177 réponses à ce sujet

[ErichHartmann]

I'm not worried at all about the lack of other Hawke races. Storytelling tends to be a lot more focused around a single character.

[Kiely]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Kiely wrote...



I played an elf in DA and obtained a position of power. Just saying.

Only Because being a grey warden overides racial prejudice in Thedas

Seems to. 

[Wishpig]

Faz432 wrote...

@Wishpig obviously making a game from
scratch is hard that's why we don't just do it ourselves but that has
nothing to do with this subject as all the tools and resources needed to
implement an Elf or Dwarf Hawke already exist it's just a case of going
ahead with it or not.

If the head director said tommorow 'right
I really want us to implement a Elf and Dwarf Hawke choices' the devs
would tell them 'no it's too hard' ? please they'd have it sorted easily
without any delay to the release date.

Also it's not because
'you wouldn't have an Elf or a Dwarf in a position of power' because as
someone has just mentioned you can become King/Queen of Ferelden as an
Elf or Dwarf.

Wow.... yes.... they would say 'no it's too hard' BECAUSE IT WOULD BE! If they had more time and money and planned from the very offset to include elf and dwarf races it would be possible but still suck up allot more time and $$$. But as of now, with the game fairly close to release date, it would be to hard/borderline impossible to implant them

You have very little idea of what goes into making a game inside and outside the programming if you think otherwise and should prob stop argueing.

Faz432 wrote...

nhsk wrote...

Very difficult.

Download any starter programming tool, try to program something and make it work as intended.

Then come back and ask the same question.

Yes because I've never done any game/app programming, I have however done a bit of web programming and although I'm not an expert, as I have done more and more I find it quite easy and If I need to change an aspect I can do with little trouble.

So I might be wrong but I would imagine that profesional game programmers that work for a company like Bioware find game programming quite matter of fact, bread and butter. So changes to points of reference like charater type, locations and dialogue would be quite easy for them.

Lol, bread and butter? Did you even play Dragon Age? It took them months to get daggers to work right... AFTER RELEASE. Comparing game design to "matter of fact, bread and butter" puts you high on my doesn't know what their talking about list. Did you play awakening? That game was bugged as freakin hell. If game design was that easy and so simple, why the hell would it be so broken. The answer is it's not easy, it is incredibly hard. Even for experts like the bioware team.

You are very very very wrong. I went into game programming thinking "hey I'm great at web design, how diffrent can game design be?"

The answer is very diffrent and much much more difficult, even with simple **** games. Thats why I quit! I sucked at it! And yet I aced all my web classes... hmmmmm

You should stop argueing at this point, because that post kinda shows how much you know on the development of games. Which is next to nothing.

Modifié par Wishpig, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:47 .

[ProudNegro]

No we hate dwarves Screw you guys anyways

[Faz432]

@Wishpig I'm not arguing, if you can't comprehend the difference between designing an expansion with new game mechanics as did Awakenings to DA:O and the simple matter of replacing one model for another then I have no doubt you failed your class.

If it was so difficult they wouldn't of done it for Origins...or any other game in which you can choose multiple races.

I might be wrong but basically you just have to replace the models, scripts and you may have to get your VAs to record any lines which refer to the PCs race.

You guys are looking at it as having to rewrite the whole game, but it's not its just instead of using the human resources (models, scripts, dialogue etc) we use the elf resources or the dwarf one depending on which you choose.

Modifié par Faz432, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

Faz432 wrote...

@Wishpig I'm not arguing, if you can't comprehend the difference between designing an expansion with new game mechanics as did Awakenings to DA:O and the simple matter of replacing one model for another then I have no doubt you failed your class.

You're delusional if you believe it takes just a model swap.

[sephiroth199127]

You would have to make new designs for family characters, the voices might need a bit tweeking. Apart form that i don't know.

[Russalka]

NPC eyeline should be changed.

[Dave of Canada]

sephiroth199127 wrote...

You would have to make new designs for family characters, the voices might need a bit tweeking. Apart form that i don't know.

New dialogue, the removal of the mage class as a dwarf, a revamp of Bethany's character if a dwarf and such.

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

sephiroth199127 wrote...

You would have to make new designs for family characters, the voices might need a bit tweeking. Apart form that i don't know.

New dialogue, the removal of the mage class as a dwarf, a revamp of Bethany's character if a dwarf and such.

Besides us not knowing exactly how important it is for Bethany (or Hawke) to be a mage, to be human, and to have lived in Lothering and escaped the Blight (considering the fact Flemeth was probably only able to come to them since they were so close).

[Heimdall]

Dave of Canada wrote...

sephiroth199127 wrote...

You would have to make new designs for family characters, the voices might need a bit tweeking. Apart form that i don't know.

New dialogue, the removal of the mage class as a dwarf, a revamp of Bethany's character if a dwarf and such.

