177 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

the reason that Hawke can only be human is because the story is built for a human character. Most humans in Thedas are not going to elevate an elf or likely a dwarf to a position of power over them. Awakening was an extraordinary case only made possible by being a Grey Warden, which seems to trump anything else about your character. It also allows them to keep Hawkes family involved as part of the story for the duratiion. Personally, I don't think voice acting comes into it

[Faz432]

biomag wrote...

Faz432 wrote...

@ AntiChri5 & Upsettingshorts

I am not 'up in arms' 'attacking' 'slating' or anything else against Bioware, I enjoyed their games and am looking forward to DA2. I am merely asking the question in order to understand the reason behind their decision not to give you and I the choice, when in my mind at least it's not that difficult to do.

If like DaerogTheDhampir is suggesting that is might be imperative to the lore and continuation of the DA story then that's fair enough, but in the DA world is it really?

Its actually of no importance at all if it is "that difficult" in your mind or not. Fact is that Bioware is trying to make the best game possible and they know what their fans want. The writters and devs spoken quite openly about reason why they did things or not, its just you not listening. They said - not that it is that hard to understand ecconomic reasoning being pretty logical and easy to grasp - that it has a very high trade off for bringing in elf and dwarfen origin and at the same time it would add just very little to the game. It doesn't pay off.


Just because some fan thinks its easy and worth it because he spent, what? An hour thinking about it? It doesn't mean that Bioware hasn't done the same just with more heads involved and for a longer time and with better intel. They have the numbers. They have the story. You do have neither. I guess that makes it pretty obvious who can make the better call if implementing something into DA 2 is easy or not.


That's why I make fun of it. People here assume they care more about DA 2 than those people whose incomme is based on its success. Especially as those fans also base their assumptions on half known "facts" and unreal expectations. I would at least understand all these questionings if neither writter nor other developer would speak about the decision and reasonings they made, but that's not the case.


Now, I ain't saying that the product will be good in the end. You and I will have to wait to see how it turns out. Maybe we both won't buy it or drop it after the first hour of play as it simply fails to entertain. That is a completely different matter. But questioning the development of a project without even understanding its basics is simply just flawed.

I don't think this is true at all, I think Bioware's writers, devs, directors etc welcome ideas from the community otherwise what is the point of this forum?

Lord Aesir wrote...

the reason that Hawke can only be
human is because the story is built for a human character. Most humans
in Thedas are not going to elevate an elf or likely a dwarf to a
position of power over them. Awakening was an extraordinary case only
made possible by being a Grey Warden, which seems to trump anything else
about your character. It also allows them to keep Hawkes family
involved as part of the story for the duratiion. Personally, I don't
think voice acting comes into it

This is likely the reason but why not have the lowley down trodden Elf or Dwarf that we learnt about in DA:O make it to become the CoK, wouldn't it give the story a different angle and therefore make it a more complete experience?

Modifié par Faz432, 02 septembre 2010 - 11:09 .

[biomag]

Well I guess you are right... I am sure those who made Origins never thought about adding elves and dwarfs to DA 2...

[Faz432]

biomag wrote...

Well I guess you are right... I am sure those who made Origins never thought about adding elves and dwarfs to DA 2...

They might of we don't know, but in the end they haven't, why not?

That's the point.

[Heimdall]

Faz432 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

the reason that Hawke can only be
human is because the story is built for a human character. Most humans
in Thedas are not going to elevate an elf or likely a dwarf to a
position of power over them. Awakening was an extraordinary case only
made possible by being a Grey Warden, which seems to trump anything else
about your character. It also allows them to keep Hawkes family
involved as part of the story for the duratiion. Personally, I don't
think voice acting comes into it

This is likely the reason but why not have the lowley down trodden Elf or Dwarf that we learnt about in DO:A make it to become the CoK, wouldn't it give the story a different angle and therefore make it a more complete experience?

It would be a nice differant angle but I feel like they'd have to change something drastic to make it achievable for non humans.  The focus on a single storyline, in theory, makes that storyline that much deeper.  I'm not saying this is better than having that differant angle but I surmise that's the thinking behind it.

[biomag]

Faz432 wrote...

biomag wrote...

Well I guess you are right... I am sure those who made Origins never thought about adding elves and dwarfs to DA 2...

