263 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

He didn't say that comics were morally sound, but that he liked the ideas behind the comics code. I'm not sure why you guys are listing works that were never given the Comic Code seal as some sort of rebuttle.

[Wintermist]

Rorschach from Watchmen, now there's a hero! By Duncan's Beard, I cried when he died, seriously.

[elikal71]

Wintermist wrote...

Rorschach from Watchmen, now there's a hero! By Duncan's Beard, I cried when he died, seriously.

I quote him merely for the sake of the idea of no compromises in your ethics. I disliked his morals tho. The means NEVER is justified by the end. Never ever. You cross that line to the Dark Side... forever will it dominate your destiny. So to speak. You can't be a "little evil" just as you can't be a little bit dead. My fav hero is Batman, mainly because he never ever kills. Also Captain America, because he is a positive character, someone to look up to as rolemodel of integrity. It is so great that he has no guns, and his only weapon is a shield, a defensive weapon. At least in the old comics, dunno how it is these days where everything is dark and amoralism is trendy aka "provocative".

Tales should inspire people to be good and to feel good, not drag them down further on the road of ethical nihilism.

Modifié par elikal71, 12 novembre 2009 - 12:30 .

[Cursek]

Wintermist wrote...

Rorschach from Watchmen, now there's a hero! By Duncan's Beard, I cried when he died, seriously.

/agree

He was a good man. An extremist, but a damn good man.


As for the general discussion of how this came to comics:

This game could easily be potraid as any other comic book hero, it's only up to you to make those right decisions.

[NebulaY]

Well, yes the game is dark. yes, the characters are a bunch of hounted, depressed, righteous, selfish and emotional/social handicaped cynists. yes, there is much pain, blood, violence and death.



everyone who cant have "fun" here should simply not play it...personal viewpoints and tastes are a good thing



but imho this game is a nice step taking games into the realm of tragic literature.

the setting? its dark fantasy and fantasy with a overpowered church mostly found on medieval times..and hey..they didnt call them the "dark ages" for nothing

and the tragic? in literature, adult, violent and sometimes "sick" themes have a long history.

in macbeth three witches destory whole familys tempering with fate. in hamlet the ghost of his dead father makes hamlet a killing madman.

or going into greek tragedies where the hero goes a long way saving his love, family, country or whatever just to find that even though he may have succeded in doing his task his goal is still out of reach for him and often he breaks because of this knowledge.



in DA:O you are a part of an interactive novel very well written imo. and every good novel has an ending. you know these moments when finally closing a book and sitting there thinking about the story and the friends you made therein and how their live will go on? i guess it will be similar here ^^



if you like the story and the depth of the characters: play and enjoy it

if the story is not to your liking and you want to have that "hero undergoing great pain to finally overcome evil and beeing the shining example for all" feeling...well. DA:O is maybe not the game for you. nothing wrong with that.... there will be other great games (i guess in MA2 you will be able to save the galaxy like captain kirk again

[LordFess]

The only game that managed to depress me that I can remember similar to how th OP feels about DA:O is FallOut 3...... LoL........Although I have never been depressed outside the game world because I always abide by ONE RULE when playing video games ...... Games are Games and thats ALL they are Games...All Games are Fantasy in IMO.. I will NEVER take a game seriously no matter what is in the content..... If this game really effects you the way you have described then you definitely need to stop playing IMHO

Modifié par LordFess, 12 novembre 2009 - 01:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wintermist wrote...

Rorschach from Watchmen, now there's a hero! By Duncan's Beard, I cried when he died, seriously.

How was he a hero when he was willing to let the world go into WW3, where billions would have died, just because he doesn't feel it's right to lie to them (for their own benefit!)?
Ozymandas, whatever his name is, is the real hero. Rorschach, though was at first extremily cool and badass, turned out to be just an insecure kid, with no vision whatsoever.
It's no surprise that humanity was never led by people like hium, those are just pawns. Humanity was lead by visionaries, who knew the costs of greatness.

