202 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
In ME (Insanity - immunity spamfest) Soldier is vastly inferior to Adept in terms of killing speed and CC (unless you had Singularity Soldier or something like that), yet I enjoyed Soldier more. I did not care I could play through the game faster with an Adept.

I'm not just talking about how fast things kill. Entirely seperate to the issue of Singularity Soldiers, which, to all intents and purposes, weren't that far behind Adepts in terms of CC, Soldiers had insane resilance - on my Commando Soldier playthrough I actually ended up melee'ing a Thresher to death thanks to immunity.

As you say, they were different, but were packing similar levels of potency. The balance is not the same as it was in ME1. I'm somewhat grateful that the classes aren't as cartoon-like as they were back then of course, but I did prefer the relative balance. As I say, the Engineer was the only one that fell behind all the classes in terms of potency.

IMHO Adept is not worse than Soldier in ME2, it is just different and requires different strategies and playstyle. I also do not think Adept is less effective than Soldier on Insanity. If you use your squad properly you will not shoot nearly as much as Soldier does. classes do not have to be balanced against each other since there is no PvP.
Mages are more powerful than warriors in pretty much every (SP) RPG game, yet lot of people still play Warriors.

As I said to Sinosleep, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. Ultimately the soldier is the only class in the game that manages to have both a potent class power effective against every single enemy and situation in the game *and* has a power to deal with every single defence in the game AND arguably has the best passive skill in the game AND has the greatest selection of weapons in the game.

Hence, I'm not really sure by what metric you're judging that the Soldier is equal. This isn't a question of the use of different strategies - it's a question of sheer stats. Don't get me wrong, the Adept remains my fave class in ME2 - primarily due to the physics orientated gameplay. As I say, I just wish the class balance was a little more explicit.

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

As I said to Sinosleep, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. Ultimately the soldier is the only class in the game that manages to have both a potent class power effective against every single enemy and situation in the game *and* has a power to deal with every single defence in the game AND arguably has the best passive skill in the game AND has the greatest selection of weapons in the game.

Hence, I'm not really sure by what metric you're judging that the Soldier is equal. This isn't a question of the use of different strategies - it's a question of sheer stats. Don't get me wrong, the Adept remains my fave class in ME2 - primarily due to the physics orientated gameplay. As I say, I just wish the class balance was a little more explicit.

Except that you're talking about the ability as if it's a direct damage ability when it's a buff. The whole, every single enemy and situation in the game, gives it away. Of course it's not as adversely affected as direct damage abilities by different defenses. And you also have to take into account that as I said earlier, it's also pretty much the soldier's lone active ability. Even on normal concussive shot is underwhelming, so AR kinda has to pick up the slack based on what the soldier is.

On normal an adept has more readily available versions of pull and throw on sub 2 second cool downs and singularity is even better than it is on insanity. I really don't see the gulf being any where near as wide you think it is, particularly not when you take squadmates into account. There's no way in hell a soldier on normal can take out 3 mobs on quicker than pull field heavy warp will. With proper use of squadmates a soldier with AR isn't going to take out a group of shielded enemies on insanity quicker than area overload, area pull, heavy warp will either. The list goes on and on and on. Soldiers are a strong class, but I don't see them being head an shoulders above any otehr class. Especially not on the difficulty upon which the game is balanced. Adepts REALLY stand out on that difficulty.

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:02 .

[The Spamming Troll]

jaegerbane, your absolutely right. everything i read from you makes perfect sense to me, i dont know why other people are so stubborn about keeping their RPGs the way there used to their RPGs. ME isnt like your old RPGs. ME is surely not oblivion. oblivion is a pile of steamy fecal matter compared to ME. by no means did i want to reference oblivion for compareing classes. besides the great points brought up by jaegman, id also like to mention that every class plays essentially the same, not just vnaguards playing like vangaurds. maybe its just the way i play but most of my characters follow along the same priorities. i feel like each class plays itself the same way, your just using similar abilities just with different names. ill take one CC ability, one debuff ability, and one ammo mod and make those my primarily used abilities. maybe you use a few CC abilites, but with global cooldown whats the point of having 1a and 1b? this is why i think classes should be eliminated. besides their signature move, they all essentially do that same thing.



tho i do like the concept of giving us classes but allowing the players themselves to choose what abilities the sentinel should have instead of being forced to play biowares "sentinel."



"with proper use of squadmates" - this is a rediculouse statement. im playing this game to destroy things as shepard. not to set up warp explosions for thane. theres situations for everything and anything. obviously. the problem i see doesnt lye in how well i use my squadmates abilites.

