47 réponses à ce sujet

[DWSmiley]

Sigh. You can't seriously believe my mages don't cast spells. Look, you enjoy putting points in willpower and that's great. Do whatever is fun for you.

[xxBabyMonkeyxx]

Honestly, it all depends on how you build your mage. Like an if you put heavy armor on an arcane warrior, your going to need alot of willpower. Or if you use blood magic, then high willpower is pretty much useless.

[Skyplant]

I always seem to run out of mana really quickly unless my willpower is the same as my magic level, maybe its just the way I play, I do use pretty much all the buffs and spells at my disposal tbh

[Lumikki]

Like above sayed, it all depends how you build and play the mage. I seem to run out of mana very easyly and extreme fast. How ever, I do agree that after sertain levels, you don't need to worry so much "will" anymore. In early level it's easyer to play if "will" is about same as your magic, but later it's only magic you need. I have tryed it both ways and low will just doesn't work well for me.

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 septembre 2010 - 11:07 .

[beancounter501]

DWSmiley wrote...

Sigh. You can't seriously believe my mages don't cast spells. Look, you enjoy putting points in willpower and that's great. Do whatever is fun for you.

You mean your mage does not sit there and Staff Attack?!  They can use spells if you don't take Willpower.  Learn new things on the boards every day. 

Modifié par beancounter501, 04 septembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[termokanden]

Skyplant wrote...

I always seem to run out of mana really quickly unless my willpower is the same as my magic level, maybe its just the way I play, I do use pretty much all the buffs and spells at my disposal tbh

Few sustained abilities are truly worth it. Most just sit there drinking your mana and giving you just about zero benefit.

For example, you COULD run all the melee buffs, but if you kill primarily with magic, why would you?

If you do have some that you consider important (mostly this will be for arcane warriors or melee heavy groups), then I can understand a small investment in willpower for that purpose.

[Dervla]

I like to try many different mage builds just for variety and from my own experience I only need to put points in willpower in builds that run 2+ sustains, and even then I find that more than 20 WP is a waste on anything other than a fully supporting Creationist/Spirit Healer where I would go to 25 WP and make the rest up with gear as the only real reason to run a build like that is to support 3 melee.

[kab]

None.



1. Encounters are shorter and require less mana because Spellpower is higher.

2. Lyrium potions are plentiful give more due to high Spellpower, though they are still rarely needed.

3. Dark Sustenance is easy to acquire early.

4. Blood Mages can use Blood Magic and are very efficient with an "Improves Blood Magic" item.

5. Shapeshifters can use shifting for damage most underestimate as well as damage mitigation, disables and AoE.

6. Arcane Warriors primarily focus on sustained spells which the base pool is sufficient for.

7. The Fade adds permanent Willpower for a boost.

8. Plenty of items with Willpower or Mana Regeration.

9. Armor sets can be used to push Fatigue negative, whether with one point of Arcane Warrior or through getting Strength just high enough.

10. Death Syphon is nestled between the two most powerful AoEs in the game and benefits from higher Spellpower. If you're out of mana there ought to be plenty of bodies around.

11. Song of Valor, Rejuvenate, Spellbloom, Mass Rejuvenation and Mana Drain can all provide additional mana.

12. You get a bonus to mana regeneration in combat when low. If you spend the majority of the fight with low mana you can actually spend more mana in total over the course of the fight. I think the effects of this are rather minor but it's just one more piece to the puzzle.



As it is I haven't found a build where it's particularly useful. The basic problem is that Spellpower affects virtually every talent based form of mana regeneration, and potions, and makes the mana spent more effective, and you get a bonus to regeneration at low mana levels, while Willpower doesn't do anything for regeneration or effectiveness. If you're having problems I certainly wouldn't raise Willpower past 20-30 but as long as you're having fun it doesn't really matter what you do, play an all Strength Mage if you find it enjoyable. I play on Nightmare if that matters.



The difference isn't huge regardless.

[Elhanan]

[quote]kab wrote...

None.

1. Encounters are shorter and require less mana because Spellpower is higher. [/quote]

In theory, yes they should be. Enemies should be resisting less often, and some spell dmg should increase. But sometimes the game beats the odds and makes that resist roll, and then another spell is required. At some point, the extra mana is helpful.