They might of we don't know, but in the end they haven't, why not?

That's the point.

My whole last post was about "why not"...

[DrIggy]

All of you who think it's difficult to implement might want to read what I said here:
http://social.biowar...2334/26#3311125
and here (for the "Non-humans can't rise to power in Thedas unless they're Grey Wardens" argument):
http://social.biowar...2334/26#4628528

Modifié par DrIggy, 02 septembre 2010 - 11:29 .

[upsettingshorts]

DrIggy wrote...

All of you who think it's difficult to implement might want to read what I said here:
http://social.biowar...2334/26#3311125
and here (for the "Non-humans can't rise to power in Thedas unless they're Grey Wardens" argument):
http://social.biowar...2334/26#4628528

Even if we accept both of your arguments - and I don't but I'll roll with them - then you have to have reached one of the following conclusions.  Please pick one:

1) Bioware is incompetent.  They do not know that VAs can be managed to accomodate custom races.
2) Bioware is lazy.  They do know, but they simply do not have the will to do it.
3) Bioware is maliciously witholding them.  They do not want you to be able to have a custom race because they don't like you.
4) Bioware is greedy.  They either do not want to pay any additional costs associated with them or are saving it for DLC.

Which is it?  

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I think the most obvious reason is that they are writing a distinctly human story and that the kind of variety we had in Origins may still be possible, but not when it comes to what race your character is.  There are other choices to be made, and there are other bonuses to narrowing the focus of a narrative. 

Personally, I think the answer is

5) Bioware made a choice.  They have determined their priorities for DA2's story in good faith.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 septembre 2010 - 11:44 .

[Heimdall]

DrIggy wrote...

All of you who think it's difficult to implement might want to read what I said here:
http://social.biowar...2334/26#3311125
and here (for the "Non-humans can't rise to power in Thedas unless they're Grey Wardens" argument):
http://social.biowar...2334/26#4628528

Saying Kirkwall might be differant for elves and dwarves than Fereldan isn't really that effective an argument as it seems to me that as a former part of the Tervinter Imperum, elves at least wouldn't be all that popular.  Not to mention I at leaste have been under the impression that the lot of elves is universally bad in Thedas.

Sure the people wouldn't just tell their savior to F*** off bucause they're not human.  They'd give them some money and send them off, not elevate them to a position of power

[DrIggy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Even if we accept both of your arguments - and I don't but I'll roll with them

I can understand for you not to accept my second argument, but the truth is most of what we know about how non-humans are treated by humans is related to the country of Ferelden. As for my first argument, related to the accents, all you have to do is replay the game and you'll see that it's a valid argument.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

- then you have to have reached one of the following conclusions.  Please pick one:

1) Bioware is incompetent.  They do not know that VAs can be managed to accomodate custom races.
2) Bioware is lazy.  They do know, but they simply do not have the will to do it.
3) Bioware is maliciously witholding them.  They do not want you to be able to have a custom race because they don't like you.
4) Bioware is greedy.  They either do not want to pay any additional costs associated with them or are saving it for DLC.

Which is it?

I don't think it's either of the four options you presented.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I think the most obvious reason is that they are writing a distinctly human story and that the kind of variety we had in Origins may still be possible, but not when it comes to what race your character is.  There are other choices to be made, and there are other bonuses to narrowing the focus of a narrative. 

Personally, I think the answer is

5) Bioware made a choice.  They have determined their priorities for DA2's story in good faith.  

I don't doubt the writing team has prepared a good story, but the decisions on what to focus during development are made by the project lead/lead designer and in the end it's his say which parts of the story will be included and which won't, along with which races are going to be playable, what's the combat going to be like, etc.

These decisions are mostly based on how to meet the deadline, rather than on what the fans want in the game. I can tell you, from a programmer's point of view the most important thing is that the program works as intended - in the case of RPG video games it means that the movement/combat works properly, the leveling mechanic works properly, the dialogues work properly, the quest completion conditions work properly. Notice that I put the quests (story) last, because they involve choices - most quests can be finished in at least two ways and of all of those the ones related to the main story take first priority. When you finish making them work and allowing the player to finish the game, then you can focus on the optional ones that are more or less directly related to the main story, but still contribute to the overall experience.

