134 réponses à ce sujet

[krasnoarmeets]

Evil?

Take weapons. Go to neighbouring territory. Murder all who could possibly offer serious resistance. Round remaining people up and sort them into groups according to suitability for different tasks. Put those fit enough to work mining diamonds so you can keep your operation running. Keep a group of women in captivity to help maintain your men's loyalty and morale - also useful for performing domestic tasks. Children kept in pens. Can be sold on as slaves, some kept around to run errands. Anyone who is too old or weak to be useful is killed.

Selling these people the weapons when you know what they will do with them is not a neutral act nor is supplying them with information on who is going to offer them serious resistance.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:17 .

[upsettingshorts]

Those are examples, not a definition.

And I fail to connect any of them to anything I am aware of the Shadow Broker has done.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:22 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

The information that the Shadow Broker deals with includes that which usually is considered to be gathered by security agencies. Yet, the SB is an independent organization outside of any government with no controllable loyalty to any of the governments and the SB will not be held accountable for its actions. That works fine if the SB is truly objective and has the greater galactic good in mind. However, they have shown that they also deal with the collectors. It's obvious that the collectors/reapers are a threat to all and thus the SB cannot be trusted anymore. The initial idea was cute, but because of their dealings with the collectors they have become a threat to the galactic stability and thus needs to be taken out. That has nothing to do with the SB being evil or not, nor with Liara holding a grudge against them.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:36 .

[krasnoarmeets]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Those are examples, not a definition.

And I fail to connect any of them to anything I am aware of the Shadow Broker has done.

An example of evil is the perfect definition, a picture paints a thousand words. Causing harm, destruction or misfortune, either through indifference or malicious intent. Either are reprehensible.
'Aware of' is the key phrase in your statement there.What you are aware of with regard to the shadow broker's actions is much like an iceberg, very little has been witnessed. The latter example relates to the shadow broker: 'supplying them with information on who is going to offer them serious resistance.'

[Aradace]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

because he upset liara, a rommance option and a popular character

jumping to conclusions = he iz evil

Leading to folks using their emotions to judge a situation instead of facts and rational thought.  Sad lot those people who let their judgement get clouded so easily

[ExtremeOne]

Elithranduil wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Elithranduil wrote...

Well I agree he can be ruthless - but that does not necessarily make him the enemy of all sentient life in the Galaxy.

If you do anything to get in the way of Shepard's mission to stop the reapers, you become an enemy of all sentient life in the galaxy.

That sounds like Anakin Skywalker logic. Would you feel the same way about Ambassador Udina? He's just a run-of-the-mill politician trying to do what he thinks is right. He's not an evil dude per se.

  


I like Anakin Skywalker's logic because its pure ruthless. and every single member of the alliance is a enemy of my Shepard. 

[Sajuro]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Elithranduil wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Elithranduil wrote...

Well I agree he can be ruthless - but that does not necessarily make him the enemy of all sentient life in the Galaxy.

If you do anything to get in the way of Shepard's mission to stop the reapers, you become an enemy of all sentient life in the galaxy.

That sounds like Anakin Skywalker logic. Would you feel the same way about Ambassador Udina? He's just a run-of-the-mill politician trying to do what he thinks is right. He's not an evil dude per se.

  


I like Anakin Skywalker's logic because its pure ruthless. and every single member of the alliance is a enemy of my Shepard. 

You do realize that Anakin Skywalker logic left him an empty husk of a man with the love of his life dead, bruned up by lava, and more machine then man. Probably the best moment in his life since he became a Sith was when he got to see Luke's face one last time with his real eyes.

[lovgreno]

The way to suceed is to make more allies than enemies wich is something the Shadow Broker, Cerberus and Anakin Skywalker failed to realise.

Modifié par lovgreno, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[ArcanistLibram]

I don't think the Shadow Broker is evil. I just think he's another poor bastard who happened to get in Shepard's way.

[Moiaussi]

ExtremeOne wrote...

I like Anakin Skywalker's logic because its pure ruthless. and every single member of the alliance is a enemy of my Shepard. 

Anakin's logic led to the support of an oppressive dictatorship which was completely unneccessary, having been created to fight a trumped up straw man of an enemy.

The Jedi needed serious reform, but not so badly that the rest of the galaxy had to be punished for their failings.

[nelly21]

I think most guys will believe anything a hot blue alien tells them.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

It's implied by Feron in ME Redemption that SB's deal with the Collectors was atypical of him (Feron was shocked when he found out about it).  I'd also think that exposing himself and his operation to Liara and Cerberus was pretty atypical as well, since his operation has run smoothly for decades. 

Anderson also tells you in ME1 that the SB sells to the highest bidder and never picks sides.  Thus everyone is forced to play his game, and he can create new business simply by playing one side against the other.  Now he's picked a fight with a power hungry demagogue with unlimited resources, the daughter of an infamous matriarch, and most dangerous Spectre in the galaxy.  He apparently TRIES to kill Shepard in the LotSB trailer, but doesn't quite manage it, and he has had two years to kill Liara but hasn't done so.  Nor has he retaliated against TIM, that we know of.