[quote]2. Lyrium potions are plentiful give more due to high Spellpower, though they are still rarely needed.[/quote]

I rarely use them, so I concede the point. Only needed to gain the Crafty achievement in preperation for another trip to the Golem DLC.


[quote]3. Dark Sustenance is easy to acquire early.[/quote]

Most of my mages have this too, as those Wardens did not need to suffer and die for nothing. But the casting time and cooldown are a bit longer than desired, so I rarely use this anyway.
 

[quote]4. Blood Mages can use Blood Magic and are very efficient with an "Improves Blood Magic" item.[/quote]

I rarely take BM, as I have found it less helpful than SH, and it requires more oversight.


[quote]5. Shapeshifters can use shifting for damage most underestimate as well as damage mitigation, disables and AoE.[/quote]

I have not yet tried Shifter; no plans to do so.


[quote]6. Arcane Warriors primarily focus on sustained spells which the base pool is sufficient for.[/quote]

Considering that all may be activated when pool is low, I agree. But since the lower pool can be drained quickly from sustains, thus causing the modes to fail in battle, having a deeper pool appears to be helpful, as well as restorative item gear.


[quote]7. The Fade adds permanent Willpower for a boost.[/quote]

Use this, too; still increase it to 30 base most of the time.


[quote]8. Plenty of items with Willpower or Mana Regeration.[/quote]

Yep, and not having to rely on these allows for an even wider range of choices; these items plus others.


[quote]9. Armor sets can be used to push Fatigue negative, whether with one point of Arcane Warrior or through getting Strength just high enough.[/quote]

Same results whether Willpower is higher or not.


[quote]10. Death Syphon is nestled between the two most powerful AoEs in the game and benefits from higher Spellpower. If you're out of mana there ought to be plenty of bodies around.[/quote]

If we are speaking of Walking Bombs, the lesser Magic score could help insure that those bodies are not the party....

And Death Syphon is not as needed with a higher Willpower score, though I have used it recently in some hot zones.


[quote]11. Song of Valor, Rejuvenate, Spellbloom, Mass Rejuvenation and Mana Drain can all provide additional mana.[/quote]

Here helps my point as these spells are not as needed with higher Will; have never used Spellbloom at all.


[quote]12. You get a bonus to mana regeneration in combat when low. If you spend the majority of the fight with low mana you can actually spend more mana in total over the course of the fight. I think the effects of this are rather minor but it's just one more piece to the puzzle.[/quote]

Both builds would receive this, so it would seem to cancel out the point. But I find this interesting, as well. Plus one may gain Stamina runes and skills in Awakenings, but I use these too, though not as needed with the invested build.

[quote]As it is I haven't found a build where it's particularly useful. The basic problem is that Spellpower affects virtually every talent based form of mana regeneration, and potions, and makes the mana spent more effective, and you get a bonus to regeneration at low mana levels, while Willpower doesn't do anything for regeneration or effectiveness. If you're having problems I certainly wouldn't raise Willpower past 20-30 but as long as you're having fun it doesn't really matter what you do, play an all Strength Mage if you find it enjoyable. I play on Nightmare if that matters.

The difference isn't huge regardless.[/quote]

I agree; difference is not huge. As I hate one trick ponies and a single basket of eggs, I prefer to explore with more fuel in the tank than just Magic. Or Strength when dealing with 2H for that matter. And more Will adds to mental protection; a minor note, but I will take it.

Modifié par Elhanan, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:15 .

[Cariborne]

It depends on the player really, with my Offensive Mage, I got 20 Willpower, and then pumped everything into Magic with him. With my Supportive/Defensive Mage, I got her up to 50Willpower, with Magic itself only at 65-or so. This was all in Origins, my O. Mage hit hard enough that people dropped before I was even capable of running low on Mana, and on those few encounters that he did, BAM! Blood Magic. My D. Mage was different, I had her throwing out Heals, using Haste and Support Auras on all party members at all times, and still had to use the odd potion even with all her Mana.



So, it depends on your personal choices, and your play style.

