202 réponses à ce sujet

[Khuutra]

Now hold on just a minute.

I came into this thread with the specific impression that this would not be about talking down the abilities of the Adept (which I am terrible at playing but which is still very fun).

I have been misled, sirs and madames. This scandal will not go undocumented, nor will it go unavenged!

[numotsbane]

Bizarrely we're mainly just talking about soldiers. Which is about as far from the OP as you could get without dragging leprechauns in here.

[sinosleep]

Khuutra wrote...

Now hold on just a minute.

I came into this thread with the specific impression that this would not be about talking down the abilities of the Adept (which I am terrible at playing but which is still very fun).

I have been misled, sirs and madames. This scandal will not go undocumented, nor will it go unavenged!

It didn't start out that way. I did post a sentinel video that went along with the op though, so that makes everything all better. :happy:

[Mr_Raider]

Kronner wrote...

. Sentinel does less weapon damage than Soldier but on the other hand Sentinel has powers against everything, does not have to take cover at all thans to Tech Armor - this allows Sentinel to shoot all the time. Once again, just different playstyles, you can't directly compare the two classes.

Tech armor is not a license for stupidity. Sentinels still need to take cover.

[Khuutra]

sinosleep wrote...

It didn't start out that way. I did post a sentinel video that went along with the op though, so that makes everything all better. :happy:

That.... that was a pretty good vid is what that was. Kudos.

It kind of illustrates why I prefer Adepts for Warpsplosions, though: Singularity is just way better for setting up enemies to explode other enemies. I'm actually on my first Adept runthrough, and I have set off some ridiculous explosions in very rapid succession.

[sinosleep]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Kronner wrote...

. Sentinel does less weapon damage than Soldier but on the other hand Sentinel has powers against everything, does not have to take cover at all thans to Tech Armor - this allows Sentinel to shoot all the time. Once again, just different playstyles, you can't directly compare the two classes.

Tech armor is not a license for stupidity. Sentinels still need to take cover.

They need to take cover, but they do get an unrivaled amount of time out of cover compared to other classes. Like I said, if you have tech armor already on, an enemies have to destroy your tech armor, destroy another round of shields from after it explodes, destroy tech armor AGAIN, destroy another round of shields after it explodes, to finally get to health and kill you. At that point you shouldn't be able to recast even with all the upgrades, but having had to fight through all of those shields in order to get there in the first place unless a sentinel is trying to fight off huge groups of guys he should have killed enough folks to get to cover and recast for a 3rd time restating the cycle.

[Kronner]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Tech armor is not a license for stupidity. Sentinels still need to take cover.

Sometimes - yes. Most of the time? No. By rarely taking cover you increase your damage output. Still not as good as Soldier, but then again, Sentinels have everything - tech and biotics.

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

@JaegerBane

1. Don't pretend that you haven't seen the sentinel videos with them bum rushing everything with tech armor, it blowing up, and them simply recasting it. Even with the 12 second CD if you have tech armor precast, and you should, it takes some doing for enemies to shoot off your tech armor, get staggered, shoot off your tech armor again, and manage to kill you before you can kill them. SOME sentinel builds are heavily reliant on powers, assault sentinels are reliant on tech armor and guns. So I don't buy that when you want to use a power argument.

It's not really important whether you 'buy' it or not. You can't use powers in cooldown. No amount of assault sentinel dickery will actually change that fact. Indeed, the whole assault sentinel playstyle is a result of playing around the downside of tech armour and hence, they do not use many powers once they've engaged. You cannot play a caster and an assault sentinel at the same time for this reason. Therefore, that is the balance right there. Stick your fingers in your ears and shut your eyes if you must, but that is an example of how the tech armour is actually balanced in comparison to AR.

As for cloak, how often are you in a situation in which 6 seconds of cloak (or more) isn't enough to find cover? I mean seriously. Unless you are purposely getting yourself surrounded by 5 and 6 husks at a time this happens practically never.

This isn't a game on rails, sinosleep. How often this happens depends on how often the player lets it happen - and it is not relevant to a discussion about the balance of the powers.

