Upsettingshorts wrote...
phatpat63 wrote...
Facepalm.
...go on.
You were stating amorality is not equivalent to evil, right? If so, I completely agree with you.
Why are we assuming the Shadow Broker is evil?
Débuté par
Guest_Elithranduil_*
, sept. 02 2010 05:03
#26
Guest_Elithranduil_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 06:33
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You were stating amorality is not equivalent to evil, right? If so, I completely agree with you.
Retour en haut
#27
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 06:38
Zulu_DFA
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TSB sold Thane to the Batarians... Woa!.. woa!..
#28
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 06:44
Skyblade012
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Elithranduil wrote...
Skyblade012 wrote...
He struck me as "evil" from the very beginning. Turning a blind eye to morality is itself an evil position. When you work alongside the most villainous entities in existence, you cannot acquit yourself because you do not get your own hands bloody. The Shadow Broker barters in information, selling always to the highest bidder. He has worked alongside the Collectors and Saren, and from what we're told in ME1, virtually every other power block in the galaxy, good or ill. He has undoubtedly been a contributing member to horrific acts, supplying intel that fuels the strikes.
You can attempt to justify his collaboration however you want, but it is little more than excuses. How many billions must he help murder for whatever "good" motives he claims? Even if he tried to rationalize his actions (which he never bothered with), how could anyone trust someone who can, and does, change sides with the flip of a coin?
Quite rich, but morally bankrupt. I've been hoping for a chance to rid the galaxy of him since I first heard about him.
I'll be curious to hear what the Shadow Broker has to say on the matter. Sure, he (or she) may have murdered billions indirectly out of self-interest. But it is this same self-interest that should naturally forbid them from legitimately conspiring with the Reapers and Collectors. The Reapers have a monopoly on murdering billions (if not trillions) of sentients. He won't have anybody left to profit from or any information source if he helps the Reapers.
It's why I believe he was acting in some sort of double-agent capacity - selling the information he acquired working with the Collectors to the Citadel races behind the Reapers backs. The Shadow Broker seems like a person who would plan for all contingencies, and cover their ass for every possible eventuality.
Look I'm not saying they deserve to live. Just that they aren't some sort of primitive Harbinger-controlled drone that exists simply to further the Reaper's evil plans of mass extinction. I'm sick of that angle people keep presenting - I will be so sad if it turns out to be the case.
Your thread asked whether he was evil, not whether he was another mindless prop for the Reaper's plans for galactic annihilation.
Nothing we have seen of the Shadow Broker gives any indication of any positive moral stance. He may have his own plans, and those may be nicer than the Reaper's plans, and may even involve stopping the Reapers. That doesn't make him a good guy, just like TIM's views that the Reapers must be stopped doesn't make him a good guy.
You were stating amorality is not equivalent to evil, right? If so, I completely agree with you.
Equivalency of any moral system is hard to explain with any sense of accuracy or consensus. Is the soldier who shoots a civilian more or less evil than a dictator who gives the order to shoot the civilian? The two aren't necessarily equivalent, but that doesn't mean that only one of them is evil.
#29
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 06:56
War Houndoom
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@Skyblade - Logically speaking the moral choice isn't always the right choice, Bioware has said this before. Remember the hostage situation in Bringing Down The Sky? The right choice was to bring in the Barterian and let the hostages die. Even though morally speaking the right choice would have been saving the hostages.
#30
Guest_pena11fs_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:01
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ME1 lead you to believe that Cerberus was ultimately evil and if you explored the large amount of side quests available in ME1 than you got examples of the extent of Cerberus' motives and techniques. Or so you thought, i ME2 a different point of view was shown to the player as far as the image of Cerberus and it was a more intimate and justifiable one. I believe the same can be said for the case of the shadow broker except the image of the shadow broker is essentially flipped between ME1 and ME2, in ME1 he is more mysterious and very little is known of his methods. That is not the case in ME2 as you learn more in depth in the harsh and brutal methods of the shadow broker, however you also learn how dangerous and calculating he is. Yes he deals with the collectors and yes he also sells information that can cripple governments and organizations to the highest bidder. Think if there was no shadow broker would the galaxy be the same? I believe there would not be such a balance of power that the shadow broker presents. So all in all I do not see the shadow broker as evil per say, I just believe he is a brilliant (whatever he is) and he is not biased in anyway. That brings me to my last question. How can you have a view point of someone as evil if they do not belong to any clan, religion, faction etc?
#31
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:05
upsettingshorts
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Elithranduil wrote...
