is also patterns to many things.

The unfortunate thing about stereotypes is....that....for the most part they are true. Not all of us African-Americans list Hip Hop/R&B as our most favorite musical genres....but most do. Not all Frat boys are conceited party boys....but most are.

The stereotype that male gamers are social awkward and geeky didn't just invent itself. Nobody woke up one morning and declared that a stereotype. It became a stereotype because it was the most general trait carried by male gamers during the early days of gaming (1980s/early 1990s).

I did not mean to offend anyone with this thread or even its title. I am simply asking a question, if it hits a nerve, then the individual has the option to just ignore the thread and let it die down.

The question is clouded also by subjectivity. Who self-identifies as "socially awkward". I know plenty of people who I would put in this category who are completely oblivious of their social maladroitness. And nerdiness/geekyness relies on self-reporting as well, and there are people who proclaim themselves geeks who SO aren't, and vice versa. It's an inexact science.

[Water Dumple]

Frankly, I don't think the specific cause/effect is that easy to determine, but it's certainly true that ME2's characters are designed to be likable. With such a wide variety of characters, it's clear that BioWare tried to ensure that everyone had a character whom they became particularly attached to.

That said, after having read a wide variety of opinions, I don't believe you can throw social stereotypes to explain the exact causes behind the popularity of certain game aspects, especially characters--At least, when the characters are three-dimensional. Of course the majority of users dislike Donnel Udina because he backslides on his support for Shepard in favor of political stability. But when you get to multi-sided folks like Mordin, Garrus, Legion, Jack, Thane, Tali, Wrex, and many others, the lines are blurred. I could write pages on why my favorite characters on my favorite, as many people with individually thought-out opinions probably could, but in the end, my specific reasons are probably not the same as for someone else. And that doesn't even remotely matter.

Everyone here is free to join the support groups they want, post in the character threads they want, talk about whatever characters/concepts they want; in the end, opinions don't create conflict, only responses to them do. If that means more people like Jack than Thane, those people are welcome to their opinions.

[MajesticJazz]

Siansonea II wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

kglaser wrote...

MajesticJazz, I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but I wonder if there is just no pattern, and people just...like what they like. Everyone is really so different as you say.

There are variances to everything as I said before, but there is also patterns to many things.

The unfortunate thing about stereotypes is....that....for the most part they are true. Not all of us African-Americans list Hip Hop/R&B as our most favorite musical genres....but most do. Not all Frat boys are conceited party boys....but most are.

The stereotype that male gamers are social awkward and geeky didn't just invent itself. Nobody woke up one morning and declared that a stereotype. It became a stereotype because it was the most general trait carried by male gamers during the early days of gaming (1980s/early 1990s).

I did not mean to offend anyone with this thread or even its title. I am simply asking a question, if it hits a nerve, then the individual has the option to just ignore the thread and let it die down.

The question is clouded also by subjectivity. Who self-identifies as "socially awkward". I know plenty of people who I would put in this category who are completely oblivious of their social maladroitness. And nerdiness/geekyness relies on self-reporting as well, and there are people who proclaim themselves geeks who SO aren't, and vice versa. It's an inexact science.

Well in relation to what I am pointing at. I'm not talking about geeks/nerds who claim to be, I'm talking about those who are just simply a geek, nerd, or socially awkward REGARDLESS what they may think themselves to be.

[Terror_K]

I'll admit as a nerd I find Tali and Liara's personalities more attractive. Or at least Liara's ME1 persona anyway.

[Sidac]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Well in relation to what I am pointing at. I'm not talking about geeks/nerds who claim to be, I'm talking about those who are just simply a geek, nerd, or socially awkward REGARDLESS what they may think themselves to be.

It might be better is you define your idea of socially awkward / geek / nerd so some people might be able to understand what context your coming from. Everyone has their own ideas of what is what.

Maybe i worded that wrong...dunno.