[numotsbane]

Jaegerbane wrote...

the only class in the game that manages to have both a potent class power effective against every single enemy and situation in the game *and* has a power to deal with every single defence in the game AND arguably has the best passive skill in the game AND has the greatest selection of weapons in the game.

...You're talking about a Sentinel with GPS, right?

right?

but really, I think you're overestimating soldier play here. Soldier do have a jack of all trades ability in AR, but ultimately all it does is make them shoot and run better - it is consistently useful, but it won't be as useful in specific situations. AR, and drone, are like L3 implants. the rest are L2s, which can be a pain sometimes but at others are massively more useful. Barriers? - and don't say concussive shot, its rubbish and you know it. a 6s cooldown with minimal damage is not effective by any measure. Very arguably... have you seen how little scanning you have to do with the research discounts engineers get? none. thats totes a badass passive right there.

There are bonus powers and bonus weapons available, and we can use these to cover class weaknesses and improve class strengths. that levels the playing field a bit.

Though whats the obsession with equality anyway? none of the classes are unfair or difficult. none of them got whacked with the nerf stick (you could say adept, from me1, yeah, but that was called for).

numot.

[Arhka]

JaegerBane wrote...

sinosleep wrote...
On what difficulty is the level of power between an adept and a soldier severely skewed in the direction of the soldier? I don't think class balance is lacking anywhere near as badly as you seem to think it is.

We'll have to agree to disagree here, sinosleep. Singularity is a cool power, particularly on Normal, but compared to an ability to slow down time, boost accuracy, boost movement speed, boost resilance, boost weapon damage, with a 3 sec cooldown? They're not even in the same league.

Yes, but you cannot completely stun lock an enemy while killing the others. Adrenaline Rush implies focused fire. Sure, you'll take things down faster, but you won't be able to multi-task as much. All in all, its two different approaches. 

[The Spamming Troll]

numotsbane wrote...
t? none. that totes a badass passive right there.
There are bonus powers and bonus weapons available, and we can use these to cover class weaknesses and improve class strengths. that levels the playing field a bit.
Though whats the obsession with equality anyway? none of the classes are unfair or difficult. none of them got whacked with the nerf stick (you could say adept, from me1, yeah, but that was called for).
numot.

bonus powers only add to my point of every class following essentially the same formula. you take what fills your weakness. do you need more protection, a debuff or a CC? but really every class just spams their unique ability.

i mean why use any other button when you can just hit Y?

[numotsbane]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

bonus powers only add to my point of every class following essentially the same formula. you take what fills your weakness. do you need more protection, a debuff or a CC? but really every class just spams their unique ability.

i mean why use any other button when you can just hit Y?

maybe as a soldier. and only maybe. and only if you plan on playing like a rook.

dominate doesn't cover an engineers weakness. Flash doesn't cover a sentinels weakness. etc. I've had issues with the 'spam the unique ability' argument before. theres a reason they gave the class a unique ability. its because its good, and its useful, and it differentiates the classes further than ME1. why would there be an issue with using it often? What exactly is wrong with that? I mean, its not like its the only power you use...

[The Spamming Troll]

so when your playing as an adept and you see a few enemies, whats the reason to not use singularity?

ive no complaint about spamming one individual power continuously for a 20 hour game, its seems like a perfect idea.

what im saying is why not let me spam singularity when im using the revenant? why not let me charge while cloaked? i can have fun playing the vanguard or the infiltrator, but i guarantee you id be playing this game alot more if my choices in abilities werent limited by the word "class."

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 septembre 2010 - 02:16 .

[sinosleep]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

"with proper use of squadmates" - this is a rediculouse statement. im playing this game to destroy things as shepard. not to set up warp explosions for thane. theres situations for everything and anything. obviously. the problem i see doesnt lye in how well i use my squadmates abilites.

That statement was ridiculous. This is a A SQUAD BASED GAME guy, properly using your squad is part of the game. The fact that you have to mod your game to solo makes that face pretty friggen clear. So if an adept or sentinel benefits more from squadmates (and they do since soldiers offer less synergy) then it's an advantage that should be used. And I do. I make frequent use of my squad to supplement my own skills to move through the game quicker.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...
Except that you're talking about the ability as if it's a direct damage ability when it's a buff. The whole, every single enemy and situation in the game, gives it away. Of course it's not as adversely affected as direct damage abilities by different defenses. And you also have to take into account that as I said earlier, it's also pretty much the soldier's lone active ability. Even on normal concussive shot is underwhelming, so AR kinda has to pick up the slack based on what the soldier is.

