202 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

@JaegerBane

1. The quote has nothing to do with my own sensibilities and everything to do with common sense. You quoted me specifically talking about how ammo powers are plenty effective, then framed your reply as if I had said they weren't. How is pointing out the stupidity of doing that anything new on a forum? If you're going to quote someone in you reply, then your reply you should probably have something to do with what was quoted.

2. They need to be made up for because they aren't active powers, which is the case I've been making all along. You are the one who has dismissed them not being active powers being an issue and as result read a lot of things into my posts I never said.The devs have pigeonholed the player into spamming one ability (have their cake and eat it too, they make it so the soldier doesn't get the perks of the caster classes while still giving him something to cast on a regular basis), I would hope it'd be good enough to make up for the fact that every other class has many to choose from.

3. There is no confusion about CD, it's a fact. AR is not affected by any kind of CD reduction. This was a conscious decision as, for the third time now, it's the ONLY power in the game balanced for the PC for which this is the case. This was done for a reason, balancing perhaps?

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 septembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

@JaegerBane

 

As I said sino, since we've gotten to the stage where you're effectively trying to gloss over your contradictions despite your own arguments depending on them, I'm not really sure what there is left to discuss. My interest in this debate pretty much depended on it staying in the realms of common sense, so the point where I've apparently 'framed your responses' because I took your posts at face value and the point where your original argument contradicts your latest argument leaves it being something I'm not really willing to expend any more time over, as it's clear your reason for continuing isn't really to do with a balance discussion.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 06 septembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...
Heh. Heh heh heh. I like

I wonder if it's to do with piercing defences. I can't think of anything else that will help everyone but biased towards the Adept. That, or ME1's Adrenaline Rush has returned...

Maybe a new biotic power?
In the trailer, you can see a new biotic power (seems to be coming from nowhere though) in action. (at about 53-54 second mark)

[sinosleep]

@JaegerBane

There is no contradiction, all along you've been the one to dismiss the very simple reason I've had for ammo powers needing to be made up for. And that very simple reason could very easily be seen when taking my posts at face value.

One again, if you lack the reading comprehension to properly understand what I type that's your issue.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 septembre 2010 - 07:06 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

@JaegerBane

There is no contradiction,

Ah,
I suppose the whole issue about AR 'being a buff, not a direct damage
ability' in one hand and 'AR needing to be boosted as it's the only
power they have, excluding ammo powers (i.e., buffs)' was an attempt at
irony, in that case?

Or how about the part where you claimed that attempting casting in cooldown affected the soldier, as 'you can't cast anything on the cooldown either', despite mentioning earlier on that 'soldiers have nothing else to cast (and hence AR needs to be 'more')'?

Or the part where you claimed that ammo powers were 'nothing' in once post but were 'powerful' in the next?

Or my favourite one, where you started banging on about Drone after claiming that buffs and direct abilities shouldn't be compared?

I don't really know whether you've been so desperate to refute the arguments put to you that you haven't thought through what you're saying, or even if you've just forgotten what you've originally said, but as I say Sino, your argument has become so incoherent that I don't really see any point in continuing it. It's just going to deterioate into a slagging match from here on out.

One again, if you lack the reading comprehension to properly understand what I type that's your issue.

Oh trust me sino, trying to decipher what on earth you're banging on about half the time is enough reading comprehension for anyone

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Maybe a new biotic power?
In the trailer, you can see a new biotic power (seems to be coming from nowhere though) in action. (at about 53-54 second mark)

What.... is that?

Looks like a blue version of Harby's ball o' doom, but faster. I'll have to re-watch the trailer.

EDIT: Yeah. Biotic Wtfpwning. Interesting

That said, why would a biotic power benefit the Adept more than anyone else? I wonder if it's like a mix of Throw and Pull that throws opponents back but also makes them warp-explosive.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 06 septembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[sinosleep]

test

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

test

t-e-s-t. Test. There. I read that.

[mosor]

JaegerBane wrote...

That said, why would a biotic power benefit the Adept more than anyone else? I wonder if it's like a mix of Throw and Pull that throws opponents back but also makes them warp-explosive.

Not sure if it's going to be a mix of throw and pull, considering pull is already a mix of throw and lift from the first game. I'm assuming it's a loyalty power and available to all classes, so if it does envolope enemies in biotic energy, it may be an option for a sentinel to do their own explosions.

[JaegerBane]

mosor wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

That said, why would a biotic power benefit the Adept more than anyone else? I wonder if it's like a mix of Throw and Pull that throws opponents back but also makes them warp-explosive.

Not sure if it's going to be a mix of throw and pull, considering pull is already a mix of throw and lift from the first game. I'm assuming it's a loyalty power and available to all classes, so if it does envolope enemies in biotic energy, it may be an option for a sentinel to do their own explosions.