You were stating amorality is not equivalent to evil, right? If so, I completely agree with you.
Yes. My brevity was intended to be provocative. Absolute morality is a concept best left to the theologians. Those of us mortals must be content to wade through the shades of gray.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:09 .
#32
Guest_Elithranduil_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:14
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Skyblade012 wrote...
Elithranduil wrote...
Skyblade012 wrote...
He struck me as "evil" from the very beginning. Turning a blind eye to morality is itself an evil position. When you work alongside the most villainous entities in existence, you cannot acquit yourself because you do not get your own hands bloody. The Shadow Broker barters in information, selling always to the highest bidder. He has worked alongside the Collectors and Saren, and from what we're told in ME1, virtually every other power block in the galaxy, good or ill. He has undoubtedly been a contributing member to horrific acts, supplying intel that fuels the strikes.
You can attempt to justify his collaboration however you want, but it is little more than excuses. How many billions must he help murder for whatever "good" motives he claims? Even if he tried to rationalize his actions (which he never bothered with), how could anyone trust someone who can, and does, change sides with the flip of a coin?
Quite rich, but morally bankrupt. I've been hoping for a chance to rid the galaxy of him since I first heard about him.
I'll be curious to hear what the Shadow Broker has to say on the matter. Sure, he (or she) may have murdered billions indirectly out of self-interest. But it is this same self-interest that should naturally forbid them from legitimately conspiring with the Reapers and Collectors. The Reapers have a monopoly on murdering billions (if not trillions) of sentients. He won't have anybody left to profit from or any information source if he helps the Reapers.
It's why I believe he was acting in some sort of double-agent capacity - selling the information he acquired working with the Collectors to the Citadel races behind the Reapers backs. The Shadow Broker seems like a person who would plan for all contingencies, and cover their ass for every possible eventuality.
Look I'm not saying they deserve to live. Just that they aren't some sort of primitive Harbinger-controlled drone that exists simply to further the Reaper's evil plans of mass extinction. I'm sick of that angle people keep presenting - I will be so sad if it turns out to be the case.
Your thread asked whether he was evil, not whether he was another mindless prop for the Reaper's plans for galactic annihilation.
Nothing we have seen of the Shadow Broker gives any indication of any positive moral stance. He may have his own plans, and those may be nicer than the Reaper's plans, and may even involve stopping the Reapers. That doesn't make him a good guy, just like TIM's views that the Reapers must be stopped doesn't make him a good guy.You were stating amorality is not equivalent to evil, right? If so, I completely agree with you.
Equivalency of any moral system is hard to explain with any sense of accuracy or consensus. Is the soldier who shoots a civilian more or less evil than a dictator who gives the order to shoot the civilian? The two aren't necessarily equivalent, but that doesn't mean that only one of them is evil.
Firstly, you say that the Shadow Broker believing the Reapers should be stopped does not make them a good person. I agree. My point was they are not an evil person and are not in league with the Reapers or Collectors. They are simply making a living off interstellar politics and acting out of self-interest. This self-interest in preserving their client base happens to align with the overall 'good' goal of defeating the Reapers. It is why I find it so difficult to believe the Broker is just working for the Reapers for evil's sake. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by assisting the Collectors and the Reapers. They would clearly be aware of the harmful intent of those beings via their information network.
Secondly, amoralism is the complete absence of moral beliefs. Absence of good and evil intent. An amoral person cannot be an evil person. An evil person is an evil person. Both the soldier who fires the shot and the dictator who gives the order to shoot are evil or a mix in between. Neither could be said to be amoral.
Modifié par Elithranduil, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:15 .
#33
Guest_Elithranduil_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:19
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Upsettingshorts wrote...
Elithranduil wrote...
You were stating amorality is not equivalent to evil, right? If so, I completely agree with you.
Yes. My brevity was intended to be provocative. Absolute morality is a concept best left to the theologians. Those of us mortals must be content to wade through the shades of gray.
Well said. People are getting carried away with hypotheticals and semantics. My intent was to discuss the absurdity of the Shadow Broker being portrayed as a character like this:
http://t0.gstatic.co...villain.gif&t=1
When in fact he should be much deeper and not just some pawn of the Reapers.
Modifié par Elithranduil, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:21 .
#34
Guest_pena11fs_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:23
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Elithranduil i think you should take a look at my post
#35
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:25
AntiChri5
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He sells secrets which end lives to the highest bidder.
A good example of this is him selling Thanes identity to the slavers who went after his wife as payback.
This is evil.
Does indirectly working with the Reapers make it evil? No, just suicidal.
