202 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
the whole global cooldown thing realy takes away from having all those abilities.

This is especially true for the combat classes.  It's hard to find situations where using another power over Adrenaline Rush or Cloak makes sense.  Charge is similar, but I have found plenty of situations where charging is not the answer.

[termokanden]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand what's so great about Reave for a soldier?



It just keeps you from using Adrenaline Rush. That's the thing about soldiers. It's very difficult to find any power that can match the damage boost and survivability gained from Adrenaline Rush.

[JaegerBane]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
the whole global cooldown thing realy takes away from having all those abilities. id really like ME3 to take away classes and just give us a list of skills to invest in. i just dont like having a few awesome abilities but only on selected characters. i would replay ME2 alot more if i could only throw together the revenant, singularity, charge, cryo ammo, drone, and cloak. i wouldnt need anything else, and id be having alot more fun then just getting 1/5 of the pie.ofcorse id need my controller to have a few more mappable buttons, i hope bioware gives us that option more then anything in ME3. honestly.

Actually, this is something I agree with. I do still think each class should have a signature power that is unique to them, but you should be able to select your own powers other than your signature power. Bioware went a bit overboard with the class focus - they're very narrow and some classes aren't far off being one trick ponies.

[termokanden]

Indeed they aren't. Even worse I don't think there's much choice in where you spend your points. Pretty much everyone who's not insane will take the passive to max then the class-specific skill to max. That's a big chunk of points gone already.

[Kronner]

Different classes are awesome idea. What's not to like? You can play pure shooter, biotic, tech or something in between. Just ideal solution. One trick pony? Well, that is up to the player. For example I find Charge to be so much fun to use I do not mind using basically only Charge over and over (and I have yet to get bored with it). But you can also play Vanguard with mid-range weapon, invest only one or three points in Charge and focus on your other biotics. Same goes for every class, except for maybe Soldier, but then again, you can play long range specialist Soldier, close combat Soldier or something in between. Global cooldown is IMHO also very good idea, stops you from spamming all abilities in 2 seconds like you could in ME1.



btw Reave Soldier? Why? Adrenaline Rush is better choice in ANY situation.

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

Actually, this is something I agree with. I do still think each class should have a signature power that is unique to them, but you should be able to select your own powers other than your signature power. Bioware went a bit overboard with the class focus - they're very narrow and some classes aren't far off being one trick ponies.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. I LIKE classes, and always will. I much prefer a game like DA:O than a game like Oblivion. It's very hard to balance a game when there's a million and one different combinations that could easily lead to easy mode. I think some expansion would be fine by adding more abilities, but I'm certainly not on board for anything even remotely resembling Oblivion's classless system.

termokanden wrote...

Indeed they aren't. Even worse I
don't think there's much choice in where you spend your points. Pretty
much everyone who's not insane will take the passive to max then the
class-specific skill to max. That's a big chunk of points gone
already.

That's 20 points, you get 51, it's not even half your point total to max your class ability and your passive. I really don't think it's that big a deal.

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 septembre 2010 - 01:53 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. I LIKE classes, and always will. I much prefer a game like DA:O than I game like Oblivion. It's very hard to balance a game when there's a million and one different combinations that could easily lead to easy mode. I think some expansion would be fine by adding more abilities, but I'm certainly not on board for anything even remotely resembling Oblivion's classless system.

I didn't say I had a problem with classes - I have a problem with the way the class's powers are pre-set. DA:O, for instance, didn't force you to play a mage that only used Spirit spells, for example. That was up to the player. IT should be the same in ME2 - you pick a class, and depending on the class, you pick a selection of powers from the tech/biotic/combat trees.

Besides, if the concern is that it might become easy mode, I hate to bust your bubble but we're already there. Just look at Adrenaline Rush. It's like FEAR's Slowmo feature but with a recharge 20 times as fast.

[termokanden]

20 is still a large chunk of points. Besides for the other points you are likely to evolve powers rather than leaving them at a few points. Then there's also the problem of some powers being quite underwhelming, like Concussive Shot for example.

I'm not saying it's really bad, but I personally prefer to have a wider range of choices available and not to have to spend so many levels just focusing on evolving one ability. Particularly the last 10 levels. Most of them you don't even have enough points to buy one ability. Yay, level up, now only 3 more before I see any actual difference!

Modifié par termokanden, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:02 .

[lazuli]

Kronner wrote...
btw Reave Soldier? Why? Adrenaline Rush is better choice in ANY situation.