And what relevance does the distinction between buffs and direct damage have? They're both class powers. Both unique. Both intended to function in co-operation with each class' focus. The idea that since AR is a buff it somehow has license to be 'better' is a *very* shaky argument, sinosleep - it doesn't have any basis beyond your own opinion of buffs. Not to mention the fact that Singularity isn't really a direct damage power at all. It's a CC ability.

As for the whole 'AR has to pick up the slack'... give me a break. Aside from concussive the other powers don't have any effect on cooldowns whatsoever and *massively* boost the soldier's firepower. What reasoning is there for the 3 sec cooldown in the face of that? The only mediocre power the soldier has is concussive. If you're reasoning that AR's power is to make up for *one medicore power* then logically Adepts should be no different, as Shockwave doesn't exactly set the world on fire either.

On normal an adept has more readily available versions of pull and throw on sub 2 second cool downs and singularity is even better than it is on insanity. I really don't see the gulf being any where near as wide you think it is, particularly not when you take squadmates into account. There's no way in hell a soldier on normal can take out 3 mobs on quicker than pull field heavy warp will. With proper use of squadmates a soldier with AR isn't going to take out a group of shielded enemies on insanity quicker than area overload, area pull, heavy warp will either. The list goes on and on and on. Soldiers are a strong class, but I don't see them being head an shoulders above any otehr class. Especially not on the difficulty upon which the game is balanced. Adepts REALLY stand out on that difficulty.

I'm not going to debate whether soldiers have better CC ability, sinosleep. That isn't the question I'm putting forward. Soldiers do have *some* CC thanks to Cryo Ammo and Concussive but yeah, they fall behind Adepts, as they should do, in that regard. The problem is they pull forward - *far* forward - in every category *other* than CC. I would expect the Soldier to do this in terms of firepower and kill speed, of course - I draw the line when soldiers actually pull forward in terms of defence stripping, boss killing, timed situations, mobility and a host of other esoteric situations where there isn't really any good reason as to why they should be so superior beyond the simple fact that Bioware wanted them to be more potent than they were in ME1.

You also try to bring in Warp Explosions and speak of them as something that only the Adept can do, which is flagrantly false. You don't even have to be a biotic class to set up a warp explosion - just use the correct squadmates as you frequently point out. No matter what squad mates I bring the Adept will never be able to achieve what the soldier can manage thanks to AR.

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

And what relevance does the distinction between buffs and direct damage have? They're both class powers. Both unique. Both intended to function in co-operation with each class' focus. The idea that since AR is a buff it somehow has license to be 'better' is a *very* shaky argument, sinosleep - it doesn't have any basis beyond your own opinion of buffs. Not to mention the fact that Singularity isn't really a direct damage power at all. It's a CC ability.

As for the whole 'AR has to pick up the slack'... give me a break. Aside from concussive the other powers don't have any effect on cooldowns whatsoever and *massively* boost the soldier's firepower. What reasoning is there for the 3 sec cooldown in the face of that? The only mediocre power the soldier has is concussive. If you're reasoning that AR's power is to make up for *one medicore power* then logically Adepts should be no different, as Shockwave doesn't exactly set the world on fire either.

The releveance is that you talk about it in terms of it being effective in every situation. OF COURSE it is, it's a buff. It's not going to be adversely affected by anything the game can throw at you because the game isn't reacting to anything. Just like Athenau told you in the other thread, you act as if you can just stand out in the open all day with AR and laugh at your enemies when that's NOT the case.

As far as the direct damage thing I used the term because I don't really know how else to phrase it. Active abilities isn't it cause AR is an active ability. What I was getting at is basically abilities you actually throw at enemies. Singularity, push, throw, warp, inceinerate, overload, that kind of ability. The soldier is SORELY lacking in that area which IMO is a large part of why they went with ammo powers in the first place. To give soldiers something to drop points into. That's why I think AR works the way AR works. Cause the soldier has no real powers to speak of.

I'm not going to debate whether soldiers have better CC ability, sinosleep. That isn't the question I'm putting forward. Soldiers do have *some* CC thanks to Cryo Ammo and Concussive but yeah, they fall behind Adepts, as they should do, in that regard. The problem is they pull forward - *far* forward - in every category *other* than CC. I would expect the Soldier to do this in terms of firepower and kill speed, of course - I draw the line when soldiers actually pull forward in terms of defence stripping, boss killing, timed situations, mobility and a host of other esoteric situations where there isn't really any good reason as to why they should be so superior beyond the simple fact that Bioware wanted them to be more potent than they were in ME1.

You also try to bring in Warp Explosions and speak of them as something that only the Adept can do, which is flagrantly false. You don't even have to be a biotic class to set up a warp explosion - just use the correct squadmates as you frequently point out. No matter what squad mates I bring the Adept will never be able to achieve what the soldier can manage thanks to AR.