You can like Rorschach or any of this type if you abide by the principle of "Let Justice be done, even should the whole world perish". Which imo, is nothing more than the motto of a brainless zealot. For not only is justice relative, but to be willing to destroy everyone to for the sake of what you think is "good" is arrogance and self righteousness that only zealots can appreciate. Justice and "good" exist to serve man and not vice versa.
 
Duncan is a good hero imo. He only cares about defeating the blight, no matter the cost. Because the blight winning would be worswe than anything ducan can possibly do. Thus the utility of the Grey wArden's actions is always positive, as it increases general happiness and reduces pain, thus is what we call "good".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 novembre 2009 - 01:39 .

[Sariusmonk]

I never found the game depressing or dark,.. strange really...



I personally just felt drawn into the game, I understand WHY I must become a Grey Warden, because it's a *game* you HAVE to do things to progress the plot...



Can you imagine if you had literally endless choices, "Oh you don't have to be a Grey Warden" ... Then what are you? Just a person, the entire plot of your character would literally be a different game *altogether* it wouldn't work at all, you'd have no reason to gather the races together, other than "Hey I wanna stop the blight" not that you are someone of importance who's very purpose is to stop the blight.



Stories have plots, games have stories, sure you can get some free reign within the game, but you will always follow the main story. This one is about you overcoming the blight as a Grey Warden. It's dark in places, but there is a lot of humour, and it is always about war and fighting a "blight" you couldn't have expected many happy moments, or to have the game being majority "happy".



A game shouldn't make you feel depressed, if its because you feel robbed of your freedom in the game, go play an MMO and run around doing nothing useful. To progress in RPG's you have to defeat evil. Otherwise there is no game.

[Hizuka]

elikal71 wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

Rorschach from Watchmen, now there's a hero! By Duncan's Beard, I cried when he died, seriously.

I quote him merely for the sake of the idea of no compromises in your ethics. I disliked his morals tho. The means NEVER is justified by the end. Never ever. You cross that line to the Dark Side... forever will it dominate your destiny. So to speak. You can't be a "little evil" just as you can't be a little bit dead. My fav hero is Batman, mainly because he never ever kills. Also Captain America, because he is a positive character, someone to look up to as rolemodel of integrity. It is so great that he has no guns, and his only weapon is a shield, a defensive weapon. At least in the old comics, dunno how it is these days where everything is dark and amoralism is trendy aka "provocative".

Tales should inspire people to be good and to feel good, not drag them down further on the road of ethical nihilism.

Do not force your opinions on everyone else.  Your OPINION is that tales should always end with a happily ever after, whereas other people feel that stories should make you think.

Also, your quaint concept of the ends never justifying the means is only applicable when there is a choice.  I suppose you could allow humanity to all die at the hands of the darkspawn in order to stay true to your moral compass, but that wouldn't make for a very good story.  Personally, I find letting humanity die because I didn't want to do the 'wrong' thing to be by far the greater evil.

[Narzon]

News flash.

Bioware doesn't make comics.

[Flamin Jesus]

elikal71 wrote...

Tales should inspire people to be good and to feel good, not drag them down further on the road of ethical nihilism.

Edit: Wait, reading this again... You're pulling our legs!

Well played.

Modifié par Flamin Jesus, 12 novembre 2009 - 03:14 .

[KelsieKatt]

I quite like it. I'm not all that big of a fan of goody two shoes heroics anyhow and find it to be rather annoying and excessively unrealistic how many stories incorporate this into their characters.



Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I rather doubt that many people in the world have the motivation for any real form of heroics, or are even remotely as "nice" as they preach. I actually rather enjoy dark, depressing, tragic stories in general as it gives me a stronger appreciation for when good things actually happen.

[Dragonsword18]

LdyShayna wrote...

Dragonsword18 wrote...

elikal71

i give u advise....

dont take games to personal to urself or just dont play ...

Judging from the title of the thread, the second IS the decision that the OP finally made.  They just wanted to express their disappointment that they had to stop playing the game for this reason.