I'm not sure I'd agree Pull had much to do with Throw from the first game... if anything, Shockwave seemed to be ME1's Throw

While it would be interesting if it did make enemies explodable, there is the issue that Christina mentions whatever the bonus if going to be, while it'll affect all classes, it will bias the Adept. Giving sents the chance to do the kaboom doesn't really fit that criteria.

I am wondering whether it will be an anti-shield version of Warp?

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

...
there is the issue that Christina mentions whatever the bonus if going to be, while it'll affect all classes, it will bias the Adept. Giving sents the chance to do the kaboom doesn't really fit that criteria.

I am wondering whether it will be an anti-shield version of Warp?

Yeah, that's right. Maybe it will have a special (lower) cooldown for an Adept? Damn, I can't wait to play that DLC.
I think biotics working through the defenses is major change that would be advertised beforehand, I bet it will be something else.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 septembre 2010 - 07:56 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
Yeah, that's right. Maybe it will have a special (lower) cooldown for an Adept? Damn, I can't wait to play that DLC.
I think biotics working through the defenses is major change that would be advertised beforehand, I bet it will be something else.

Same here. The only spanner in the works is that I'd been playing with the idea of doing a modded Vanguard playthrough and had literally just decided to do so instead of an Adept.... and then I was told about this.

Meh. I guess we'll all find out tomorrow.

[sinosleep]

1. ar being a buff was in reply to it being equally effective against defenses. lack of context and imaged implications.

1.2 ammo powers not being active powers is all i was getting at. more imaginary inplications on your part.



2. learn to read. quote me and see if that's what is typed

3. no active powers

4. quote me. .context helps. i said that with regards to how they are affected by Defenses . doesn't mean they can't be compared at all. so once again your lack of reading comprehension and inability to notice context aren't my problem . excuse any grammar issues posting on my phone

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

 

Yeah, yeah, 'l2read', 'context', 'i'm right and you're wrong', random words...  this is all old news, sino. NO U at least has comedy value

Modifié par JaegerBane, 06 septembre 2010 - 08:18 .

[TheBestClass]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
Heh. Heh heh heh. I like

I wonder if it's to do with piercing defences. I can't think of anything else that will help everyone but biased towards the Adept. That, or ME1's Adrenaline Rush has returned...

Maybe a new biotic power?
In the trailer, you can see a new biotic power (seems to be coming from nowhere though) in action. (at about 53-54 second mark)

That looks a little like the energy balls the colossus fires at you on Haestrom.

[Kronner]

TheBestclass wrote...

That looks a little like the energy balls the colossus fires at you on Haestrom.

No, if you watch the trailer, you will see it is something different (or maybe it is just enhanced version of it..).

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

TheBestclass wrote...

That looks a little like the energy balls the colossus fires at you on Haestrom.

No, if you watch the trailer, you will see it is something different (or maybe it is just enhanced version of it..).

Yah, it travels *significantly* faster - faster than any none-hitscan biotic we've seen so far (at a guess it seemed to travel at the same speed as Charge). Shep only avoided it because he was moving out of the way before it impacted...

[fegede]

I just watched the trailer for lotsb and what looked more like a new biotic power to me was the biotic bubble made by the asari (liara?). That could be an awesome bonus skill (liara's loyalty?) for an adept imho

@Sinosleep and JaegerBane
I understand sinosleep's point just fine. Ammo powers are a buff like AR, but they aren't active powers, so the soldier as only AR to cast as an active power. The game is built about casting active powers on the fly during a fight (all classes are clearly made to do so). AR was fine tuned to be just the right power and the right cooldown so that soldiers would spam it without being overpowered and without wanting to spam a bonus active power instead (like reave or flashbang grenade ie, making them less combat oriented than an active buff power). AR is unique, it is very good, but it does not set the soldier on a separate difficulty level.

It started about the soldier being overpowered, but now it looks more like a catfight to me

JaegerBane wrote...
What I meant to say was that the overall class balance is non-existant. The general level of power between an Adept and a soldier is severly skewed in the direction of the Soldier... but not because of a different playstyle, it's because of specific powers. That's really the long and short of my issue - your class choice shouldn't really be a difficulty level pseudo-choice.

As far a difficulty go, I am far from seeing the soldier as the ultimate overpowered class. Vanguard and sentinel would win it as overpowered go imho, and I'm sure someone else could put his money on infiltrator or another class. And I would be just fine with that, as I am with the fact that you think soldier is godly even if I don't. This is just another ''my class is better then yours'' gone wrong. 

[sinosleep]

Well that speaks for itself. It seems no one else has had any problems understanding what I've typed. Not in this thread or any other. In fact, I don't think I've posted in a thread that's devolved this far in my history posting on this site. Which is saying something considering I've posted in  LOT of threads here.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:32 .