I think there's one situation where Reave outshines Adrenaline Rush.  If you're relatively new to Insanity, Area Reave is a godsend when that first Collector platform comes sailling in.

[Kronner]

lazuli wrote...

Kronner wrote...
btw Reave Soldier? Why? Adrenaline Rush is better choice in ANY situation.

I think there's one situation where Reave outshines Adrenaline Rush.  If you're relatively new to Insanity, Area Reave is a godsend when that first Collector platform comes sailling in.

With AR you can take them all down quite easily. With Reave you just strip their defences. Not to mention AR has faster CD than Reave

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

I didn't say I had a problem with classes - I have a problem with the way the class's powers are pre-set. DA:O, for instance, didn't force you to play a mage that only used Spirit spells, for example. That was up to the player. IT should be the same in ME2 - you pick a class, and depending on the class, you pick a selection of powers from the tech/biotic/combat trees.

Besides, if the concern is that it might become easy mode, I hate to bust your bubble but we're already there. Just look at Adrenaline Rush. It's like FEAR's Slowmo feature but with a recharge 20 times as fast.

And I'm fine with an expanded selection of powers, it's just since you were quoting the classless advocate in your post when you said powers other than signature I thought you meant ANY power in the game, thus essentially being a classless system just one with a signature power.

And really, the AR thing is a bit ridiculous. Yes it's a powerful ability, but lets not pretend the soldier can completely forget about cover and just stand in the middle of the battlefield all day cause of AR. ME is hardly the first game to make widespread use of bullet time and really, what else were they going to give the soldier? Immunity is more broken than AR will ever be.

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:12 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Different classes are awesome idea. What's not to like? You can play pure shooter, biotic, tech or something in between. Just ideal solution.

The problem is that the 'in between' classes are only 'in between' thematically. An infiltrator may be a combat/tech hybrid on paper but in reality if you're not sniping all day long then you're gimping yourself. Same with Vanguard - on paper, a biotic/combat hybrid but in reality spends all day charging.

One trick pony? Well, that is up to the player. For example I find Charge to be so much fun to use I do not mind using basically only Charge over and over (and I have yet to get bored with it). But you can also play Vanguard with mid-range weapon, invest only one or three points in Charge and focus on your other biotics.

Sure, you can invest in your biotics and mid range weapons and get a great idea as to what it's like to play a crap Adept. The ability to take your class structure in different directions is only worthwhile if the different directions are equally effective - gimping yourself doesn't really qualify.

Don't get me wrong, if you're willing to break out the ini files and savegame editors you can actually get some semblance of a class that doesn't have to rely on doing the same thing ad nauseum for 50 hours to be effective (Adepts and Sentinels are good for this kind of modding)... but you shouldn't start having to hack the game just to achieve this.

Same goes for every class, except for maybe Soldier, but then again, you can play long range specialist Soldier, close combat Soldier or something in between.

Let's not get silly, Kronner. There is a difference to how a soldier works depending on what weapon they acquire, but it's not like they play *that* differently. You're still spamming AR and shooting.

Global cooldown is IMHO also very good idea, stops you from spamming all abilities in 2 seconds like you could in ME1.

Actually I agree with global cooldown, that was one of the better features as it permitted vastly reduced cooldowns.

btw Reave Soldier? Why? Adrenaline Rush is better choice in ANY situation.

Which precisely highlights how completely out of whack some of the powers are. Reave is one of the most OP abiltiies in the game... and despite that, there's never a situation where AR is worse choice. What does that tell you about the balance?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:12 .

[termokanden]

Vastly reduced cooldowns? I take it you never played a Bastion Adept or a Shock Trooper Vanguard in ME1?

Anyway I disagree very strongly with the universal cooldown. It makes a caster someone that casts, waits, casts, waits. Very boring. In ME1 you could chain cast and make combos, the way it should be. It should be tuned to be more difficult, but not by limiting casting so much it becomes boring.

Luckily shooting people is FUN in ME2, otherwise I would have given up on it.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:17 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...
And I'm fine with an expanded selection of powers, it's just since you were quoting the classless advocate in your post when you said powers other than signature I thought you meant ANY power in the game, thus essentially being a classless system just one with a signature power.

Yeah, I should have made that clearer. I am keen to preserve the whole Tech/Biotic/Combat tree.