2. I brought up drone because you're acting as if a power not getting you killed make it OP.

In other words, you dragged something into the discussion just for something to say in opposition, as you've been doing for several posts now. At no point did I claim a power that doesn't get you killed is OP - you know this full well. I would thank you to stick to what I actually said as oppose to straw men, please.

3. When did I ever say they were pointless?

The point where you claimed that 'Soldiers had nothing else'. Equating four powers with being 'nothing' doesn't leave a lot of room for different interpretations.

4. You dismissed ammo powers on squad mates because they do 20% less damage.

And the fact that they lack many of the special features. And the fact that some aren't available at all. You should really have remembered what I was answering here before you posted that mammoth example of why shepard's warp explosions do more overall damage than squad powers in the long run.

I'm up for a debate as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to bother when you ignore half my point and twist my words.

[JaegerBane]

numotsbane wrote...
I refuse to believe you lack the necessary intelligence to understand what I'm trying to say. I re-read most of the posts from the last 2 pages and I get the impression you haven't played through as a soldier multiple times on insanity. correct me if I'm wrong.

Consider yourself corrected, then.

You say that no other power boosts 'every aspect' this way. and theres a really good reason for that: no other class only has one power to rely on. Is that understandable? Do we need further clarification?

Yes. Perhaps you can clarify why exactly ammo powers simply aren't included in this analysis. As far as I can tell, they aren't included because, for reasons unknown, people assign worth to a power on the basis that it's cast as opposed to activated. I mean, the powers are right there. They're not invisible. They're not worthless. Some of them aren't even available from squadmates. So why are they ignored?

Well here is one case where common sense implies the wrong thing sadly.

Are you going to bother explain why, or am I to simply accept your word as holy truth?

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
I have read all the posts. From what I understand, you think Adept is not as good (powerful, efficient, whatever) as Soldier. That is simply not the case, Adept just plays differently. If you use your squad (and right combination for each mission allows you to strip whatever defences are present - just by using your squad powers) properly, Adept can toy with whatever (s)he wants.

Kronner, forgive me for being blunt but your singular response to every single balance debate is 'they're not unbalanced, they're just different'. I can't be bothered resurrecting that same argument over and over again. 

I thought that by now with so many great Insanity Adept vids on YT everyone would be convinced that they are VERY good. Head to head comparison with Soldier is pointless, you never encounter Soldier class character in the game.

At what stage in this entire thread (that you have claimed to read) have I claimed the Adept was bad?

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

At what stage in this entire thread (that you have claimed to read) have I claimed the Adept was bad?

I did not write that you claim Adept is bad. I only wrote that you claim that Adept is worse/less efficient (powerful) than Soldier. I disagree with that. They are both very efficient on Insanity and both play differently. You compare Adrenaline Rush to Singularity, which is just pointless - completly different powers. Adept might be hands down better for some people, and for others, Soldier takes the cake (and that is once again, personal preference).

[sinosleep]

@JaegerBane



1. Not playing in the caster style and not casting tech armor at all aren't the same thing. I was playing the caster style sentinel in the video I posted, I still found time to cast power armor to get the 15% power damage boost it provides.So yeah actually, you CAN cast and maintain power armor while playing a caster sentinel. If you're argument is going to be as flimsy as you can't cast powers while you're on CD well then you may as well not make the argument. You can't cast any powers while you are on CD from AR either.



2. How often it happens is relevant because YOU are the one who tried to use that as point when casting cloak wouldn't be beneficial to an infiltrator. There is no point at which casting cloak isn't beneficial to an infiltrator. And while this game isn't on rails, it does for the most part take place on large rooms with waist high boxes to hide behind. IE, places where it's kinda hard to not be able to find cover in time to make casting cloak a bad idea.



3. A large part of your argument has been that there's never a bad time to cast AR. When I countered that there are several powers that don't have a bad time to cast them you replied with situations that would get you killed as an infiltrator and vanguard. So I made the connection. If that wasn't your intention sue me.



4. I think I made it pretty clear that soldier's having nothing else is in reference to active powers.I've repeatedly mentioned how AR needs to be particularly powerful because since ammo powers are fire and forget most of your gameplay on a soldier is going to revolve around AR. Clearly I'm not the only one that feels that there's a marked difference between fire and forget powers like ammo and actually active powers like throw/warp/overload with regards to gameplay.