Selling Shep's corpse to the Collectors does not make it a moustache twirling villian, it makes it Shepard's enemy. And that is what matters. It is Shepard's enemy, and attempted to kill Shepard's ally acting in Shepard's best interest.
So Shepard is going to kill it.
A good example of this is him selling Thanes identity to the slavers who went after his wife as payback.
This is evil.
Does indirectly working with the Reapers make it evil? No, just suicidal.
Selling Shep's corpse to the Collectors does not make it a moustache twirling villian, it makes it Shepard's enemy. And that is what matters. It is Shepard's enemy, and attempted to kill Shepard's ally acting in Shepard's best interest.
So Shepard is going to kill it.
#36
Guest_Elithranduil_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:26
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pena11fs wrote...
ME1 lead you to believe that Cerberus was ultimately evil and if you explored the large amount of side quests available in ME1 than you got examples of the extent of Cerberus' motives and techniques. Or so you thought, i ME2 a different point of view was shown to the player as far as the image of Cerberus and it was a more intimate and justifiable one. I believe the same can be said for the case of the shadow broker except the image of the shadow broker is essentially flipped between ME1 and ME2, in ME1 he is more mysterious and very little is known of his methods. That is not the case in ME2 as you learn more in depth in the harsh and brutal methods of the shadow broker, however you also learn how dangerous and calculating he is. Yes he deals with the collectors and yes he also sells information that can cripple governments and organizations to the highest bidder. Think if there was no shadow broker would the galaxy be the same? I believe there would not be such a balance of power that the shadow broker presents. So all in all I do not see the shadow broker as evil per say, I just believe he is a brilliant (whatever he is) and he is not biased in anyway. That brings me to my last question. How can you have a view point of someone as evil if they do not belong to any clan, religion, faction etc?
Excellent points. For all we know the Shadow Broker keeps Turians, Salarians, Asari and Humans in an equilibrium of sorts so that one does not have the upper hand for an extended period. Ironically the Shadow Broker could be an agent of peace and stability.
One thing is certain - he is not evil. He's not a Reaper in disguise. He may not be good - but who really is perfect - especially in the mass effect galaxy?
#37
Guest_Elithranduil_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:27
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AntiChri5 wrote...
He sells secrets which end lives to the highest bidder.
A good example of this is him selling Thanes identity to the slavers who went after his wife as payback.
This is evil.
Does indirectly working with the Reapers make it evil? No, just suicidal.
Selling Shep's corpse to the Collectors does not make it a moustache twirling villian, it makes it Shepard's enemy. And that is what matters. It is Shepard's enemy, and attempted to kill Shepard's ally acting in Shepard's best interest.
So Shepard is going to kill it.
How was the Shadow Broker supposed to know Shepard could be revived through the Lazarus Project? That was Extra Top Secret Stuff.
Maybe they thought trading a dead body for valuable information and technology from the Collectors was a good trade because it would help even the odds when the Galaxy inevitably had to fight them off.
#38
Guest_pena11fs_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:30
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my point exactly while i do not agree with his motives i do believe that the shadow broker does present balance to the galaxy in some degree. However for someone to believe the shadow broker is a reaper is absurd
#39
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:33
upsettingshorts
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He sells secrets to the highest bidder.
But greed and ambition are sins, you say.
And we're back to theology. Absolute morality cannot exist without absolute moral authority, and no human concept other than that of God can define good and evil. Nothing else can have the same authority, nothing else can claim to have enough perspective, nothing else can even claim the right of judgement. That's how religion wields moral authority.
Concepts like good and evil are articles of belief.
That doesn't rule out ethical debates over organizations like Cerberus or the Shadow Broker, but like Elithranduil is trying to say, that requires more nuance and critical thought.
But greed and ambition are sins, you say.
And we're back to theology. Absolute morality cannot exist without absolute moral authority, and no human concept other than that of God can define good and evil. Nothing else can have the same authority, nothing else can claim to have enough perspective, nothing else can even claim the right of judgement. That's how religion wields moral authority.
Concepts like good and evil are articles of belief.
That doesn't rule out ethical debates over organizations like Cerberus or the Shadow Broker, but like Elithranduil is trying to say, that requires more nuance and critical thought.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:37 .
#40
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 07:50
Spartindude
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Honestly, if the SB is such a big guy in the galaxy and with ties to pretty much EVERYTHING, you'd expect his lair to be nigh in-penetrable. You really think that BW is gonna send you into somebody like that's fortress? Obviously not. It would be like letting Shepard die at the end of ME2... With no resurrection.