And really, the AR thing is a bit ridiculous. Yes it's a powerful ability, but lets not pretend the soldier can completely forget about cover and just stand in the middle of the battlefield all day cause of AR. ME is hardly the first game to make widespread use of bullet time and really, what else were they going to give the soldier? Immunity is more broken than AR will ever be.

Well, yeah, immunity was a bit silly. I'm not really sure what your point is though - it doesn't stop the fact that AR is so ridiculously overpowered that it renders all other powers virtually pointless. I mean, compare it to Drone and Singularity. There just isn't any balance to the abilties whatsoever.

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

Well, yeah, immunity was a bit silly. I'm not really sure what your point is though - it doesn't stop the fact that AR is so ridiculously overpowered that it renders all other powers virtually pointless. I mean, compare it to Drone and Singularity. There just isn't any balance to the abilties whatsoever.

The point is I don't consider it particularly OP because of the class that it's exclusive to. Soldiers do their damage with guns. I can't think of another power that doesn't seem overtly biotic in nature that they could have given them and as such I don't think it's an issue that it's all they spam. Soldiers were NEVER going to have a wide variety of powers to choose from in the first place so them being pigeonholed into AR isn't an issue for me. It's a power that makes you shoot better on a class that revolves entirely around shooting.

The difference between the engineer and the adept is that they DO and were always going to have a group of a abilites to take advatange of cause they're ability classes while the soldier isn't. They had to make AR very good if they knew they weren't going to give the soldier much else to use in it's place. I don't think that's an issue with AR, it's an issue with the soldier and one that I frankly don't mind. AR fits the soldier perfectly, everything else is extraneous. I think this kind of logic is the same reason they went with ammo powers as well. They had to give the soldier abilites without giving the soldier abilities if that makes any sense.

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:23 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

The problem is that the 'in between' classes are only 'in between' thematically. An infiltrator may be a combat/tech hybrid on paper but in reality if you're not sniping all day long then you're gimping yourself. Same with Vanguard - on paper, a biotic/combat hybrid but in reality spends all day charging.

See, this is the problem. You think that when you do not kill as fast as this or that, you are gimping yourself. Well, that is not really true. Some of my friends LOVE Engineer, they enjoy the pause function, like to micromanage the squad and slowly advance. I do not enjoy playing like that, but they also do not feel like they are gimping themselves.

JaegerBane wrote...Sure, you can invest in your biotics and mid range weapons and get a great idea as to what it's like to play a crap Adept. The ability to take your class structure in different directions is only worthwhile if the different directions are equally effective - gimping yourself doesn't really qualify.

Don't get me wrong, if you're willing to break out the ini files and savegame editors you can actually get some semblance of a class that doesn't have to rely on doing the same thing ad nauseum for 50 hours to be effective (Adepts and Sentinels are good for this kind of modding)... but you shouldn't start having to hack the game just to achieve this.

Once again, fastest does not equal best. You do not have to complete Reaper IFF in 6 minutes to have fun with the game. No need to use the same ability over and over again. If a player want to have some unlimited fun with any biotic power, (s)he just plays on Normal or something and do not worry about anything. Just toying with the enemies any way you want.

JaegerBane wrote...
Let's not get silly, Kronner. There is a difference to how a soldier works depending on what weapon they acquire, but it's not like they play *that* differently. You're still spamming AR and shooting.

It is a completly different experience to play Widow Soldier that snipes enemies from distance and uses Assault Rifle as a secondary weapon or Shotgun Soldier who rushes and flanks enemies and blasts them in the face. Sure you use AR, but in a different way. One may be purely damage and the other strategic move, retreat or flanking.

JaegerBane wrote...
Which precisely highlights how completely out of whack some of the powers are. Reave is one of the most OP abiltiies in the game... and despite that, there's never a situation where AR is worse choice. What does that tell you about the balance?

Game is balanced around Normal. If people accept that difference between Soldier and Adept is playstyle, there is no problem. Singularity does not give you big damage boost like AR, but it offers you totally different experience. Neither is better or worse, it is just different. And that Insanity requires totally different strategy than Normal is just great. Some people may not like Insanity, but then again, no one says they have to play it.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:27 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

Vastly reduced cooldowns? I take it you never played a Bastion Adept or a Shock Trooper Vanguard in ME1?

My Shock Trooper Vanguard was the class I imported into ME2. I don't ever recall being able to hurl off as many Throws in seconds even abusing AR as I can with my ME2 weaponised Adept Nemesis.