[The Spamming Troll]

sinosleep wrote...

@JaegerBane

1. Not playing in the caster style and not casting tech armor at all aren't the same thing. I was playing the caster style sentinel in the video I posted, I still found time to cast power armor to get the 15% power damage boost it provides.So yeah actually, you CAN cast and maintain power armor while playing a caster sentinel. If you're argument is going to be as flimsy as you can't cast powers while you're on CD well then you may as well not make the argument. You can't cast any powers while you are on CD from AR either.

2. How often it happens is relevant because YOU are the one who tried to use that as point when casting cloak wouldn't be beneficial to an infiltrator. There is no point at which casting cloak isn't beneficial to an infiltrator. And while this game isn't on rails, it does for the most part take place on large rooms with waist high boxes to hide behind. IE, places where it's kinda hard to not be able to find cover in time to make casting cloak a bad idea.

3. A large part of your argument has been that there's never a bad time to cast AR. When I countered that there are several powers that don't have a bad time to cast them you replied with situations that would get you killed as an infiltrator and vanguard. So I made the connection. If that wasn't your intention sue me.

4. I think I made it pretty clear that soldier's having nothing else is in reference to active powers.I've repeatedly mentioned how AR needs to be particularly powerful because since ammo powers are fire and forget most of your gameplay on a soldier is going to revolve around AR. Clearly I'm not the only one that feels that there's a marked difference between fire and forget powers like ammo and actually active powers like throw/warp/overload with regards to gameplay.

1. so your impressed with yourself becasue you can recast a power after it has been recharged? and you dont see a difference between 3 and 12 seconds in cooldown? any sentinel player can recast power armor if need be. you just have to sit patiently in cover while you watch those two little half circles slowly come together again. if you think tech armor and AR are comparable in that regard, then thats your opinion.

2. you can rarely walk around outside of cover? as a matter of fact id even say casual requires mostly cover based shooting. "how often it happens" is up to the player, not the level design.

3. when AR has a 3 second cooldown and a 5 second duration your esentially playing a 20 hour game in slow mo. its not the class that kills you its using charge into a crowd.

4. so you want the soldier to have MORE? your forgetting that the soldier essentailly has the BEST debuffs in this game in terms of enemy defenses. those ammo powers should be your first method of killing followed by AR. if you want to throw ammo powers under the bus for no other reason then you only use them once, then thats your proble. becasue it certainly doesnt take away from the fact that the soldier does have more then "just" AR. not to mention they have a CC in concussive shot. AND THE REVENENT!

sinosleep wrote...

Mr_Raider wrote...

Kronner wrote...

.
Sentinel does less weapon damage than Soldier but on the other hand
Sentinel has powers against everything, does not have to take cover at
all thans to Tech Armor - this allows Sentinel to shoot all the
time. Once again, just different playstyles, you can't directly compare
the two classes.

Tech armor is not a license for stupidity. Sentinels still need to take cover.

They
need to take cover, but they do get an unrivaled amount of time out of
cover compared to other classes. Like I said, if you have tech armor
already on, an enemies have to destroy your tech armor, destroy another
round of shields from after it explodes, destroy tech armor AGAIN,
destroy another round of shields after it explodes, to finally get to
health and kill you. At that point you shouldn't be able to recast even
with all the upgrades, but having had to fight through all of those
shields in order to get there in the first place unless a sentinel is
trying to fight off huge groups of guys he should have killed enough
folks to get to cover and recast for a 3rd time restating the cycle.

so
your saying a sentinel should never die becasue they have tech armor???
your kidding yourself if you think tech armor does much at all. maybe
it does have more shields but every time i lost my armor as a sentinel i
never though to myself, "wow that lasted long." as a matter of fact its
the opposite. if you lose tech armor its probably a bad idea to use it
again while in a firefight. especially when first aid can be used in
that same "im about to die moments" and has a faster cooldown.