Except I'm not just talking about CC. Did you COMPLETELY ignore the part where I mentioned a biotic can kill groups quicker than a soldier can in the right situation? You say they pull forward by these ridiculous amounts when clearly I don't think they do. Then again we've had this arguement before and really neither of us is going to change our minds. You think soldiers stand alone at the top of the mountain and I don't. That's not going to change regardless of what either of us says.

If you're going to try to sping that arguement about warp I can spin it about ammo, cause your squad mates can bring that to the table as well, same as they can bring crappier versions of warp explosions. The difference between an adept or a sentinel using warp explosions is that since they can control aspects of the explosion themselves they are BETTER at it than depending entirely on your squad to activate them. It's why I mentioned HEAVY WARP instead of the unstable version that anyone making heavy use of sqaud warp explosions is going to be using since it's got a 9 second CD instead of a 12 second CD.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[JaegerBane]

numotsbane wrote...
...You're talking about a Sentinel with GPS, right?
right?

What do sentinels have to do with this? *Obviously* a sentinel also has an ability to deal with every defence - versatility is their signature capability. Soldiers are firepower and have capabilities in that regard... but they *also* have every defence covered. That's my issue with it.

but really, I think you're overestimating soldier play here. Soldier do have a jack of all trades ability in AR, but ultimately all it does is make them shoot and run better - it is consistently useful, but it won't be as useful in specific situations. AR, and drone, are like L3 implants. the rest are L2s, which can be a pain sometimes but at others are massively more useful. Barriers? - and don't say concussive shot, its rubbish and you know it. a 6s cooldown with minimal damage is not effective by any measure.

Shoot, aim, damage and run better, actually. Given that this is a combat/shooter orientated game, taking on 'all it does' in front of an advantage that helps them majorly in every single aspect of the game doesn't make it any less effective.

As for concussive - It's not like the 40% increase in damage and increases in accuracy AR hands out for giggles somehow make you weak. Concussive simply adds a cherry on the cake in that, 'just in case', you have an anti-barrier ability for any time where AR would be overkill.

[arguably... have you seen how little scanning you have to do with the research discounts engineers getnone. thats totes a badass passive right there.

Oh please, an advantage in planet-scanning? You're actually bringing up something like that in the discussion about class balance?

There are bonus powers and bonus weapons available, and we can use these to cover class weaknesses and improve class strengths. that levels the playing field a bit.

What has this got to do with class balances? The soldier gets this ability the same as everyone else.

Though whats the obsession with equality anyway? none of the classes are unfair or difficult. none of them got whacked with the nerf stick (you could say adept, from me1, yeah, but that was called for).
numot.

As I said before, your choice of class shouldn't be a difficulty psuedo-choice. It kind of renders the concept of class choice slightly pointless.

As for ME1 Adepts - I agree Singularity back then needed some balance. But I'm sick and tired of developers resorting to the nuclear option every time they try to re-balance something. It needed a nerf. IT didn't need to be rendered into a slighlty AoE stasis.

[numotsbane]

I Don't like block quoting arguments because it takes up space. So the points Jaeger has raised are:

1. That ME2 is a shooting focused, and the soldier gets the best buff to shooting.
2. That Soldiers get the same benefit from bonus powers/ weapon choice as every other class
3. That because classes have different inherent difficulties, it 'renders the concept of class choice slightly pointless'
4. That singularity was over-nerfed to an AoE Stasis in ME2
(jaegerBane, I'm not really keen on a 'thats not what I meant/ said' disagreement, if you want me to change the wording of these just ask and I'll edit this post)

I would suggest:

1. That this doesn't quite follow. Soldiers get none of the active anti-defence powers or cc powers of other classes. Other classes, however, do get guns. and they can all use them quite competently. I would disagree that advantage AR gives exceeds just how useful active class talents are for the other classes. to give a clean but imprecise math example of what i'm trying to say:
Soldier
Shooting Score: 10/10
Active Talent Score: 1/10
Another class
Shooting Score: 5/10
Active Talent Score: 8/10
Those scores aren't designed to be accurate. they just illustrate my point.

2. Soldiers do not, (because of the particular soldier playstyle and the class passive bonuses) gain as much as other particular classes from the ability to choose a bonus power. I would definitely say that this is a strongly held view of mine, and i've done a fair bit of bonus power testing.

3. I just generally disagree with that.

4. I also just generally disagree with that.

cool cool.
Numot.