Modifié par Sidac, 01 septembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[lobi]

Liara has no personality, The VA lines are vague and sparse. Your PC either do it with a blue alien or not. There is no exploration of the relationship nor is there any room for that. It's Hollywood style, straight up. 

Modifié par lobi, 01 septembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[Thompson family]

Siansonea II wrote...

Hmmmm. This thread might hit a nerve or two, I'll wager.

Well, considering that's what it's clearly intended to do ....

Better explanations right off the top of my head:

Liara and Tali are from ME1, and the other women are relative newcomers -- except Ashley, who's a bigot about alien species. I never found her attractive at all.

When Shepard disappeared, Liara tracked down his dead body and saved it from the collectors, all at remendous personal risk,  then gave the corpse to Cerberus just on the chance they might -- might -- bring him back. She did this even though she feared and expected Shep would hate her for turning his mortal remains over to enemies.

Note that Liara does this even if Ashley was your love interest in ME1.

Boys, if that's not love, what is?

Ashley, on the other hand, pouted for a couple of years then chewed you out for not checking with her while you were dead.

The first time my Shep met Miranda. she put a bullet through the head of a long-time associate and refused to even look for survivors in the base. Then she bristled and chafed under orders. Ooooooo. That was charming. By the time she got around to expressing interest, my Shep had already figured she was very respectable for her talents and not so bad, but was not somebody you'd want to get involved with. She's clearly high-maintenance and has too many daddy issues. She's the clear choice if you're only interested in having a trophy. So she'd be much more appealing to insecure guys.

Jack is "just messed," to use her phrase.

Tali's just plain noble. She's a sympathetic figure who's not pitiful. My Shep thinks of her too much like a younger sister to be involved with her, though, and would never deliberately endanger her -- especially since Kal Reeger's clearly smitten by her and she has feelings for him. After all, he's the person she most wanted to survive on the recruitment mission.

[upsettingshorts]

Thompson family wrote...

Ashley, who's a bigot about alien species.

No she isn't.  She's a nationalist who was concerned about letting foreigners onto a state of the art military vessel, and also expressed doubts about their willingness to consider the common good when the chips were down - in favor of their own species. 

She's a cynic and a political realist.  She doesn't view humanity as inherently superior and aliens as inherently inferior - which would be what a bigot actually is at least in common usage of the word.   At best she is simply being logically apprehensive.  At worst she exhibits xenophobia, which is not the same as bigotry or racism. 

So yeah, I might have romanced Liara but the Ashley-as-racist- crap is one of my biggest pet peeves.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[MajesticJazz]

Sidac wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Well in relation to what I am pointing at. I'm not talking about geeks/nerds who claim to be, I'm talking about those who are just simply a geek, nerd, or socially awkward REGARDLESS what they may think themselves to be.

It might be better is you define your idea of socially awkward / geek / nerd so some people might be able to understand what context your coming from. Everyone has their own ideas of what is what.

Maybe i worded that wrong...dunno.

Socially Awkward - An individual excessively afraid of social interaction due to some form of peer rejection or personal choice. Presenting a form or different forms of uncomfortability when around others.

Geek - One who is perceived to be overly obsessed with one or more things including those of intellectuality, electronics, videogames etc...

Nerd - The nerd may be awkward, shy and unattractive. Therefore, a nerd is often excluded from physical activity and considered a loner by peers, or will tend to associate with like-minded people.

[cachx]

My take on it is that both Liara and Tali are very taken with you from very early. As opposed to the other LI's that require more of a pursuit, of sorts.

This comes as a major ego boost for the player ("Of course they love me, I'm awesome!").

[upsettingshorts]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The topic also relies on another assumption, that only nerdy/geeky/socially awkward males think nerdy/geeky/socially awkward females are attractive.