its
not like the soldier just uses AR on repeat. some people are forgetting
that soldiers get an ability for every enemy protection. the sentinel
might have warp and electronics but the soldier has a few ammo mods for
defenses. so to say the other classes have more abilites to take care of enemies would be very wrong.

i
dont like when people bring up videos made by javier or someone who
plays a small section of a game 300 times in order to find the "fastest"
way to get through it like the collector ship. those players are far
from being the casual ME player, as is probably most of the people in
this forum. so pointing out a video of how AWESOME something
can be thats made by someone who lives and breathes ME isnt a good
representation of what classes can be. it somewhat does show that, but
to the majority of players who get ME2, they are no where near as
knowledgable about abilities and situations as some like javier.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[sinosleep]

Ok, I thought that occasionally you could be a decent poster, but clearly you are in troll mode now so the only reply with which I'll leave you is this. The entirety of your post makes no sense whatsoever.

[Kronner]

First of all, except for speedruns, which take time and with more tries come better times, there is far more "casual" play available. For Adepts, AverageGatsby made a TON of long videos, some of them covering whole missions. So much for "playing something over 300 times BS". Next, I though we are talking about Insanity here, I doubt casual player playing on Normal will complain about Adepts being too weak compared to Soldier. You post honestly makes no sense The Spamming Troll. As for Assault Armor and how strong it is, check out some videos on YT, some are even an entire missions. You rarely have to take cover and I consider Assault Armor just as powerful as Adrenaline Rush.

Modifié par Kronner, 04 septembre 2010 - 06:59 .

[sinosleep]

Also, who is Javier?

[Kronner]

sinosleep wrote...

Also, who is Javier?

Spamming Troll has mistaken Gatsby for Javier (who is a moderator here, he is the guy who put together all the ME2 info before the release).

[The Spamming Troll]

sinosleep wrote...

Ok, I thought that occasionally you could be a decent poster, but clearly you are in troll mode now so the only reply with which I'll leave you is this. The entirety of your post makes no sense whatsoever.

so your saying we cant be friends?

Kronner wrote...

First of all, except for speedruns, which
take time and with more tries come better times, there is far more
"casual" play available. For Adepts, AverageGatsby made a TON of long
videos, some of them covering whole missions. So much for "playing
something over 300 times BS". Next, I though we are talking about
Insanity here, I doubt casual player playing on Normal will complain
about Adepts being too weak compared to Soldier. You post honestly makes
no sense The Spamming Troll. As for Assault Armor and how strong it is,
check out some videos on YT, some are even an entire missions. You
rarely have to take cover and I consider Assault Armor just as powerful
as Adrenaline Rush.

how does my post not make sense? you two cant read english?

gatsby is NOT the average ME2 player. compareing his videos whether long missions or short firefights has no bearing on the fact that gatsby is far from being the average ME2 player. for someone who lives for speed runs, im sure gatbsy has played lots and lots and lots of ME2 whether on the collectors ship or rescueing an injured quarian on some random sidequest. your good at pointing out the obviouse.

i dont know you were only talking about insanity here. i meant casual player as in someone who rents ME2 not playing casual difficulty.

i couldnt care less about videos. ive played a sentinel and i know what tech armor does and doesnt do. and what it does do for the sentinel isnt nearly as important as what AR does for the soldier. you can honestly say you play ME2 without using cover???????? you must be the only one.

[Kronner]

Obviously even as an Assault Sentinel, you must take cover in SOME (against YMIR mechs for example) cases. But most of the time (I don't know, about 90% of the game maybe?) cover is not needed. How is Adrenaline Rush better than Assault Armor? AR allows you to deal insane damage and makes you take less damage. Assault Armor gives you extreme survavibility and is great CC power, knocks down any enemies that are down to health. If you have shotgun and play aggressively, you can tank through any mission and have to take cover only against YMIR mechs and Praetorians, if you screw up (fail to strip defenses in time) then obviously you have to take cover too. IMHO they are equal.

About Gatsby and average player - His videos are done on Insanity. Insanity is not intended for average/casual players. This is why I do not understand what you mean. You think Soldier is the most powerful class? Well, to you maybe, just check out the thread asking about most favourite classes, some people think Soldier is the weakest class in the game. This only proves that classes are well balanced and some people prefer this and other people that.

