315 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

filaminstrel wrote...

I would have liked to ask those bandits the same question as the tavern guys. They were evidently planning on killing you as well.

Well, they already killed a dozen refugees and that one knight from Redcliffe. Doubt your fate would be any different.

[B3taMaxxx]

mynameisdanza wrote...

Read what I said silly! I kill them every time. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy the dialogue right before he dies.

 True. In such reference, I liked Kolgrim and his zany fanaticism.

[MS-06 Zaku II]

Well, people have said this already, but there is a big difference between Bioware when it came to how good and evil is portrayed throughout their games.



Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and it's sequel pretty much had to be about a straight line between good and evil, because really that was how George Lucas envisioned it, and who is Bioware to conflict with the original vision of Lucas? (A lot of you might say otherwise but I'm just saying) No "Expanded Universe" writer as they are called can write anything about Star Wars without George's say so and approval that it fits into the story and the overal philosophy of Star Wars. The man put a TON of allusions to the Bible and the Judeo-Christian ideology throughout the movies (i.e. Anakin is born to his mother with no trace of a father and has the whole "Chosen One" thing so he's pretty much Jesus in Star Wars form, the dark side is all about temptation and fear to gather it's followers and so too is the devil and all of his evil ways, and a whole bunch of other comparisons that I can say, but I won't waste time here with preaching )



Even with Dragon Age, one really can't escape the whole Christian morality factor entirely. In Dragon Age, you have a choice to contaminate the ashes of Andraste (which again, is a mix between Saint Joan of Arc and Jesus) and as soon as Leiliana finds out, she chastises you for doing something unspeakable, i.e. you may not believe in a God or Gods, but regardless, you have just deprived millions of people who do believe the chance to behold and venerate those ashes, so aside from the act of being sacreligious, you have in essence stolen something of BIG importance from the people who want those ashes because they truly believe. And then Leiliana tries to kill you for it out of her fervor and sadness over the act.



Mass Effect really only has Biblical references in the form of names (i.e. the Lazerus Project, Christ raising Lazerus from the dead, and the Geth, Legion, who is named after a passage where a demon identifies himself as such because he is many and not just a singular demonic entity, and that he corrupted a man and yet again Jesus saves the day, excorsises it and the demon runs off and finds another host to possess and it possesses an entire herd of cattle and they all run off a cliff, but in the end one of God's flock is saved.)



Ok, going away from the Bible now.... (I know some of you may not like it when people talk Bible, so I'll just move on.)



With Jade Empire, I found it very hard to see the whole "ambiguous morality" mechanic with the Open Palm and the Closed Fist, they just seemed like another way of saying Good and Evil again when I played through the game (I mean as an example, killing people for no other reason than they are in you're way just seems plain evil to me, not really a "they are weak, I am strong" sort of thing in my eyes) But I do see the concept of it all, one is a "serve the masses no matter what the sacrifice to ones self" and the other is "many are weak, serve only the strong and yourself and it will make you and inspire everyone around you to be stronger"



Mass Effect plays this concept a bit better with the Paragon and Renagade options, in those games I had a much easier time of seeing the different Altruistic and Machiavellian paths of acting towards others. But some points in the game just felt like they were borderline evil: like the time where you go up to a Batarian gunship mechanic in Omega, and you can kill him with his own electric wrench thing, that to me was evil. A "Renagade" option would have been to toss him around a little bit and intimidate him to run away, not kill him outright.



So in short, I do believe that Bioware does a good job with portraying Good and Evil, however I am not too keen on the whole "ambiguous morality" thing, I get enough of that in the real world, I go to games to escape that not face more realism in morality! I suppose I just don't like the fact that life is nothing but shades of grey, and that I wish it was more black and white so that the world would be easier to help out.



Sorry about this being so long, I think a lot about these things in my spare time, pathetic I know...

[Marzillius]

TS2Aggie wrote...

The thing with realistic evil is that it can easily be mistaken for being good, from a "certain point of view". I think they do evil just fine. After all, look at how many people sympathize with and even defend evil acts (in the games) right here on these forums.

Err... as far as I can see, 90% of the forum population plays Paragon in Mass Effect.

[nhsk]

There is no evil in DA:O - There is only victory and defeat, and since the Warden wins he/she gets to take the moral high ground.

[Dave of Canada]

Marzillius wrote...

Err... as far as I can see, 90% of the forum population plays Paragon in Mass Effect.

I play Paragon because it creates more plot threads than simply killing everything.

[Marzillius]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

Err... as far as I can see, 90% of the forum population plays Paragon in Mass Effect.

I play Paragon because it creates more plot threads than simply killing everything.

Thanks for making my point more believable.

[Dave of Canada]

Marzillius wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

Err... as far as I can see, 90% of the forum population plays Paragon in Mass Effect.

I play Paragon because it creates more plot threads than simply killing everything.

Thanks for making my point more believable.

No problemo.

[Anarya]

I play Paragon because being mean to imaginary people makes me feel guilty.



Yes I *am* that big a dork.

[Anarya]

MariSkep wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I play Paragon because being mean to imaginary people makes me feel guilty.

Yes I *am* that big a dork.

you're not the only one. 

We'll go join Sten in the Softie Club. I hear they have cookies.

[ErichHartmann]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

Err... as far as I can see, 90% of the forum population plays Paragon in Mass Effect.

I play Paragon because it creates more plot threads than simply killing everything.

Senseless mass murder is pointless in any game. :innocent: 

[Lord_Valandil]

Anarya wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I play Paragon because being mean to imaginary people makes me feel guilty.

Yes I *am* that big a dork.

you're not the only one. 

We'll go join Sten in the Softie Club. I hear they have cookies.