[JaegerBane]

fegede wrote...
@Sinosleep and JaegerBane
I understand sinosleep's point just fine. Ammo powers are a buff like AR, but they aren't active powers, so the soldier as only AR to cast as an active power. The game is built about casting active powers on the fly during a fight (all classes are clearly made to do so). AR was fine tuned to be just the right power and the right cooldown so that soldiers would spam it without being overpowered and without wanting to spam a bonus active power instead (like reave or flashbang grenade ie, making them less combat oriented than an active buff power). AR is unique, it is very good, but it does not set the soldier on a separate difficulty level.

That part of sinosleep's argument I could understand, although it remains to be seen what weight this idea of having the privelige of being able to cast something actually means in terms of gameplay. Where sinosleep started to lose me was his talk of 'ammo powers lack player engagement' (well, one of may bizarre points, but nevertheless the case in point) which, once stripped of all the cattiness and ego, didn't appear to amount to much more than the simple fact that Sino expected to be able to cast something even though he was playing a class that is realistically going to be the weakest in that regard and seemed to think the soldier is due compensation for this lack of engagement.

While I feel for sino's terrible loss of casting and all that, ultimately it meant dick with regards to balance (I mean, one could just as easily say that the colours of the powers on the class or the name of the class 'engage' the player moreso than another class - it has as much relevance to the question of balance as the desire to press the hotkey, it's purely a matter of player expectations and preferences). If the idea that the soldier was due a boosted class power due to 'lack of engagement' than things like the Engy and the Adept were due an upgrade in weapons load for the same reason - ultimately, the 'compensation' idea is a matter of your perception of the gameplay system, not a balance issue. The soldier is not a casting class and this is reflected in the fact that they have far more guns than anyone, so the idea they've been 'shortchanged' requires a willfull ignorance of the soldier's payload.

I remember a similar  (and equally nonsensical) argument in favour of the 'Scattershot' power in Dragon Age, where people defended the idea that archers could fire an auto-hitting auto-stunning AoE arrow because... mages got spells. Nevermind the fact that it was a daft ability that made no sense and didn't really fit with the rogue's methods, those pesky mages got their magic and hence we want something too.

As far a difficulty go, I am far from seeing the soldier as the ultimate overpowered class. Vanguard and sentinel would win it as overpowered go imho, and I'm sure someone else could put his money on infiltrator or another class. And I would be just fine with that, as I am with the fact that you think soldier is godly even if I don't. This is just another ''my class is better then yours'' gone wrong. 

All I can say is, there was a very good reason why I tried to keep opinion out of the debate, fegede. Ultimately saying 'I don't see this' or 'I don't agree' is all very well and good but is meaningless in terms of objectivity.

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

Well that speaks for itself. It seems no one else has had any problems understanding what I've typed. Not in this thread or any other. In fact, I don't think I've posted in a thread that's devolved this far in my history posting on this site. Which is saying something considering I've posted in  LOT of threads here.

No-one else? I guess you forgot the part people disagreed with you too, eh? Those pesky unbelievers

This is fun an all sinosleep, but styling yourself as some sort of posting god speaks volumes about your ego, not your point(s).

That said, 'devolved' is precisely the word that came to mind when I was trying to figure out how on earth all your different points matched up

Here, read this. Interesting, don't you think?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[fegede]

JaegerBane wrote...
That part of sinosleep's argument I could understand, although it remains to be seen what weight this idea of having the privelige of being able to cast something actually means in terms of gameplay.

What is casting worth ?? Without including the fun factor because you are strictly talking about fighting power I believe, you surely have seen how much ass kicking can be done with reave ? with flashbang grenade ? with energy drain ? warp explosions ? With every caster class, the class power allows you to cast these while your own class power is active.  They also have cooldown reduction on their passive.

JaegerBane wrote...
Where sinosleep started to lose me was his talk of 'ammo powers lack player engagement' (well, one of may bizarre points, but nevertheless the case in point) which, once stripped of all the cattiness and ego, didn't appear to amount to much more than the simple fact that Sino expected to be able to cast something even though he was playing a class that is realistically going to be the weakest in that regard and seemed to think the soldier is due compensation for this lack of engagement. While I feel for sino's terrible loss of casting and all that,
ultimately it meant dick with regards to balance (I mean, one could just
as easily say that the colours of the powers on the class or the name
of the class 'engage' the player moreso than another class - it has as
much relevance to the question of balance as the desire to press the
hotkey, it's purely a matter of player expectations and preferences)

Mockery aside, as I tried to sum it up, engagement as I understood it means casting in the middle of a firefight to turn the tide. It is not a compensation for weakness or anything to do with color preferences of whatever kind. It wasn't the clearest part, i'll give you that, but try to understand and you will be able I'm sure

All I can say is, there was a very good reason why I tried to keep opinion out of the debate, fegede. Ultimately saying 'I don't see this' or 'I don't agree' is all very well and good but is meaningless in terms of objectivity.