Modifié par numotsbane, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:45 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...
The releveance is that you talk about it in terms of it being effective in every situation. OF COURSE it is, it's a buff. It's not going to be adversely affected by anything the game can throw at you because the game isn't reacting to anything. Just like Athenau told you in the other thread, you act as if you can just stand out in the open all day with AR and laugh at your enemies when that's NOT the case.

This is what you're not recognising - it's only relevant because you say so. There is nothing inherent to the concept of a buff that means that it's effective in every situation, or that it can be made so without an impact on balance. Just look at stuff like Cloak and Tech Armour. Cloak and Charge bring with them some potent advantages balanced with significant drawbacks which can easily lead to Shepard getting killed if they aren't deployed in the right way. Tech armour, on the other hand, has a mountain of advantages with the proviso that you can only benefit from some them at once together with a punishing cooldown.

AR has none of this. It's tied with things like Throw in terms of cooldown, for god's sake. It boosts the player in every way at the same time and is never a bad choice. The fact that it's a buff and not a CC ability is completely irrelevant no matter how much you claim it is, as such a claim simply isn't supported by the other abilities in game.

As far as the direct damage thing I used the term because I don't really know how else to phrase it. Active abilities isn't it cause AR is an active ability. What I was getting at is basically abilities you actually throw at enemies. Singularity, push, throw, warp, inceinerate, overload, that kind of ability. The soldier is SORELY lacking in that area which IMO is a large part of why they went with ammo powers in the first place. To give soldiers something to drop points into. That's why I think AR works the way AR works. Cause the soldier has no real powers to speak of.

What difference does it make that the soldier has no power to throw at enemies? What effect do you think this has on balance? He carries more guns then anyone and there isn't even an ability in the game that would be better to throw then trigger AR again.

Except I'm not just talking about CC. Did you COMPLETELY ignore the part where I mentioned a biotic can kill groups quicker than a soldier can in the right situation? You say they pull forward by these ridiculous amounts when clearly I don't think they do. Then again we've had this arguement before and really neither of us is going to change our minds. You think soldiers stand alone at the top of the mountain and I don't. That's not going to change regardless of what either of us says.

No, sinosleep, I didn't ignore it at all - it should really have been clear that I didn't when I mentioned warp explosions.

I don't doubt that you're going to refuse to accept anything other than the soldier's balance is fine, and for what it's worth, I respect the fact that you're just agreeing to disagree.

All I'm pointing out, however, is that from the actual facts displayed from the game, the stats of the powers, the number of situations they are useful in, relative cooldowns etc, AR is out of whack with the other powers. So far your argument seems to rest entirely on the basis that AR is a buff and therefore there is no balance question - something which I personally don't think even makes sense, let alone is relevant.

If you're going to try to sping that arguement about warp I can spin it about ammo, cause your squad mates can bring that to the table as well, same as they can bring crappier versions of warp explosions. The difference between an adept or a sentinel using warp explosions is that since they can control aspects of the explosion themselves they are BETTER at it than depending entirely on your squad to activate them. It's why I mentioned HEAVY WARP instead of the unstable version that anyone making heavy use of sqaud warp explosions is going to be using since it's got a 9 second CD instead of a 12 second CD.

The difference is that squadmate ammo powers are, on average, 20% less effective than improved evolutions, and some lack special abilities (such as Inferno's AoE), and one of the most effective squad ammos in the game (Cryo) isn't available entirely.

Squadmate warp explosions take a bit more time to recharge, yes, but conversely, unlike ones involving shepard, are instacast and therefore immune to screw-ups with the environment (such as problems with projectile travel time or enemy movement).

They aren't in the same boat by any sensible analysis. The whole business about 'HEAVY WARP' is meaningless - what you choose to give your squadmates has got sod all to do with class balance - it's another red herring that you insist on bringing into the equation no matter how irrelevant it is.

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

JaegerBane wrote...

sinosleep wrote...
On what difficulty is the level of power between an adept and a soldier severely skewed in the direction of the soldier? I don't think class balance is lacking anywhere near as badly as you seem to think it is.

We'll have to agree to disagree here, sinosleep. Singularity is a cool power, particularly on Normal, but compared to an ability to slow down time, boost accuracy, boost movement speed, boost resilance, boost weapon damage, with a 3 sec cooldown? They're not even in the same league.

This. I still think the Engineer's combat drone, for example, could've simply been fixed by allowing us to have 2-3 active combat drones at once. In most instances keeping one enemy busy doesn't help that much in the overall fight, since you've still got about a dozen enemies pinning you down with ridiculous accuracy. Goes for some other classes, as well. Also, I think it's really unfair for the sentinel to get a 30% cooldown reduction for both biotic and tech powers. If at all, he should have a bigger cooldown for both powers since he is neither a biotic nor a tech expert, but rather something in between. As it is, you can just take a Sentinel and have far more fun with tech powers than an Engineer.