That might seem like an undertone but that isn't what I was trying to say. There are nerdy guys and geeky guys who do not find Liara and Tali attractive as they'll go for the other 3 women. Then there are...I guess you can say....the alpha males or the cool guys who would find Tali and Liara attractive over the other 3 women. There are variances to everything.

This is what someone said about Tali in another forum: "Perhaps because she takes the role of the purely submissive love interest (see: Liara in ME), and many people are averse to confrontation."

I still don't feel like my observation can be so casually dismissed.  It undermines the argument completely, in my opinion.

In any case, I'll address the post you reference:

There is no confrontation in this game except when you get shot down by Samara.  None.  The love interests are all available by pressing the right buttons, most of which are immediately obvious.  The kind of person you're trying to assign specific love interests to would be comfortable with any of them because they're all easy and don't actually require social interaction.

The fear people who are socially awkward experience in such situations is that of rejection.  Video game characters are - excepting the Samara example - incapable of rejecting or judging the player.  Ergo they do not trigger the same phobias that exist in the type of people you list, ergo they have no psychological comparison to real women with similar personalities, ergo the argument doesn't hold water.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[KainrycKarr]

I like Tali/Liara because I like things that are different. Same with Jack, to a lesser extent.



If I want to have a romance with an attractive human female...I'll ask my girlfriend to come over and i'll stop playing ME.



I don't like doing things in games that can be done in real life. Can't really see where a human/alien relationship goes in real life, so...

[Thompson family]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

... the Ashley-as-racist- crap is one of my biggest pet peeves.

I'm willing to use the word xenophobic, then, even though I don't see much of an improvement. No offense intended.

[Deltonax]

In ME 1, I liked Liara's personality way more then Ashley. But if you choose Tali over Miranda in Mass Effect 2, I think you are the kind of person into the geeky type of girls. Which isn't a bad thing at all.

ME1 Liara
ME2 Miranda

Modifié par Deltonax, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:07 .

[MajesticJazz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The topic also relies on another assumption, that only nerdy/geeky/socially awkward males think nerdy/geeky/socially awkward females are attractive.

That might seem like an undertone but that isn't what I was trying to say. There are nerdy guys and geeky guys who do not find Liara and Tali attractive as they'll go for the other 3 women. Then there are...I guess you can say....the alpha males or the cool guys who would find Tali and Liara attractive over the other 3 women. There are variances to everything.

This is what someone said about Tali in another forum: "Perhaps because she takes the role of the purely submissive love interest (see: Liara in ME), and many people are averse to confrontation."

Of course they aren't going to reject Shepard. I am just saying that Ashley, Miranda, and Jack comes across as being that type of female "in real life" that would reject said individual versus Tali and Liara who probably wouldn't.

I still don't feel like my observation can be so casually dismissed.  It undermines the argument completely, in my opinion.

In any case, I'll address the post you reference:

There is no confrontation in this game except when you get shot down by Samara.  None.  The love interests are all available by pressing the right buttons, most of which are immediately obvious.  The kind of person you're trying to assign specific love interests to would be comfortable with any of them because they're all easy and don't actually require social interaction.

The fear people who are socially awkward experience in such situations is that of rejection.  Video game characters are - excepting the Samara example - incapable of rejecting or judging the player.  Ergo they do not trigger the same phobias that exist in the type of people you list, ergo they have no psychological comparison to real women with similar personalities, ergo the argument doesn't hold water.

[upsettingshorts]

Thompson family wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

... the Ashley-as-racist- crap is one of my biggest pet peeves.

I'm willing to use the word xenophobic, then, even though I don't see much of an improvement. No offense intended.

Would American military personnel be comfortable letting Chinese personnel onto one of their advanced ballistic missile submarines?  Just to pick two countries.

How about confident in their allies sticking with them through thick and thin, despite vast gaps in culture and interests?

That's all Ashley was really saying, in my opinion.  She's not just some woman on the street randomly talking of her opinion on aliens to a passerby, she's a noncomissioned officer on a state of the art military vessel expressing doubts about security and political realities to her commanding officer.