Objectivity...It is indeed hard to attain while talking about class strength in a single player game. I'll still try to go that way. I just love arguing. So, to quote you the soldier is above all because...

Ultimately the soldier is the only class in the game that manages to have both (1) a potent class power effective against every single enemy and situation in the game *and* (2) has a power to deal with every single defence in the game AND (3) arguably has the best passive skill in the game AND (4) has the greatest selection of weapons in the game.

1. You are right, AR works against everybody, just like the drone, singularity, tech armor, cloak and charge.
2. Unless you consider concussive shot your best option against barriers or include a bonus skill, soldier lack in that departement. Incinerate and warp are way better then concussive shot for the same purpose. With AR soldiers will only shoot. Is the DPS better then shooting and casting stuff at the same time ? Maybe, maybe not. Throwing people out of the level in a 3 sec cooldown is pretty good DPS to me.  Is the CC better ? No.
3.  Yeah, it is a good passive. Sentinel's 30% cooldown also is. infiltrators have time dilatation, weapon damage, power cooldown, power duration and health in their passive. Different passives for different needs, soldier's one is the best for shooting, none is ''overall'' best imho
4. It had to be, otherwise he would be underpowered. On the other hand, the GPS can be attained for casters and is, arguably, the best shotgun for them. Same with the mattock. SMG's are really really good and make an escellent second gun on most classes. Not saying they can shoot better, but they aren't wimpy casters with wands in their hands. The versatility they lose there, they gain it with cc and damage powers. My vanguard didn't feel like he was ''missing'' in the gun departement, same with a GPS equiped sentinel. Vanguard cleared rooms faster than soldier, sentinel had better survivability and didn't even need to bother about cover during a NG+

Unless you can prove me objectively that the soldier is clearly superior, I'll continue to think that class balance is pretty good in this game. Some classes might be ''faster'' or ''safer'', but I don't think of any of them as clearly overpowered in every situation. AR might be better than a single other skill like singularity on a one-sided view, but AR doesn't have any synergy with other skills. It just encourages you to not use them even if they are really good.

edited for quoting problem....

Modifié par fegede, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:25 .

[sinosleep]

There you go doing it again JaegerBane, instead of replying to what I actually type you just make up what ever suits your fancy and apply it to what you quote.

Where in that quote does it say that no one disagreed with me? I believe the answer is no where in that quote does it say that no one disagreed with me. What it says is, and I quote

It seems no one else has had any problems understanding what I've typed.

Does understanding what I type automatically imply agreement? No, and yet that's what you argue. A point I didn't make, like you've been doing for the entirety of this thread. I didn't declare myself some kind of forum lord, I made a statement of fact. In all my time posting here I've never had a thread devolve like this on me. Where on poster repeatedly misunderstands what I type and then puts words in my mouth to boot.

Then, for fourth or fifth time in this thread you bring up ego. Can you quote what I've said that's been so egotistical?

Go through the vanguard sticky, go through any of my video posts, hell go back to the thread I linked to where I managed (with help) to convince AverageGatsby to change his mind and you'll see my raging ego at work. Like how I often say my vids aren't anything anyone else couldn't do, how I encouraged others to make more videos (which would have been taking the spotlight off of my gigantic ego) and all manner of other things. It must have been my egregeious assertion that you have to be playing like an idiot in order to manage to make casting tech armor or cloak in and of itself a fatal mistake. Man, the ego it must take to state the obvious.

But at the end of the day that doesn't matter does it? Cause you aren't going to bother are you? You'll continue to just make **** up as you go along.You'll continue to not quote me when I ask you to. Hell, you STILL haven't responded to the fact that devs made it so that AR is the only ability in the game balanced for the PC that isn't affected by any kind of CD reduction. I've repeated this several times and yet the only thing you've said about it is

Given that so far you've brought everything into this debate from confusion over cooldown effects

And for the second time now I ask, what is the confusion? I stated a fact, that AR isn't affected by any kind of CD reduction and that it is unique in this, and that the only powers that are in any way similar are Fortification (not the same as it's not affected by CD in order balance Grunt not the PC) and Charge (not the same because while it's not affected by research it IS affected by vanguard passive). Where is the confusion there? That's a legitimate point. The skill was classed in such a way as to not allow for CD reduction. How can that be interpreted as anything other than a balancing technique?

Modifié par sinosleep, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[mcsupersport]

????



How did this thread go from a discussion of Sentinel and Warp exploding Dominated enemies to a good evil discussion on Soldier and Adept???



This needs to end, and both go back to your corners for a time out.

[sinosleep]

I tried to make contributions that were on topic, both in post and video form. I think all hope is lost of getting this train back on the track though.