As noted later, if the OP was a big fan of previous BioWare games, I can certain understand where this comes from, personally.  While the 'rape' analogy is, I think, too much, I also think the contemptuous mockery by the other posters is similarly overboard.

i`m not judging him from title of thread...

he know what he is up to when he bought the game...
as he said before he dont buy somthing at least he read about it...

if he read about the game he knew it that he have to be gray warden to defete the archdemon...

its rly straight forward! if u dont like that kinda game u should bought it at first place...
Game show reality of morality and friendship in the game... its showing us and teach how to become a friend with someone we normaly we would talk to...

its like in real life... but this is only a game... its created to be dark plot especialy whats goin on in the game...

pls dont post such a post like this coz its only frustration from ur side that u cant play such a game for god knew reason... u taking it to serious. and to personal...which is sad.

[Dragonsword18]

LordFess wrote...

The only game that managed to depress me that I can remember similar to how th OP feels about DA:O is FallOut 3...... LoL........Although I have never been depressed outside the game world because I always abide by ONE RULE when playing video games ...... Games are Games and thats ALL they are Games...All Games are Fantasy in IMO.. I will NEVER take a game seriously no matter what is in the content..... If this game really effects you the way you have described then you definitely need to stop playing IMHO

i feel same here

just i feel deprest in one moment in DA; O ... i mean when Morigan leave after killing the archdemon... i knew that before that she will leave but yet i still fell betrayed and deprest...  but its supost to be like this...

how many we have games where most of are a happy end... 95% of game are like this... 

thats a good change...

[Cirellion_Malevar]

Elikal, what you're feeling isn't normal. I say that out of concern, not out of judgement. You might be experiencing clinical depression which is a chemical imbalance that can occur in periodic waves. When a "wave" occurs, people with clinical depression often subconscously relate what they are feeling to what is going on in their lives at the time. It doesn't make sense to the conscious mind to feel depressed without a reason, so the subconscious projects those feelings onto the surroundings and significantly influences perception. I apologize if I sound like a drug commercial, but seriously....you might want to talk to your doctor if you think this might be the case for you.

[Disz]

I would probably classify this one as "Dark/Gothic Fantasy". That may not be your thing - no harm done. Just don't play. In defense of the title, though, my box did say both "rated M" and "17+"....which usually means there's more 'adult content' than simple references. No offense intended, but I sort-of fail to see what a protracted flap about it on the forums would really solve...?



If you want see dark, go play Doom3, Troika's VTM:Bloodlines - or Requiem: Bloodymare...hell, even Call of Cthulhu..those are dark. DA:O has just about the right mix for adult fantasy, imo.

[Disz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

Rorschach from Watchmen, now there's a hero! By Duncan's Beard, I cried when he died, seriously.

How was he a hero when he was willing to let the world go into WW3, where billions would have died, just because he doesn't feel it's right to lie to them (for their own benefit!)?
Ozymandas, whatever his name is, is the real hero. Rorschach, though was at first extremily cool and badass, turned out to be just an insecure kid, with no vision whatsoever.
It's no surprise that humanity was never led by people like hium, those are just pawns. Humanity was lead by visionaries, who knew the costs of greatness.

You can like Rorschach or any of this type if you abide by the principle of "Let Justice be done, even should the whole world perish". Which imo, is nothing more than the motto of a brainless zealot. For not only is justice relative, but to be willing to destroy everyone to for the sake of what you think is "good" is arrogance and self righteousness that only zealots can appreciate. Justice and "good" exist to serve man and not vice versa.
 
Duncan is a good hero imo. He only cares about defeating the blight, no matter the cost. Because the blight winning would be worswe than anything ducan can possibly do. Thus the utility of the Grey wArden's actions is always positive, as it increases general happiness and reduces pain, thus is what we call "good".

I sort of agree with Knight, except that I think that was the author's point with Rorschach: He's an anti-hero - which means he's just as f**king psycho as the criminals he puts away - probably moreso. You don't want him jailed while he's doing good...but you don't want him running things, either.
The real issue in DA:O is that IF Duncan stops the blight, there's time to repair any damage he's done to make that happen. In a life-or-death situation, you don't have the luxury of self-righteous, moral superiority. At the same time, HOW you do things will reveal what kind of person you are. I can barely believe these points need to be explained to anyone old enough to buy this game... THAT is the depressing part.