Anyway I disagree very strongly with the universal cooldown. It makes a caster someone that casts, waits, casts, waits. Very boring. In ME1 you could chain cast and make combos, the way it should be. It should be tuned to be more difficult, but not by limiting casting so much it becomes boring.

Luckily shooting people is FUN in ME2, otherwise I would have given up on it.

Precisely why I added Barrier, Warp Ammo, shotties, sniper and assault rifles to my ME2 Adept.

[Mr_Raider]

JaegerBane wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
the whole global cooldown thing realy takes away from having all those abilities. id really like ME3 to take away classes and just give us a list of skills to invest in. i just dont like having a few awesome abilities but only on selected characters. i would replay ME2 alot more if i could only throw together the revenant, singularity, charge, cryo ammo, drone, and cloak. i wouldnt need anything else, and id be having alot more fun then just getting 1/5 of the pie.ofcorse id need my controller to have a few more mappable buttons, i hope bioware gives us that option more then anything in ME3. honestly.

Actually, this is something I agree with. I do still think each class should have a signature power that is unique to them, but you should be able to select your own powers other than your signature power. Bioware went a bit overboard with the class focus - they're very narrow and some classes aren't far off being one trick ponies.

*cough* Oblivion *cough*

[termokanden]

JaegerBane wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Vastly reduced cooldowns? I take it you never played a Bastion Adept or a Shock Trooper Vanguard in ME1?

My Shock Trooper Vanguard was the class I imported into ME2. I don't ever recall being able to hurl off as many Throws in seconds even abusing AR as I can with my ME2 weaponised Adept Nemesis.

Of those two, I most recently played a Bastion Adept myself. While they do not have Adrenaline Rush, they can chain cast non-stop by cycling though abilities. It's very fun and I'm sad this has been lost in ME2.

Vanguards need to spend Adrenaline Rush wisely to chain cast, but it's doable.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:37 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
See, this is the problem. You think that when you do not kill as fast as this or that, you are gimping yourself. Well, that is not really true. Some of my friends LOVE Engineer, they enjoy the pause function, like to micromanage the squad and slowly advance. I do not enjoy playing like that, but they also do not feel like they are gimping themselves.

I'm not going to argue about whether this person finds it fun and that person doesn't etc - that is irrelevant. The point is that the situation is the class in question simply isn't as effective when played outside of a very narrow style. I totally get the idea that player fun is ultimately the acid test, but in the same vein, claiming that effectiveness isn't important is nonsense - it's like claiming that you can play a dual-wielding Plate-wearing mage in Neverwinter Nights is possible. They'd be so crap it's be pointless.

The fact that you can physically do it doesn't help the fact that you're intentionally crippling your character. You may not have a problem doing this, but I can assure you, many people do. It's not like playing a class in different styles effectively has never been done before. DA:O is a brilliant example of this.

Once again, fastest does not equal best. You do not have to complete Reaper IFF in 6 minutes to have fun with the game. No need to use the same ability over and over again. If a player want to have some unlimited fun with any biotic power, (s)he just plays on Normal or something and do not worry about anything. Just toying with the enemies any way you want.

For some reason you have this preconception that players either want to speed-run or players want to goof about playing with abilities. Some of us would like a balance between the two, funnily enough.

It is a completly different experience to play Widow Soldier that snipes enemies from distance and uses Assault Rifle as a secondary weapon or Shotgun Soldier who rushes and flanks enemies and blasts them in the face. Sure you use AR, but in a different way. One may be purely damage and the other strategic move, retreat or flanking.

I mean, relatively speaking. Unless you're claiming the difference between playing a widow soldier and a rev soldier is like the difference between playing a Vanguard and an Engineer, I'm not really sure what point you're making. The only real difference is the range you're fighting at the majority of the time.

Game is balanced around Normal. If people accept that difference between Soldier and Adept is playstyle, there is no problem. Singularity does not give you big damage boost like AR, but it offers you totally different experience. Neither is better or worse, it is just different. And that Insanity requires totally different strategy than Normal is just great. Some people may not like Insanity, but then again, no one says they have to play it.

What I meant to say was that the overall class balance is non-existant. The general level of power between an Adept and a soldier is severly skewed in the direction of the Soldier... but not because of a different playstyle, it's because of specific powers. That's really the long and short of my issue - your class choice shouldn't really be a difficulty level pseudo-choice. The class balance wasn't as bad in ME1, for example. Some abiltiies were flagrantly OP, yes, but the crucial issue was that you could choose a class and not end up with wildly differing levels of effectiveness despite completely different playstyles.