Modifié par Kronner, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[sinosleep]

This is my my first serious sentinel, this is my second sentinel vid, assault sentinels don't really need cover



I guess tech armor is balanced by virtue of sentinel's having abilities worth casting that they can't use as often when playing like psychos.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:20 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Kronner wrote...

Obviously even as an Assault Sentinel, you must take cover in SOME (against YMIR mechs for example) cases. But most of the time (I don't know, about 90% of the game maybe?) cover is not needed. How is Adrenaline Rush better than Assault Armor? IMHO they are equal.

About Gatsby and average player - His videos are done on Insanity. Insanity is not intended for average/casual players. This is why I do not understand what you mean. You think Soldier is the most powerful class? Well, to you maybe, just check out the thread asking about most favourite classes, some people think Soldier is the weakest class in the game. This only proves that classes are well balanced and some people prefer this and other people that.

theres no way you use cover 10% of the time just becasue you have assault armor! you even said you thought we were talking about insanity, so when you play a sentinel you use cover 10% of the time??!?!?!? maybe you dont realize how much you use cover or something but theres no way any class can avoid cover 90% of insanity. AR is perfect for a soldier becasue it makes makes what the soldier does, better. tech armor on the sentinel practically does nothing for the sentinel that first aide cant do. but i think were getting our arguments crossed here.

how can you assume insanity isnt for the average ME2 players? you think every player starts off on casual and can only get to insanity when there as hardcore as gatsby? my point is watching gatsby play an adept is completely different to watching Joe McFirsttimeplaying play an adept. so if your thinking "yeah an adept is awesome becasue gatsby showed me in some video" then your agenda isnt in order. i dont want to make things more difficult for people who play the absolute crap out of ME2 like gatsby, i want those average 1 or 2 time rental players to apreciate the abilities given to us the same way gatsby does, but without the effort.

no, i dont think a soldeir is the most powerfull class. it can be, just like a vangaurd or infiltrator can be. i really have no problem with the signature moves, i just dont see the point in only making a few abilities that serve a purpose and exclude them to 6 different classes. wahts the point of classes anyways? its not replayability becasue id replay 100% more often if i could pair my own powers together however i choose.

[The Spamming Troll]

sinosleep wrote...

This is my my first serious sentinel, this is my second sentinel vid, assault sentinels don't really need cover



I guess tech armor is balanced by virtue of sentinel's having abilities worth casting that they can't use as often when playing like psychos.

well well. i didnt think  about trying something like that. your still using cover, your just not hitting A to enter it. and when you say sentienl i didnt assume you were using the shotgun 100% of the time. and i assume you dont play and survive the entire game that way. just two minutes worth of playing balls out like that wont sway my opinion because this game doesnt allow you to play like that for 20 hours without dieing.

but your video really proves my point that the average player has no idea the capabilites of classes, let alone single abilities. ive played ME2 about 10 times and i still am not sure about the effectiveness of abilities or potency of classes. so why not just make shepard a "sentinel" and give us a listing of abilites to choose from whtere tech, biotic, or weapons.

i just dont like haivng to play 3 different classes in order to use the revenant, cloak, charge, and singularity. why not just let me put all those abilites on one character? as a matter of fact i think if ME3 wants to be the biggest and most epic of the mass effect franchise, i think the only way to do that is to take away classes and let sheaprd be whatever shepard wants to be.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Kronner]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

theres no way you use cover 10% of the time just becasue you have assault armor! you even said you thought we were talking about insanity, so when you play a sentinel you use cover 10% of the time??!?!?!? maybe you dont realize how much you use cover or something but theres no way any class can avoid cover 90% of insanity. AR is perfect for a soldier becasue it makes makes what the soldier does, better. tech armor on the sentinel practically does nothing for the sentinel that first aide cant do. but i think were getting our arguments crossed here.