If the Shadow Broker were, say, a salarian that would make him very old.  When he dies, his organization will either fall apart, or someone else will take up his title; either way, he just disappears.  Maybe he wants to go out with a bang, of the kind only Shepard can deliver.

Modifié par Gyroscopic_Trout, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:10 .

[Cypher0020]

this has probably been said before but....



he/she/it/w/e got put on my hit list when they were going to sell Shep's corpse to become a reaper slushie.....



oh... and deals in illegal trading, captured/tortures Feron/harms Liara.....



list goes on....

[Inthatplace]

Cypher0020 wrote...

this has probably been said before but....

he/she/it/w/e got put on my hit list when they were going to sell Shep's corpse to become a reaper slushie.....

oh... and deals in illegal trading, captured/tortures Feron/harms Liara.....

list goes on....

So he hurt your friend and a friend of said friend. That's personal, it doesn't mean SB is evil.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

Elithranduil wrote...

Or alternatively..

http://masseffect.wi...i/League_of_One

Some recently declassified documents, however, have suggested there may have been a thirteenth member who eluded the salarian military.

Interesting. Even if it is not the SB, I hope this plays into the future ME universe somehow... in a tasteful manner. 

[PARAGON87]

Elithranduil wrote...

Or alternatively..

http://masseffect.wi...i/League_of_One

Some recently declassified documents, however, have suggested there may have been a thirteenth member who eluded the salarian military.

If you read the backhistory of Mass Effect, this happened when the salarians and asari had first contact with each other, roughly 2,500 years ago. 

Salarians can barely reach the age of forty. 

So I would discount the League of One would have anything to do with this, because they are long dead.

Modifié par PARAGON87, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[didymos1120]

PARAGON87 wrote...
If you read the backhistory of Mass Effect, this happened when the salarians and asari had first contact with each other, roughly 2,500 years ago. 

Salarians can barely reach the age of forty. 

So I would discount the League of One would have anything to do with this, because they are long dead.

True, but we don't know how long the SB has been around, or if it's always been the same person.  If the Dread Pirate Roberts theory is correct, then it's an inherited position and the original, founding SB could have been the rumored 13th League of One member.  Of course, there is zero evidence for the idea, but there's nothing that soundly disconfirms it yet either.

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

didymos1120 wrote...

PARAGON87 wrote...
If you read the backhistory of Mass Effect, this happened when the salarians and asari had first contact with each other, roughly 2,500 years ago. 

Salarians can barely reach the age of forty. 

So I would discount the League of One would have anything to do with this, because they are long dead.

True, but we don't know how long the SB has been around, or if it's always been the same person.  If the Dread Pirate Roberts theory is correct, then it's an inherited position and the original, founding SB could have been the rumored 13th League of One member.  Of course, there is zero evidence for the idea, but there's nothing that soundly disconfirms it yet either.

The trailer for LotSB says he's been in power for decades.  So it coiuld just be one guy.

[didymos1120]

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

The trailer for LotSB says he's been in power for decades.  So it coiuld just be one guy.

Yeah, I know.  "[I]n power" is ambiguous though.   It could mean he's the first, but it just seems weird to say "he's been in power for decades" if there was nobody in power before that. Usually you hear that phrase applied to people who've taken over something, like a crime family or a country.  Not always, but most of the time.

[Homebound]

Im not sure if the Shadow Broker is evil or not, but we DO KNOW how the Shadow Broker has been operating for so long. Yes, I haz spoilers. I know something u dont.

[krasnoarmeets]

didymos1120 wrote...

True, but we don't know how long the SB has been around, or if it's always been the same person.  If the Dread Pirate Roberts theory is correct, then it's an inherited position and the original, founding SB could have been the rumored 13th League of One member.  Of course, there is zero evidence for the idea, but there's nothing that soundly disconfirms it yet either.

The dread pirate Roberts is probably a perfect analogy

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 05 septembre 2010 - 08:12 .

[Pauravi]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Those are examples, not a definition.

And I fail to connect any of them to anything I am aware of the Shadow Broker has done.

An example of evil is the perfect definition, a picture paints a thousand words.

Just as an aside, actually, an example is a terrible definition.
An example is a good teaching tool, but it is always bereft of the necessary specifics that a true definition entails.

Using an example in place of a definition is, to me, an inidication that the person who is doing so doesn't have a very good understanding of what they're talking about.  This is doubly so in the case of a nebulous and subjective idea such as "evil".  Asking you to define the word is a rhetorical question that is meant to point out the problems inherent in creating such a definition.  Giving an example instead serves only to keep you from having to think deeply about that question.  An example cannot, itself, illuminate complex ideas, such as "Are there any actions that are always evil?", or whether being selfish is evil or not, and if it is, where are the lines between pragmatic self-interest, selfishness, and evil?  Only if you try and create a definition for the word do you run headlong into those issues.  Defining evil is likely to end up with something like the Supreme Court's definition of pornography: "I know it when I see it".