[sinosleep]

@JaegerBane

1. when is cloaking or using tech armor a bad idea? When can deploying tech armor or cloak get you killed in and of themselves? When can drone? An ability not having a time during which it's not a good idea to use it doesn't inherently make it overpowered. The only ability that actually fits that portion of your argument is charge, due to charging into groups to big to take on.

2. The difference it makes with the soldier having no other powers is that when you're stuck doing one thing over and over that one thing had best be friggen awesome. The smaller the number of abilities a class has the better those abilities should be.

3. A bit more time is the only difference you see between player led warp bombs and squad led warp bombs? You call 3 times the CD rate a BIT more time? They absolutely are in the same boat as ammo powers. They don't do as much damage, and you can't pull them off as often. And discussing better synergy with squadmates in what's a squad based game is NOT a red herring. It's part of how other classes get a one up on the soldier.

@BlackbirdSR-71C

Three drones at a time would trivialize the game. Most situations in the game you get hit with maybe 6 guys, taking half of them out of the fight in one go would be ridiculous. And when it comes to subbosses who has an easier time than the engineer? Want to fist fight a YMIR mech while not taking any damage? Spam drone.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:41 .

[JaegerBane]

numotsbane wrote...

I Don't like block quoting arguments because it takes up space. So the points Jaeger has raised are:

1. That ME2 is a shooting focused, and the soldier gets the best buff to shooting.
2. That Soldiers get the same benefit from bonus powers/ weapon choice as every other class
3. That because classes have different inherent difficulties, it 'renders the concept of class choice slightly pointless'
4. That singularity was over-nerfed to an AoE Stasis in ME2
(jaegerBane, I'm not really keen on a 'thats not what I meant/ said' disagreement, if you want me to change the wording of these just ask and I'll edit this post)

Generally speaking numotsbane, if you don't like that kind of argument then don't paraphrase the other's points, as it'll inevitably turn into that kind of argument.

I would suggest:

1. That this doesn't quite follow. Soldiers get none of the active anti-defence powers or cc powers of other classes. Other classes, however, do get guns. and they can all use them quite competently. I would disagree that advantage AR gives exceeds just how useful active class talents are for the other classes. to give a clean but imprecise math example of what i'm trying to say:
Soldier
Shooting Score: 10/10
Active Talent Score: 1/10
Another class
Shooting Score: 5/10
Active Talent Score: 8/10
Those scores aren't designed to be accurate. they just illustrate my point.

To be honest, I haven't got a clue what point you're trying to make here with all these magic numbers. I'm not claiming that other classes 'don't get guns' nor does the soldier get more CC powers or whatever. My point is that AR boosts every single aspect of gameplay, something that no other power in the game confers - and yet, the soldier carries with it a slew of other powers that punch through all defences and provide some CC apparently for no more reason than badassery.  That's it.

2. Soldiers do not, (because of the particular soldier playstyle and the class passive bonuses) gain as much as other particular classes from the ability to choose a bonus power. I would definitely say that this is a strongly held view of mine, and i've done a fair bit of bonus power testing.

They get to pick from the same pool, numotsbane. They aren't subject to any kind of nerf or restriction compared to other classes in this regard. Common sense would imply that if they don't get as much from this as other classes do despite it being equally available, then clearly, they're ahead in terms of effectiveness to begin with.

3. I just generally disagree with that.

4. I also just generally disagree with that.

cool cool.
Numot.

Fair enough to 3, though I would point out that class choice is supposed to be a choice of how to play the game. Conflating difficulty with playstyle essentially damages gameplay. You think Starcraft would have been anywhere near as popular if one race was clearly just 'better' than the other two?

4... I'm not really sure what you mean by 'I disagree'. Are you implying Singularity in ME2 actually works like ME1's?

[Kronner]

heh StarCraft 2 is a MP game, Mass Effect is not. Seriously, you guys are arguing that because Soldier has all ammo types and is by far the most efficient shooter in the game it somehow makes Adept, Engineer and god knows what suck. Guess what? Adepts do not suck. Neither do Engineers. Different playstyles, different experiences. Neither is better, more efficient is arguable, as some may prefer power usage over shooting etc.
Comparing this to StarCraft, which is MP game is hilarious.

Modifié par Kronner, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

@JaegerBane

1. when is cloaking or using tech armor a bad idea?

Cloaking - when you're in the middle of several enemies and you don't have the option of falling back?
Tech Armour - When you want to use a power?