The SB could or could not be Reaper or even Geth for all that it matters, the SB could be a collective of people all working under the title of the "Shadow Broker" but who he/she/what is, is not the question. BW is giving us a choice to assume something. Don't do it,
Think about the word ASSUME
"When you assume something, you make an ASS of U and ME"
The SB could or could not be Reaper or even Geth for all that it matters, the SB could be a collective of people all working under the title of the "Shadow Broker" but who he/she/what is, is not the question. BW is giving us a choice to assume something. Don't do it,
Think about the word ASSUME
"When you assume something, you make an ASS of U and ME"
#41
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 08:01
AntiChri5
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@Elithranduil:
It's intentions do not matter.
It made an enemy of Shepard, and Liara, who was acting in Shepard's best interest.
Any enemy of Shepards will die, and any enemy of my allies will die.
Are all the mercenaries we spend most of our time killing evil?
Maybe, maybe not, but what they are is enemies of one of my crew.
It's intentions do not matter.
It made an enemy of Shepard, and Liara, who was acting in Shepard's best interest.
Any enemy of Shepards will die, and any enemy of my allies will die.
Are all the mercenaries we spend most of our time killing evil?
Maybe, maybe not, but what they are is enemies of one of my crew.
#42
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 08:03
cihimi
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he, she, them, or it is just another entity to destroy. at the very least, control. we will see soon enough....
#43
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 08:14
snfonseka
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How SB knows that collectors are working for the reapers?
#44
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 08:14
Nicodemus
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Or we could be missing the point and that the SB is an organisation that just has had it's head man become corrupt. There is nothing to say that the orginisation won't still be active with a different person in charge by the end of it.. and perhaps that is the decision we might be helping to decide. Next Tuesday is when we'll be finding out..
#45
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 08:20
upsettingshorts
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Or maybe he's just an information broker who made the mistake of making enemies of someone dangerous (Liara) with very powerful friends (Shepard).
Why does good or evil or - for the love of God, Reapers - have to enter into it?
Why does good or evil or - for the love of God, Reapers - have to enter into it?
#46
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 08:28
snfonseka
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Upsettingshorts wrote...
Or maybe he's just an information broker who made the mistake of making enemies of someone dangerous (Liara) with very powerful friends (Shepard).
Why does good or evil or - for the love of God, Reapers - have to enter into it?
or maybe its an AI (similar to GOTO in KOTOR 2), so because of this it doesn't have any attachements for living beings....
#47
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 09:19
CroGamer002
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Shadow Broker is evil but you do make valid point.
I might spare Shadow Broker with my canon Paragon Shepard.
I might spare Shadow Broker with my canon Paragon Shepard.
#48
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 10:13
fongiel24
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snfonseka wrote...
How SB knows that collectors are working for the reapers?
This point throws a wrench in the argument that the Shadow Broker couldn't possibly want to work towards his own annihilation. The Shadow Broker doesn't have access to any information that proves a connection between the Reapers and the Collectors. Cerberus and Shepard are just chasing the Collector/Reaper connection on a hunch. When Shepard asks TIM how he knows they're connected, TIM tells him "the data is all there" but this language suggests TIM is just attempting to connect dots.
If TIM had hard evidence connecting the Reapers to the Collectors, he has no reason to hide it from Shepard. We only get more solid data suggesting a Reaper/Collector connection later on in ME2, first on the "abandoned" Collector ship when EDI discovers the Prothean/Reaper connection and later on when EDI locates the Collector base in the galactic core. The Shadow Broker doesn't have any of this intel. The Shadow Broker may very well believe his deal with the Collectors is just an ordinary business transaction.
#49
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 10:32
A.N.A.N
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Perhpas the Collectors/Reapers promised the Shadow Broker something. Immunity? Immortality? Who knows, but because we do not know the nature of the deal, labelling the Shadow Broker 'idiotic' for siding with them is premature. It may be a perfectly logical and justifiable reason.
#50
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 10:37
snfonseka
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AntiChri5 wrote...
He sells secrets which end lives to the highest bidder.
A good example of this is him selling Thanes identity to the slavers who went after his wife as payback.
This is evil.
Does indirectly working with the Reapers make it evil? No, just suicidal.
Selling Shep's corpse to the Collectors does not make it a moustache twirling villian, it makes it Shepard's enemy. And that is what matters. It is Shepard's enemy, and attempted to kill Shepard's ally acting in Shepard's best interest.
So Shepard is going to kill it.
It is Shepard's enemy, then it is /will be, dead !
A good SB is a dead SB!