Modifié par Disz, 12 novembre 2009 - 06:09 .

[Bedlam66]

Maria Caliban wrote...

He didn't say that comics were morally sound, but that he liked the ideas behind the comics code. I'm not sure why you guys are listing works that were never given the Comic Code seal as some sort of rebuttle.

I guess it's all a mater of opinion. I always hated the CCA as I thought it was too restricting. I'm glad no one uses it anymore.

[soteria]

Although I had a different emotional reaction than the OP, I can understand where he is coming from. Take the City Elf origin. One of your friends is murdered in front of you, you yourself have to fight and kill possibly for the first time, your husband dies, and your best friend is raped. Then, to top it off, you are taken away from everything you have known to go into the wilderness with a strange human. Then you choose between drinking darkspawn blood and possibly dying in agony or trying to run and getting killed quickly. Oh, and later on you discover that you're going to go mad and die eventually regardless, if being a magnet for darkspawn doesn't do the trick earlier.



Is that the same thing as rape? No, but it's a reasonable metaphor.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

READ ALL ABOUT IT BREAKING NEWS FROM THE BIWOARE SOCIAL SITE



Bioware's new DARK FANTASY game is actually really DARK



By far the darkest moment in the game for me was SPOILER ALERT YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED



decision to kill connor at redcliffe. I could barely go through with it but my dwarf just doesn't trust these things to magic.

[Samthorian]

A mature RPG such as this wouldn't be about happiness and good time. BioWare wanted to immerse the player emotionally into this dark corrupted world. Where you're a Grey Warden who tries and triumphs over all to save the good of mankind even if it means making some hard decisions along the way. Wouldn't you get the joy of stopping Elven slavery, a deceitful overlord ,and ending a blight? Sacrifices are made for the good of mankind.

[ForsakeN_013]

Wow, you're messed up, dude...

[elikal71]

soteria wrote...

Although I had a different emotional reaction than the OP, I can understand where he is coming from. Take the City Elf origin. One of your friends is murdered in front of you, you yourself have to fight and kill possibly for the first time, your husband dies, and your best friend is raped. Then, to top it off, you are taken away from everything you have known to go into the wilderness with a strange human. Then you choose between drinking darkspawn blood and possibly dying in agony or trying to run and getting killed quickly. Oh, and later on you discover that you're going to go mad and die eventually regardless, if being a magnet for darkspawn doesn't do the trick earlier.

Is that the same thing as rape? No, but it's a reasonable metaphor.

That is exactly what I refer to. When I found about my bad past in KOTRO, at least I could make a change. Here I am doomed and stuck with coming madness no matter what.

I guess the only fitting end would be to go evil, play "Palpatine" and pretend to sweet talk to everyone and in the end out-maneuver them all, Loghain, Alistair, the human nobles, the Church... just all. Then my Elven people can take back their power, muhahaha. XD

The point is, in almost EVERY important moment, none of the answers of choices were any I would take. For instance, in my 2nd play I played Dalish, and I would NOT have followed my pal into the cabe, I would have stopped him or left him. But it was decided for me. I would have not gone near the mirror. So many things I would have answered or done which are decided for me, and then it ends bad, and I sit at my desk and think "great, it all leads to bad because of decision I didnt do, but the game did for me." What kind of fun is that?

Or when Duncan attacked Jory. *I* would have sided with Jory.

In the end I didnt really care about Ferelden anymore.

[jones0901]

to OP

theres plenty of "good" you can do...saving the whole family at redcliff, saving the werewolves, saving the children in the mage circle. it is definitly a dark game, no one would disagree, but that makes being a good character all the more rewarding because when you do the good thing it is usually harder. also you have to turn down good loot or rewards, like reaver and blood mage... this is "empire strikes back", not phantom menace for a star wars comparison

[Jersey75639]

Sorry you hated the game, but plenty of people love it.



If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. This doesn't imply that there is anything wrong with the game any more than it implies that something is wrong with you; it's just a question of personal taste.



Move on.