The only place this wasn't totally true was the Engineer.

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

What I meant to say was that the overall class balance is non-existant. The general level of power between an Adept and a soldier is severly skewed in the direction of the Soldier... but not because of a different playstyle, it's because of specific powers. That's really the long and short of my issue - your class choice shouldn't really be a difficulty level pseudo-choice. The class balance wasn't as bad in ME1, for example. Some abiltiies were flagrantly OP, yes, but the crucial issue was that you could choose a class and not end up with wildly differing levels of effectiveness despite completely different playstyles.

The only place this wasn't totally true was the Engineer.

On what difficulty is the level of power between an adept and a soldier severely skewed in the direction of the soldier? I don't think class balance is lacking anywhere near as badly as you seem to think it is.

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:53 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm not going to argue about whether this person finds it fun and that person doesn't etc - that is irrelevant. The point is that the situation is the class in question simply isn't as effective when played outside of a very narrow style. I totally get the idea that player fun is ultimately the acid test, but in the same vein, claiming that effectiveness isn't important is nonsense - it's like claiming that you can play a dual-wielding Plate-wearing mage in Neverwinter Nights is possible. They'd be so crap it's be pointless.

The fact that you can physically do it doesn't help the fact that you're intentionally crippling your character. You may not have a problem doing this, but I can assure you, many people do. It's not like playing a class in different styles effectively has never been done before. DA:O is a brilliant example of this.

Well, for example in DA:O (I played it with friends, but never liked it enough to buy a copy for myself) you also have the most effective abilities and then everything else (for example max DEX Rogue is more effective than any other melee based character etc.). If you watch for example Adept vids by Bozorgmehr or AverageGatsby, their playstyles are different and both very effective.

JaegerBane wrote...
For some reason you have this preconception that players either want to speed-run or players want to goof about playing with abilities. Some of us would like a balance between the two, funnily enough.

And what's to stop you from playing that way? I like something in between too.

JaegerBane wrote...
I mean, relatively speaking. Unless you're claiming the difference between playing a widow soldier and a rev soldier is like the difference between playing a Vanguard and an Engineer, I'm not really sure what point you're making. The only real difference is the range you're fighting at the majority of the time.

Of course not.
But within the same class, the experience is different depending on your playstyle. Weapon and power choices influence this greatly.

JaegerBane wrote...
What I meant to say was that the overall class balance is non-existant. The general level of power between an Adept and a soldier is severly skewed in the direction of the Soldier... but not because of a different playstyle, it's because of specific powers. That's really the long and short of my issue - your class choice shouldn't really be a difficulty level pseudo-choice. The class balance wasn't as bad in ME1, for example. Some abiltiies were flagrantly OP, yes, but the crucial issue was that you could choose a class and not end up with wildly differing levels of effectiveness despite completely different playstyles.

The only place this wasn't totally true was the Engineer.

In ME (Insanity - immunity spamfest) Soldier is vastly inferior to Adept in terms of killing speed and CC (unless you had Singularity Soldier or something like that), yet I enjoyed Soldier more. I did not care I could play through the game faster with an Adept.
IMHO Adept is not worse than Soldier in ME2, it is just different and requires different strategies and playstyle. I also do not think Adept is less effective than Soldier on Insanity. If you use your squad properly you will not shoot nearly as much as Soldier does. classes do not have to be balanced against each other since there is no PvP.
Mages are more powerful than warriors in pretty much every (SP) RPG game, yet lot of people still play Warriors.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[sinosleep]

Kronner wrote...

Mages are more powerful than warriors in pretty much every (SP) RPG game, yet lot of people still play Warriors.

DA:O 2 hander warrior defender till the day I die
Diablo 2  double axe wielding frenzy barbarian FTW ! 
Oblivion sword and board all day long

to hell with frail mages and their aoe nonsense. I'll aoe some face with my axes.

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[termokanden]

Hehe. My jaw dropped when I saw how well a Spirit Warrior archer worked.



Just... wow.

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...
On what difficulty is the level of power between an adept and a soldier severely skewed in the direction of the soldier? I don't think class balance is lacking anywhere near as badly as you seem to think it is.

We'll have to agree to disagree here, sinosleep. Singularity is a cool power, particularly on Normal, but compared to an ability to slow down time, boost accuracy, boost movement speed, boost resilance, boost weapon damage, with a 3 sec cooldown? They're not even in the same league.