[kab]

Considering that all may be activated when pool is low, I agree. But since the lower pool can be drained quickly from sustains, thus causing the modes to fail in battle, having a deeper pool appears to be helpful, as well as restorative item gear.

This doesn't make any sense. Either I'm not understanding what you're trying to say or you don't understand how sustains work. There's only a few sustains that have a mechanic that can drain your mana and turn it off.

If we are speaking of Walking Bombs, the lesser Magic score could help insure that those bodies are not the party....

That's what positioning, disables and if all else fails Force Field are for.



I could see taking plenty of Willpower on a support Mage governed entirely by tactics. Many of the things I listed require some degree of micromanagement. Blood Magic has to be turned on and off, Shapeshifting is very situational and requires picking the right shape, Dark Sustenance isn't even available to NPCs, Death Syphon needs to be positioned around corpses and I definitely don't want an NPC running around using potions willy nilly.

[Elhanan]

I guess I have used sustains that fail when the pool is running low, even with a deper pool. As I am no spell expert, it could be any number of them seen recently in the Golem DLC (ie; tried varied combos).

[Mr_Raider]

There is no mystery here. willpower is useful at low levels. as you level up and get good items, it is far less useful. My suggestion remains: 30 in DAO, respec all to magic in DAA.

[termokanden]

The problem with willpower is that in the long run it makes very little difference. Just like in MMOs it's not very important to have a very large mana pool, but mana efficiency and regeneration are much more important. Magic gives you efficiency. Willpower just gives you mana.



As people have noted here, even high Willpower mages can run out very quickly.



Recently I tried it with Finn in Witch Hunt. He starts out with some ridiculous amount of willpower, 50 or something, and he still runs out quickly. And his lack of spellpower was certainly noticable.

[MZJin]

yasuraka.hakkyou wrote...

DWSmiley: 1) shapeshifting I feel was horribly implemented. 2) True, you have me there. 3) Plinking away with staff bolts is slow, not always a good option, and is visually lame. this is personally why I pump will, to a certain point. 4) not sure I played it right, but AW just doesn't work well for me. Strange, since I usually love that kinda class / spec / etc.

Shall we agree to disagree on needing to pump will?

Arcane warriors are an awkward build since they hamstring your casting abilities while providing extremely average damaging abilities.

At the same time, you gain ... armor and resistences. Both are unimpressive except in select scenarios since not many people are interested in seeing their hero stand there not dying but also being fairly average in abilities.

To answer the question, Willpower is not worth investing a single point into because 1) Lyrium Potions are extremely plentiful and 2) Awakenings skills that increase Willpower anyway.

[termokanden]

MZjin, that is exactly the reason none of my mages are Arcane Warriors. I like the playstyle of dealing rather extreme damage but ending up dead if you make a mistake. To me that's what mages are all about. I don't disrespect others choosing Arcane Warrior though.

11. Song of Valor, Rejuvenate, Spellbloom, Mass Rejuvenation and Mana Drain can all provide additional mana.

Here helps my point as these spells are not as needed with higher Will; have never used Spellbloom at all.

Rejuvenate is OK, but really none of them are needed even with zero points spent on willpower.

I rarely take BM, as I have found it less helpful than SH, and it requires more oversight.

Well I'll try encouraging you to give it a shot. The thing about Blood Mage is that it only really gets useful once you get Blood Wound. But BW is just incredibly powerful and has no friendly-fire. Combine Fireball, Virulent Walking Bomb and Blood Wound, and not a whole lot of of monsters will be left after that. Blood Wound is also generally helpful if you get in trouble. The rest of the Blood Mage abilities are OK but nothing special.

[MZJin]

termokanden wrote...

MZjin, that is exactly the reason none of my mages are Arcane Warriors. I like the playstyle of dealing rather extreme damage but ending up dead if you make a mistake. To me that's what mages are all about. I don't disrespect others choosing Arcane Warrior though.

11. Song of Valor, Rejuvenate, Spellbloom, Mass Rejuvenation and Mana Drain can all provide additional mana.

Here helps my point as these spells are not as needed with higher Will; have never used Spellbloom at all.

Rejuvenate is OK, but really none of them are needed even with zero points spent on willpower.