When can deploying tech armor or cloak get you killed in and of themselves?

Given that cloak wipes out health/shield regen, as well as medi-gel, it should be self-evident when it can get you killed. Tech armour's hit to your cooldowns basically wipes out any chance of using a power straight away - on a class as dependant on powers as the Sentinel is, that too should be self-evident.

Both become an issue when you're dealing with multiple opponents at close range and you don't have an easy way to back off. Do I need to start listing the situations where this can arise or can you figure that out for yourself?

When can drone? An ability not having a time during which it's not a good idea to use it doesn't inherently make it overpowered. The only ability that actually fits that portion of your argument is charge, due to charging into groups to big to take on.

What does drone have to do with this? A minute ago you were claiming that thrown powers and buffs can't really be adequately compared, now you're trying to compare AR to drone?

2. The difference it makes with the soldier having no other powers is that when you're stuck doing one thing over and over that one thing had best be friggen awesome. The smaller the number of abilities a class has the better those abilities should be.

And again, we're back to this idea that the soldier is loaded with pointless abilities. I don't know where you've got this weird idea from but ultimately, it doesn't make any sense. The only power the soldier has that isn't that great is Concussive, and even then, it has the odd use. It carries with it 3 of the best ammo powers in the game, and they don't even impact the soldier's cooldown at all.

3. A bit more time is the only difference you see between player led warp bombs and squad led warp bombs? You call 3 times the CD rate a BIT more time? They absolutely are in the same boat as ammo powers. They don't do as much damage, and you can't pull them off as often. And discussing better synergy with squadmates in what's a squad based game is NOT a red herring. It's part of how other classes get a one up on the soldier.

Uh, yeah, I do, when the CD time is a matter of seconds. You talk as if it takes 10 minutes for the squadmate's abilities to recharge. It's not like the soldier can't do anything in the mean time.

The extra damage you keep banging on about is a matter of how you build your squadmates. Obviously Shepard will always do a bit more damage due to his passive but you're making out that there is some colossal gulf between the two.

The 'red herring' is the business about Heavy vs Unstable Warp - a choice that has nothing to do with the idea that the Adept is somehow the king of warp explosions, that he alone can wield them in the same way the soldier is alone in wielding AR. If you want to see what can happen with squadmate explosions, look at some of AverageGatsby's Adepting through Insanity videos. In those videos his Adept spends more time removing barriers and yet he still relies on one explosion after the other irrespective of the time difference thanks purely to squadmates. He could have had Reave on a bloody engineer and still managed the same performance.

Until you can show me a video where can achieve the sheer boost of AR by having some squdmates along in the same way, there isn't much more to discuss.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:22 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

heh StarCraft 2 is a MP game, Mass Effect is not. Seriously, you guys are arguing that because Soldier has all ammo types and is by far the most efficient shooter in the game it somehow makes Adept, Engineer and god knows what suck. Guess what? Adepts do not suck. Neither do Engineers. Different playstyles, different experiences. Neither is better, more efficient is arguable, as some may prefer power usage over shooting etc.
Comparing this to StarCraft, which is MP game is hilarious.

Kronner, I can't be bothered to bring you up to speed as to what the debate is about. Just read the posts. This is not a discussion about how Adepts suck because of ammo powers or whatever.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:14 .

[JaegerBane]

BlackbirdSR-71C wrote...
This. I still think the Engineer's combat drone, for example, could've simply been fixed by allowing us to have 2-3 active combat drones at once. In most instances keeping one enemy busy doesn't help that much in the overall fight, since you've still got about a dozen enemies pinning you down with ridiculous accuracy. Goes for some other classes, as well. Also, I think it's really unfair for the sentinel to get a 30% cooldown reduction for both biotic and tech powers. If at all, he should have a bigger cooldown for both powers since he is neither a biotic nor a tech expert, but rather something in between. As it is, you can just take a Sentinel and have far more fun with tech powers than an Engineer.

Actually, in defence of the sentinel, I will point out that the Sent would be unfairly nerfed without that cooldown reduction - they're the only class in the game with a 12 sec cooldown class power.

I do agree the Sentinel feels a little too effective with his biotics and tech for a class that is allegedly supposed to be a jack of all trades master of none, but I don't think cooldowns are the culprit. I think it's more to do with the selection of powers. I'm fairly sure a Sentinel with shockwave instead of Throw and AI Hacking instead of Cryo would be far less of supremo then the current class structure is.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:13 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

Kronner, I can't be bothered to bring you up to speed as to what the debate is about. Just read the posts. This is not a discussion about how Adepts suck because of ammo powers or whatever.