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sure the people wouldn't just tell
their savior to F*** off bucause they're not human.  They'd give them
some money and send them off, not elevate them to a position of power

Giving them some money and sending them on their way might be realistic for smaller accomplishments, but not for saving a whole city. Consider the rewards in Origins - for bigger accomplishments you got yourself an army from each faction you helped - they didn't just give you money and send you on your way. Then again, like I said in the post I linked, perhaps we'll get the choice to take power by force in which case race won't matter anyway.

Modifié par DrIggy, 02 septembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

You forgot about the treaty that you hold. They could give you money, yes indeed, if you don't have that treaty.

Anyway I came into this thread thinking it would be a discussion on the difficulty level of DA2, not another thread about playing other races.<_<

Modifié par The Hardest Thing In The World, 02 septembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[Heimdall]

DrIggy wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sure the people wouldn't just tell
their savior to F*** off bucause they're not human.  They'd give them
some money and send them off, not elevate them to a position of power

Giving them some money and sending them on their way might be realistic for smaller accomplishments, but not for saving a whole city. Consider the rewards in Origins - for bigger accomplishments you got yourself an army from each faction you helped - they didn't just give you money and send you on your way. Then again, like I said in the post I linked, perhaps we'll get the choice to take power by force in which case race won't matter anyway.

You got armies because of the grey warden treaties, helping the factions only freed them up to uphold their part of the treaty.  Aside from the werewolves anyway but they aren't exactly beholden to the social norms of Thedas.  I personally don't think we'll be able to take power through force, underhandedly yes but not brute force.  They don't proclaim you champion of the city for violently taking it over.

[Kiely]

thatguy212 wrote...

... since elves are treated like second class citizens it would be unlikely that hawke would be able to get a position of power (champion of kirkwall)

I played an elf in DA and obtained a position of power. Just saying.

Obviously the devs want to tell their story and that requires limits on the depth of roleplaying. I understand that.

I'll probably play DA2, but I'm also looking forward to the new Neverwinter game more than I was a month or two ago.

[Wishpig]

Faz432 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

the reason that Hawke can only be
human is because the story is built for a human character. Most humans
in Thedas are not going to elevate an elf or likely a dwarf to a
position of power over them. Awakening was an extraordinary case only
made possible by being a Grey Warden, which seems to trump anything else
about your character. It also allows them to keep Hawkes family
involved as part of the story for the duratiion. Personally, I don't
think voice acting comes into it

This is likely the reason but why not have the lowley down trodden Elf or Dwarf that we learnt about in DA:O make it to become the CoK, wouldn't it give the story a different angle and therefore make it a more complete experience?

Seriously? Making a game is hard. HARD! HHAARRRDDD! Even what seems like a simple thing to implant or fix to your average gamer is far more often then not incredibly time consuming, tricky, and runs the risk of screwing up other even more complex factors.

This however, is not one of those "it should be simple" moments. If you think about it and add a dash of common sense, you'll realise it IS pretty damn difficult to add elves and dwarf characters. Or at least considerable more trouble then it's worth (and making a game is all about balancing limited time and money, so the constant question "is it worth it" is a major factor).

I mean, a dozen people over have laid down why it would be so tricky to add the other races, so I'll just agree with them quickly.
1. They have diffrent accents. Ya it can be easily overcome, but, really... it would take some stretching that could seem a little to obvious. Plus it would be tricky to find a voice that works for a dwarf AND elf character.  This is the easiest hurdle to overcome though. BUT it is a hurdle.
2. Story would need a major change-up. Being a surface dwarf, being an ELF, comes with major major baggage. There is no copy and pasting race. Hawke would have noticbly diffrent dialog depending on race... add the gender and class factors... and you have a ton of branching problems to deal with. (Keep in mind a common complaint reguarding DA:O was how being an elf or a mage didn't seem to effect the story nearly enough. A problem that would certainly be even worse with a voiced main character!)
3. Family. The devs have stated that family plays a major role in the story line. Obviously the family would need to change depending on race... a major major major hurdle.

Add 1, 2, and 3 together and you have a ton of trouble that will cost you major $$$ and time to adress.

I feel bad for the devs. So many people on these forums think they know what goes into making a game (I at least have some knowledge being I went to college for two years studying game design before saying f*** this s***!). All these people keep saying how easy it should be to do that or to do this, must get so freakin frustrating.