I rarely take BM, as I have found it less helpful than SH, and it requires more oversight.

Well I'll try encouraging you to give it a shot. The thing about Blood Mage is that it only really gets useful once you get Blood Wound. But BW is just incredibly powerful and has no friendly-fire. Combine Fireball, Virulent Walking Bomb and Blood Wound, and not a whole lot of of monsters will be left after that. Blood Wound is also generally helpful if you get in trouble. The rest of the Blood Mage abilities are OK but nothing special.

There are ways of playing Arcane Warrior just to use some of the better items while play a pure Mage basically, and this is probably the most damaging one you can do.

However, Dragon Age is a rare game in that Rogues and Warriors are actually better than Mages in damaging capability. It certainly has to do with the game design I think where warriors and rogues have "infinite" ammo via Auto-Attack while Mages rely on either health or mana - both indirectly via chugging potions. It also doesn't help that one arrow can easily do triple digit damage (and thousands of damage with an aided setup), while Mages don't even get to stop Time. 

Modifié par MZJin, 16 septembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[termokanden]

Well I think mages are best against lots of regular enemies because of the insane damage AoE abilities can deal, but both warriors and rogues have way higher DPS against bosses.



This is about Origins though. In Awakening Spirit Warrior archers are just plain nuts. I won't play that combination ever again, it's simply so powerful it's not even fun anymore.



Not sure I would pick Arcane Warrior just to use items. I see how it's useful though.

[DWSmiley]

termokanden wrote...

Well I think mages are best against lots of regular enemies because of the insane damage AoE abilities can deal, but both warriors and rogues have way higher DPS against bosses.

This is about Origins though. In Awakening Spirit Warrior archers are just plain nuts. I won't play that combination ever again, it's simply so powerful it's not even fun anymore.

Not sure I would pick Arcane Warrior just to use items. I see how it's useful though.

I agree with all of that - though I'm going to take my Spirit Warrior archer to Amgarrak to see the difference and respec the dwarf rogue to archer for good measure!  I think people get sold on willpower because if they do something like put in 1 point per level then, sure enough, by the time they have 10-15 points in willpower their character is doing well.  But it's just coincidence, as that's the point where characters begin to outclass monsters anyway.

[termokanden]

Indeed, I experienced the same thing. Then tried without the willpower and found out I wasn't running out of mana.

Anyway rogue archers are really good for Golems. Stealth helped me in the golem fights, and Ranger helped me against the Harvester. Legion's damage mitigation should be good too here, but I didn't use that myself.

Spirit Warrior archer should be fine too, but I think the balance is less in their favor for this DLC than it normally is.

Modifié par termokanden, 17 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[Phazor58]

I just pumped all my points into magic. At lower levels, the lower amount of mana wasn't really a problem as most enemies weren't too powerful. Later in the game, enemies became more powerful, but I got better equipment that boosted my mana up to the point where an increase in willpower was unnecessary. I almost never run out of mana, and on the few occasions that I do, I have tons of mana pots that I can use to quickly jump back into spellcasting. And of course, since all my points are in magic, my spells do a lot more damage and enemies go down quicker.

[kab]

Arcane Warrior does not hamstring spellcasting at all. What does hamstring spellcasting is Combat Magic, Shimmering Shield, Frost Weapons, Miasma, Arcane Armor, Stoneskin, etc. all being activated while wearing massive armor. The only problem with a combat caster in something like Wade's Superior is the lack of regeneration and casting stats. Of course you get negative fatigue and a nice bonus to armor in return. That said even on an Arcane Warrior I still throw plenty of spells around, especially past 14 when combat health regeneration gets decent and you've got Blood Magic.



Open a fight with Blood Wound, Fireball and Virulent Walking Bomb while your nigh unkillable with 50-60 armor and 75% resistance to everything. Show me the Warrior or Rogue doing that kind of damage and living. If they've got a Mage buffing them it doesn't count -- that requires two characters and obviously two characters ought to do more damage than one.

[termokanden]

Pretty sure both my warrior and my rogue can outdamage that by far on bosses.



Of course they can't keep up on trash, but then all good mages just mop the floor with trash.