I have read all the posts. From what I understand, you think Adept is not as good (powerful, efficient, whatever) as Soldier. That is simply not the case, Adept just plays differently. If you use your squad (and right combination for each mission allows you to strip whatever defences are present - just by using your squad powers) properly, Adept can toy with whatever (s)he wants. I thought that by now with so many great Insanity Adept vids on YT everyone would be convinced that they are VERY good. Head to head comparison with Soldier is pointless, you never encounter Soldier class character in the game.

Modifié par Kronner, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[sinosleep]

@JaegerBane

1. Don't pretend that you haven't seen the sentinel videos with them bum rushing everything with tech armor, it blowing up, and them simply recasting it. Even with the 12 second CD if you have tech armor precast, and you should, it takes some doing for enemies to shoot off your tech armor, get staggered, shoot off your tech armor again, and manage to kill you before you can kill them. SOME sentinel builds are heavily reliant on powers, assault sentinels are reliant on tech armor and guns. So I don't buy that when you want to use a power argument.

As for cloak, how often are you in a situation in which 6 seconds of cloak (or more) isn't enough to find cover? I mean seriously. Unless you are purposely getting yourself surrounded by 5 and 6 husks at a time this happens practically never.

2. I brought up drone because you're acting as if a power not getting you killed make it OP.

3. When did I ever say they were pointless? Please do quote me. Oh wait you can't cause I didn't. They're not active abilities though, you fire and forget them. How often are you switching ammo on a mission? The only active powers are concussive shot and adrenaline rush. Clearly the soldier is designed with using AR over it's other abilities (because the vast majority aren't active and its on a tiny CD) on a regular basis and so it works the way it does.

4. You dismissed ammo powers on squad mates because they do 20% less damage. I can guarantee you that in those seconds (which is 3 times the CD) of difference between player led and squad led warp bombsI can easily do 20% more damage and thus we're at the same point.

You can dismiss it all you want, but other classes have better synergy with squadmates than soldiers do. That's a fact.

Without taking bonus talents into account a soldier can pull off at best 1 warp bomb every 9 seconds

with slam they have to have spectacular timing (only 1.5 second lift time at max) in order to set off warp bombs and you have to take into account that even though squad cast are instacast they don't always cast when you tell them to. If they are getting shot, shooting themselves, or basically doing anything other than just sitting there they don't cast exactly when you tell them to

a sentinel can get off 2 warp bombs (with heavy warp to boot) every 7 seconds or so with jack and samara on board.

You mean to tell me that's not going to result in 20% more damage? 

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[Kronner]

Sentinel's Armor has CD of 6 (5.7-8 when I measured in VirtualDub) seconds when you have the tech CD upgrade and Guardian passive skill, changing Throw to Shockwave and Cryo Blast to AI hacking (like JaegerBane said) would make NO difference at all. Does anyone feel that Soldier is just gimped Sentinel? Because in a way, it may be considered that way by some people. Sentinel does less weapon damage than Soldier but on the other hand Sentinel has powers against everything, does not have to take cover at all thans to Tech Armor - this allows Sentinel to shoot all the time. Once again, just different playstyles, you can't directly compare the two classes.

Modifié par Kronner, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:39 .

[numotsbane]

Jaegerbane wrote...

To be honest, I haven't got a clue what point you're trying to make here with all these magic numbers. I'm not claiming that other classes 'don't get guns' nor does the soldier get more CC powers or whatever. My point is that AR boosts every single aspect of gameplay, something that no other power in the game confers - and yet, the soldier carries with it a slew of other powers that punch through all defences and provide some CC apparently for no more reason than badassery. That's it.

I refuse to believe you lack the necessary intelligence to understand what I'm trying to say. I re-read most of the posts from the last 2 pages and I get the impression you haven't played through as a soldier multiple times on insanity. correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not trying to say AR is bad, in fact I'm not even trying to say that singularity/etc is a better class power. But I do think that the soldier is not overpowered.

What I'm getting at is this: All the classes shoot, and shoot well. five of those classes can do things other than shooting. that means that the one class that is left has to be noticeably better at shooting to be on par with the other classes. Hence the one, multi-purpose 'improve your shooting' power.

You say that no other power boosts 'every aspect' this way. and theres a really good reason for that: no other class only has one power to rely on. Is that understandable? Do we need further clarification?

JaegerBane wrote...

They get to pick from the same pool, numotsbane. They aren't subject to any kind of nerf or restriction compared to other classes in this regard. Common sense would imply that if they don't get as much from this as other classes do despite it being equally available, then clearly, they're ahead in terms of effectiveness to begin with.

Well here is one case where common sense implies the wrong thing sadly.