Sry for the poor grammer and spelling, normally I go over what I wrote and fix it up before posting, but I just ran outta time!

OH, a quick PS- I'm a huge dwarf fan. I get games soley because they let me play as a dwarf! But sometimes, as in the case of DA2 I just have to accept that whats important to me just isn't as important to everyone else and I do my best not to expect a game catored soley to me.

Modifié par Wishpig, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Kiely]

Wishpig wrote...

Faz432 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

the reason that Hawke can only be
human is because the story is built for a human character. Most humans
in Thedas are not going to elevate an elf or likely a dwarf to a
position of power over them. Awakening was an extraordinary case only
made possible by being a Grey Warden, which seems to trump anything else
about your character. It also allows them to keep Hawkes family
involved as part of the story for the duratiion. Personally, I don't
think voice acting comes into it

This is likely the reason but why not have the lowley down trodden Elf or Dwarf that we learnt about in DA:O make it to become the CoK, wouldn't it give the story a different angle and therefore make it a more complete experience?

Seriously? Making a game is hard. HARD! HHAARRRDDD! Even what seems like a simple thing to implant or fix to your average gamer is far more often then not incredibly time consuming, tricky, and runs the risk of screwing up other even more complex factors.

This however, is not one of those "it should be simple" moments. If you think about it and add a dash of common sense, you'll realise it IS pretty damn difficult to add elves and dwarf characters. Or at least considerable more trouble then it's worth (and making a game is all about balancing limited time and money, so the constant question "is it worth it" is a major factor).

I mean, a dozen people over have laid down why it would be so tricky to add the other races, so I'll just agree with them quickly.
1. They have diffrent accents. Ya it can be easily overcome, but, really... it would take some stretching that could seem a little to obvious. Plus it would be tricky to find a voice that works for a dwarf AND elf character.  This is the easiest hurdle to overcome though. BUT it is a hurdle.
2. Story would need a major change-up. Being a surface dwarf, being an ELF, comes with major major baggage. There is no copy and pasting race. Hawke would have noticbly diffrent dialog depending on race... add the gender and class factors... and you have a ton of branching problems to deal with. (Keep in mind a common complaint reguarding DA:O was how being an elf or a mage didn't seem to effect the story nearly enough. A problem that would certainly be even worse with a voiced main character!)
3. Family. The devs have stated that family plays a major role in the story line. Obviously the family would need to change depending on race... a major major major hurdle.

Add 1, 2, and 3 together and you have a ton of trouble that will cost you major $$$ and time to adress.

I feel bad for the devs. So many people on these forums think they know what goes into making a game (I at least have some knowledge being I went to college for two years studying game design before saying f*** this s***!). All these people keep saying how easy it should be to do that or to do this, must get so freakin frustrating.

Sry for the poor grammer and spelling, normally I go over what I wrote and fix it up before posting, but I just ran outta time!

OH, a quick PS- I'm a huge dwarf fan. I get games soley because they let me play as a dwarf! But sometimes, as in the case of DA2 I just have to accept that whats important to me just isn't as important to everyone else and I do my best not to expect a game catored soley to me.

Quite true Wishpig, it is something that has to be part of the story and game design from the very beginning. Obviously the devs have a story to tell this time around and feel the choice of races would not be conducive to the story. That is fine I can understand that, and I'm sure despite the criticism people will still play them game.

But I do see the point of some of the criticism. The game had these choices originally and they were well handled (e.g., the different origin stories). People don't like when a sequel has less choices than the original. I get that too. Some cynical people might even say these types of choices were made in order to reduce development costs and maximize profits and the "framed narrative" or whatever you want to call it is just an excuse.

[SteveGarbage]

In Origins, the difference between playing a Human, Elf or Dwarf didn't really affect the overall game very much at all. You played a different Origin and certain conversations were slightly different or had different dialogue options. A Human noble could become King or Queen through marriage. Other than that, the difference is mostly aesthetic -- you can look like a Dwarf or Elf instead of a human.



The story design apparently is set up for Hawke being human. That's apparently more important than the ability to be a different race. And I'll take story over bonus features any day.