Ohhh...I want cookies

[Ortaya Alevli]

A character who doesn't let moral concerns and honor hold them back is more welcome than M. Bison-style evil overlord cliche in my opinion. BioWare tried that in KotOR and the main character ended up a bully instead of classic evil (I'm not talking about the dark side ending, but the choices you make mid-game). They tried that In games with FRP settings as well; you know, evil alignment is an inherent part in this case that needs to be worked on. But evil just for the evilness' sake just won't work. It comes off stupid and impractical. Having ulterior motives and trying to reach a goal requires subtlety and maintaining appearances most of the time, more so than a goody-two-shoes character needs to. A decent example of evil in KotOR is triple-crossing Uthar and Yutura, eliminating both in the process. A terrible example, well, take your pick.

I would dare say BioWare needs to work on the evil aspect a bit more. Letting the blood mage sacrifice slaves to grant you power is a good maneuver, but only when it's worth it. Same with defiling Andastre's ashes. What an evil Warden would do...if the reward was satisfactory. Otherwise it's more like, "Mwahaha look at me, I'm da evul. And yeah, ladies, turn on me just like that. Because, you know, I'm da evul." My evil Warden (or any other BioWare game protagonist for that matter) would go for winning the crowd, not making enemies out of followers in sheer stupidity, but he wouldn't shy away from sacrificing allies if it serves his plans better.

[Marzillius]

Anarya wrote...

I play Paragon because being mean to imaginary people makes me feel guilty.

Yes I *am* that big a dork.

That's not dorky. That's a sign that you might have more compassion than other people.

[nhsk]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

A character who doesn't let moral concerns and honor hold them back is more welcome than M. Bison-style evil overlord cliche in my opinion. BioWare tried that in KotOR and the main character ended up a bully instead of classic evil (I'm not talking about the dark side ending, but the choices you make mid-game). They tried that In games with FRP settings as well; you know, evil alignment is an inherent part in this case that needs to be worked on. But evil just for the evilness' sake just won't work. It comes off stupid and impractical. Having ulterior motives and trying to reach a goal requires subtlety and maintaining appearances most of the time, more so than a goody-two-shoes character needs to. A decent example of evil in KotOR is triple-crossing Uthar and Yutura, eliminating both in the process. A terrible example, well, take your pick.
I would dare say BioWare needs to work on the evil aspect a bit more. Letting the blood mage sacrifice slaves to grant you power is a good maneuver, but only when it's worth it. Same with defiling Andastre's ashes. What an evil Warden would do...if the reward was satisfactory. Otherwise it's more like, "Mwahaha look at me, I'm da evul. And yeah, ladies, turn on me just like that. Because, you know, I'm da evul." My evil Warden (or any other BioWare game protagonist for that matter) would go for winning the crowd, not making enemies out of followers in sheer stupidity, but he wouldn't shy away from sacrificing allies if it serves his plans better.

Evil would be to keep the Urn, kill genitivi and make personal use of the ashes.

[Heimdall]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Anarya wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I play Paragon because being mean to imaginary people makes me feel guilty.

Yes I *am* that big a dork.

you're not the only one. 

We'll go join Sten in the Softie Club. I hear they have cookies.

Ohhh...I want cookies

COOKIES!

[SteveGarbage]

eucatastrophe wrote...

I can't think of any decision in DA:O that was outright evil other than the stupid Connor ones.

Go through the entire quest line for one of the Dwarven king candidates and then give the crown to his opponent. It's what I did when I played my male Aeducan. I went through with Bhelen the whole time then backstabbed him at the last minute and crowned Harrowmont. TAKE THAT FOR VENGEANCE!

If that doesn't qualify as evil, I don't know what does.

Modifié par SteveGarbage, 02 septembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Kiely]

In throne of Bhall you could seize the thrown to become the God of Murder... I think that's as close as Bioware has come to real evil.

[Mecha Tengu]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

Err... as far as I can see, 90% of the forum population plays Paragon in Mass Effect.

I play Paragon because it creates more plot threads than simply killing everything.

Senseless mass murder is pointless in any game. :innocent: 

????

[SteveGarbage]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

Err... as far as I can see, 90% of the forum population plays Paragon in Mass Effect.

I play Paragon because it creates more plot threads than simply killing everything.

Senseless mass murder is pointless in any game. :innocent: 

????

I think you pretty much just proved his point.

[Rzepik2]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

Err... as far as I can see, 90% of the forum population plays Paragon in Mass Effect.

I play Paragon because it creates more plot threads than simply killing everything.

Senseless mass murder is pointless in any game. :innocent: 

No it's not. It was a perfect way to get "mazed" in Torment, get some exp and items. Also annoying Lady of Pain is fun... If you know when to stop.

The best thing is that you are able to be a subtle villain as well.

[DarkSpiral]

Collider wrote...

Dragon age? Hero and Anti-Hero.

Kind of. Certain options in DA:O seemed pretty...out there. Like killing the wounded soldier in the Korcari Wilds. Obviously evil is subjective, but I can't think of a good reason for killing that soldier besides being a psychopath.

Pragmatic mercy.  He was heavily wounded by the darkspawn and infected with the taint.  Bandaging him up seemd like a nice thing to do, but what you've actually done is consign him to a slow death, and possibly becoming a ghoul.

No, that isn't actually an option you can take via the dialogue choices, but it could be a valid reason to kill the poor bastard.

I rather liked the "good" vs "evil" options in the game, taken as a whole.   Sure there were soem dialoge choices that were wtf moments, but they were fewer than in many games I've played in the past where "evil" only really meant "raging psychopath."

[Russalka]

Not every horrible deed done by the Warden can be explained by just pragmatism.