Her strong dismissal of Cerberus and, more importantly Terra Firma confirms this.

MajesticJazz wrote...

Of course they aren't going to
reject Shepard. I am just saying that Ashley, Miranda, and Jack comes
across as being that type of female "in real life" that would reject
said individual versus Tali and Liara who probably wouldn't.

And my point was that the fact that they wouldn't means that it's not a true test of the player as it doesn't present the same issues, therefore it can't provide insight into their actual, real life personality.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Shotokanguy]

Theory sounds possible to me...



Dunno about other people, there are 3 pages...I don't want to read and see if there's an argument.

[mcpeepants]

are Miranda and Ashley popular because they cater to white conservatives who nearly all follow the same line of thought? I was a jock in high school and have never had trouble getting attractive women. I found Tali and Liara more interesting because they actually had something interesting to say and weren't lame. Plus Aliens are hot. Ashley wasn't that hot anyways and Jack is a tattooed freak. Miranda is obviously a smoking hot piece of arse but she's quite obnoxious. Honestly I'm hoping for more interesting love interests in ME3. I'd love to bang a hanar(j/k).

[serjwolf]

javierabegazo wrote...

I'll see where this goes in the next page or so, but if it takes a turn down the wrong road, it's getting shut down.

All tali threads start out on the wrong road

[HTTP 404]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Okay let me break this down:

Unlike Miranda, Ashley, Jack.....Tali and Liara comes across as that female who would actually find geeks/nerdy males attractive and would date them/have sex with them in real life. Compare this to Ashley, who seems like she would only want the alpha males, Miranda who ........blah blah blah in the middle........ is one main reason why a lot of ME fans enjoy them both. Ashley, Miranda, and Jack would probably ignore them/look down on them in real life but Tali and Liara would actually talk to them and possibly even screw them in real life.

thats kind of a given.  You overanalyze this too much. 

Well, people like characters they relate to.  Liara and Tali are relatable to many of us including me, I grew up at first a little awkward and introverted before high school so its a little endearing.  But I dated a few of Mirandas in my life, hot but stuck up, so I like the hunt for Miranda but would rather just hit and quit it (not an option unfortunatel).  Subject Zero is the least relatable to me attractive wise as I was never that much into punk chicks even tho i have/had punk chicks as friends. 

out of all of them, Ashley is the most attractive to me, I like me a tough attitude woman! 

[ObserverStatus]

MajesticJazz knows all! He can see into your SOUL!

[Elite Midget]

I'm kinda nerdy but I really liked Ashley. Unlike the rest of my crew she was realistic and wasen't afraid to speak her mind. Though sadly many people that didn't 'get' her thought that she was racist when she really wasen't.

[Elyvern]

You're forgetting one big thing as well, OP.

The relative ages of the LIs and the age group of gamers they are supposed to appeal to.

One of the reasons why I can never imagine Tali or Liara as my LIs is their age. Both of them are more likely to inspire "younger sibling" feelings in me than the desire to bonk them. Of course, you can also argue that people past a certain age, say let's set an arbritary age of 30, actually become socially competent and mature enough to find loving partners despite how they could be geeks previously. But even if you remain a geek for life, age still plays a part in your choices, I feel.

[HTTP 404]

Elyvern wrote...

You're forgetting one big thing as well, OP.

The relative ages of the LIs and the age group of gamers they are supposed to appeal to.

One of the reasons why I can never imagine Tali or Liara as my LIs is their age. Both of them are more likely to inspire "younger sibling" feelings in me than the desire to bonk them. Of course, you can also argue that people past a certain age, say let's set an arbritary age of 30, actually become socially competent and mature enough to find loving partners despite how they could be geeks previously. But even if you remain a geek for life, age still plays a part in your choices, I feel.

youre absolutely right, tali and liara felt more like little sister to me. Im 26 years old.  I need a woman not a girl!