[errant_knight]

It's all about having a voice actor for the PC. It's prohibitively expensive to record the same dialogue in numerous races and with both genders for each. This is what happens when you have a voiced character, the game is fairly short, and your choices are limited.

[Faz432]

@Wishpig obviously making a game from scratch is hard that's why we don't just do it ourselves but that has nothing to do with this subject as all the tools and resources needed to implement an Elf or Dwarf Hawke already exist it's just a case of going ahead with it or not.

If the head director said tommorow 'right I really want us to implement a Elf and Dwarf Hawke choices' the devs would tell them 'no it's too hard' ? please they'd have it sorted easily without any delay to the release date.

Also it's not because 'you wouldn't have an Elf or a Dwarf in a position of power' because as someone has just mentioned you can become King/Queen of Ferelden as an Elf or Dwarf.

Modifié par Faz432, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[Wishpig]

errant_knight wrote...

It's all about having a voice actor for the PC. It's prohibitively expensive to record the same dialogue in numerous races and with both genders for each. This is what happens when you have a voiced character, the game is fairly short, and your choices are limited.

Fairly short? Don't get me wrong... it certainly shortens the game time. You will almost never see a 80+ hour fully voiced RPG. Hell a 50+ hour game would be doubtfull.

But were looking at around 30 hours. Thats not a fairly short game by any standards. No DA:O length to be sure... but calling it short is unfair.

Perhaps I misunderstood you and you just mean in comperison to DA:O/other un-voiced RPGS, in which case, you would be right.

But in the big scheme of games, it doesn't mean doomed to be short.

[nhsk]

Very difficult.



Download any starter programming tool, try to program something and make it work as intended.



Then come back and ask the same question.

[Faz432]

nhsk wrote...

Very difficult.

Download any starter programming tool, try to program something and make it work as intended.

Then come back and ask the same question.

Yes because I've never done any game/app programming, I have however done a bit of web programming and although I'm not an expert, as I have done more and more I find it quite easy and If I need to change an aspect I can do with little trouble.

So I might be wrong but I would imagine that profesional game programmers that work for a company like Bioware find game programming quite matter of fact, bread and butter. So changes to points of reference like charater type, locations and dialogue would be quite easy for them.

Modifié par Faz432, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:04 .

[errant_knight]

Wishpig wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

It's all about having a voice actor for the PC. It's prohibitively expensive to record the same dialogue in numerous races and with both genders for each. This is what happens when you have a voiced character, the game is fairly short, and your choices are limited.

Fairly short? Don't get me wrong... it certainly shortens the game time. You will almost never see a 80+ hour fully voiced RPG. Hell a 50+ hour game would be doubtfull.

But were looking at around 30 hours. Thats not a fairly short game by any standards. No DA:O length to be sure... but calling it short is unfair.

Perhaps I misunderstood you and you just mean in comperison to DA:O/other un-voiced RPGS, in which case, you would be right.

But in the big scheme of games, it doesn't mean doomed to be short.

Yes, I meant compared to DA:O. To me that's a step in the wrong direction for an RPG, as are all the other changes. I feel that they're watering down the things that made DA:O so special. This is just one of them.

[AntiChri5]

Faz432 wrote...

@Wishpig obviously making a game from scratch is hard that's why we don't just do it ourselves but that has nothing to do with this subject as all the tools and resources needed to implement an Elf or Dwarf Hawke already exist it's just a case of going ahead with it or not.

If the head director said tommorow 'right I really want us to implement a Elf and Dwarf Hawke choices' the devs would tell them 'no it's too hard' ? please they'd have it sorted easily without any delay to the release date.

Also it's not because 'you wouldn't have an Elf or a Dwarf in a position of power' because as someone has just mentioned you can become King/Queen of Ferelden as an Elf or Dwarf.

No you can't.

Stop making crap up.

[SDNcN]

errant_knight wrote...

It's all about having a voice actor for the PC. It's prohibitively expensive to record the same dialogue in numerous races and with both genders for each.

I wouldn't say it is all about having a voice actor, considering Family will be a major theme in DA:2 and that the Hawkes will have an expanded role in comparison the family members in Origins.

[Heimdall]

Kiely wrote...



I played an elf in DA and obtained a position of power. Just saying.

Only Because being a grey warden overides racial prejudice in Thedas