That is just BS. I am sensing you have not really played as a Sentinel. Yes, the 10% is an estimate, it could be 12 or 9 lol

The Spamming Troll wrote...
how can you assume insanity isnt for the average ME2 players? you think every player starts off on casual and can only get to insanity when there as hardcore as gatsby? my point is watching gatsby play an adept is completely different to watching Joe McFirsttimeplaying play an adept. so if your thinking "yeah an adept is awesome becasue gatsby showed me in some video" then your agenda isnt in order. i dont want to make things more difficult for people who play the absolute crap out of ME2 like gatsby, i want those average 1 or 2 time rental players to apreciate the abilities given to us the same way gatsby does, but without the effort.

Read the difficulty descriptions. Normal difficulty is the baseline ME2 experience. Game is balanced around that difficulty so obviously Insanity requires specific power usage in order to be most effective. Some people may not like that - which is why there are 4 (or is it 5?) more difficulty settings.

The Spamming Troll wrote...
no, i dont think a soldeir is the most powerfull class. it can be, just like a vangaurd or infiltrator can be. i really have no problem with the signature moves, i just dont see the point in only making a few abilities that serve a purpose and exclude them to 6 different classes. wahts the point of classes anyways? its not replayability becasue id replay 100% more often if i could pair my own powers together however i choose.

Sentinel, Adept or Engineer can be just as powerful.

Modifié par Kronner, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Kronner wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

theres no way you use cover 10% of the time just becasue you have assault armor! you even said you thought we were talking about insanity, so when you play a sentinel you use cover 10% of the time??!?!?!? maybe you dont realize how much you use cover or something but theres no way any class can avoid cover 90% of insanity. AR is perfect for a soldier becasue it makes makes what the soldier does, better. tech armor on the sentinel practically does nothing for the sentinel that first aide cant do. but i think were getting our arguments crossed here.

That is just BS. I am sensing you have not really played as a Sentinel. Yes, the 10% is an estimate, it could be 12 or 9 lol

The Spamming Troll wrote...
how can you assume insanity isnt for the average ME2 players? you think every player starts off on casual and can only get to insanity when there as hardcore as gatsby? my point is watching gatsby play an adept is completely different to watching Joe McFirsttimeplaying play an adept. so if your thinking "yeah an adept is awesome becasue gatsby showed me in some video" then your agenda isnt in order. i dont want to make things more difficult for people who play the absolute crap out of ME2 like gatsby, i want those average 1 or 2 time rental players to apreciate the abilities given to us the same way gatsby does, but without the effort.

Read the difficulty descriptions. Normal difficulty is the baseline ME2 experience. Game is balanced around that difficulty so obviously Insanity requires specific power usage in order to be most effective. Some people may not like that - which is why there are 4 (or is it 5?) more difficulty settings.

The Spamming Troll wrote...
no, i dont think a soldeir is the most powerfull class. it can be, just like a vangaurd or infiltrator can be. i really have no problem with the signature moves, i just dont see the point in only making a few abilities that serve a purpose and exclude them to 6 different classes. wahts the point of classes anyways? its not replayability becasue id replay 100% more often if i could pair my own powers together however i choose.

Sentinel, Adept or Engineer can be just as powerful.

your right, you lasted two minutes of balls out sentinel action. congrats, but how many tries did it take for you to film a segment of you playing like that?

sure, normal is the baseline difficulty setting. good job. if the game was balanced around normal difficulty, then why do some classes play very differently on certain difficulty levels? normal difficulty doesnt mean every new player plays on normal difficulty tho. 

again, way to point out the obviouse. each class can be powerfull.

[Kronner]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

your right, you lasted two minutes of balls out sentinel action. congrats, but how many tries did it take for you to film a segment of you playing like that?

A whole year.
Why would it take more than one try? I think most players die very rarely - once you get to know the class well, you will not die at all.

The Spamming Troll wrote...
sure, normal is the baseline difficulty setting. good job. if the game was balanced around normal difficulty, then why do some classes play very differently on certain difficulty levels? normal difficulty doesnt mean every new player plays on normal difficulty tho. 

Because, believe it or not SOME people enjoy that. What a surprise..wow.
OTHER people might hate it. Which is why there are so many difficulty settings. No one tells you - play on Insanity motherfooker! If it is not fun for you, why bother with it? Why should Insanity play like Normal?

Modifié par Kronner, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:02 .