As well a certain amount of rewrite for the story since you can't just use the fact that you're a grey warden to get everyone to treat you the same now

[AlanC9]

Faz432 wrote...
Yes because I've never done any game/app programming, I have however done a bit of web programming and although I'm not an expert, as I have done more and more I find it quite easy and If I need to change an aspect I can do with little trouble.

So I might be wrong but I would imagine that profesional game programmers that work for a company like Bioware find game programming quite matter of fact, bread and butter. So changes to points of reference like charater type, locations and dialogue would be quite easy for them.

I'm not quite sure what kind of programming work you've done, but you might not appreciate the kind of difficulty folks are talking about here. There are all sorts of path dependency issues in an RPG, both with dialogs and with the game state. Stuff can run just fine but play weirdly if a player doesn't do the right things or does the right things in the wrong order. 

This isn't easy for anyone, even Bioware. We know it's not easy for Bioware because Bio had all kinds of glitches in DAO. Still does even after patch 1.04. For instance, the infamous glitches about Alistair being king when he isn't.

Edit: of course, such issues only arise if Hawke's race and background are actually relevant in the game. Without having a copy of the game I can't say how much work would be needed.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:43 .

[Faz432]

AlanC9 wrote...

Faz432 wrote...
Yes because I've never done any game/app programming, I have however done a bit of web programming and although I'm not an expert, as I have done more and more I find it quite easy and If I need to change an aspect I can do with little trouble.

So I might be wrong but I would imagine that profesional game programmers that work for a company like Bioware find game programming quite matter of fact, bread and butter. So changes to points of reference like charater type, locations and dialogue would be quite easy for them.

I'm not quite sure what kind of programming work you've done, but you might not appreciate the kind of difficulty folks are talking about here. There are all sorts of path dependency issues in an RPG, both with dialogs and with the game state. Stuff can run just fine but play weirdly if a player doesn't do the right things or does the right things in the wrong order. 

This isn't easy for anyone, even Bioware. We know it's not easy for Bioware because Bio had all kinds of glitches in DAO. Still does even after patch 1.04. For instance, the infamous glitches about Alistair being king when he isn't.

I accept that I might not fully appreciate the ammount of work involved, which is why I've asked the question, as yet I haven't really had anyone tell me the ins n outs, just a lot of highly defensive people basically telling me to stop complaining and it's just too hard, when all I am doing is trying to find out something that I don't understand.

My point of view is this, in DO:A when you choose your origin whether it be male human noble, female dalish elf etc there must be a switch in the game that then points to a corresponding 'folder' of resources (scripts, dialogue) for that origin, so to implement the same thing in DA 2 surely it's a case of creating a similar 'folder' of resources as the one already created for the human Hawke but changing the references to that of a elf or dwarf.

[Maverick827]

The difficulty in adding more races has very little to do with programming. The Dragon Age engine clearly supports the capabilities already; BioWare simply could have used what they had already built.

So while it is not difficult for BioWare to include Elves and Dwarves, it is unfeasible. It would have to be three games in one to achieve the same level of depth that solely a human Hawke will bring. The sheer game size required to house all of the dialog and extra story content would be far above the "accepted industry standard." I can guarantee you that every review would negatively point out the large file size (good luck with TOR, by the way =P).

Modifié par Maverick827, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:52 .

[Maconbar]

If they had the option of elf or dwarf Hawke and the VA was noticeably the same, I would find that to be very distracting. I think that would ruin that illusion that I was playing a different character. Maybe BW could autotune the dialogue for the dwarf and elf iterations.



I would like humans, dwarfs, and elves to each have a distinct speech. Dwarfs don't all need to sound like Scotsmen but they should sound different in some way.

[Wishpig]

Faz432 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Faz432 wrote...
Yes because I've never done any game/app programming, I have however done a bit of web programming and although I'm not an expert, as I have done more and more I find it quite easy and If I need to change an aspect I can do with little trouble.

So I might be wrong but I would imagine that profesional game programmers that work for a company like Bioware find game programming quite matter of fact, bread and butter. So changes to points of reference like charater type, locations and dialogue would be quite easy for them.

I'm not quite sure what kind of programming work you've done, but you might not appreciate the kind of difficulty folks are talking about here. There are all sorts of path dependency issues in an RPG, both with dialogs and with the game state. Stuff can run just fine but play weirdly if a player doesn't do the right things or does the right things in the wrong order. 

This isn't easy for anyone, even Bioware. We know it's not easy for Bioware because Bio had all kinds of glitches in DAO. Still does even after patch 1.04. For instance, the infamous glitches about Alistair being king when he isn't.

I accept that I might not fully appreciate the ammount of work involved, which is why I've asked the question, as yet I haven't really had anyone tell me the ins n outs, just a lot of highly defensive people basically telling me to stop complaining and it's just too hard, when all I am doing is trying to find out something that I don't understand.

My point of view is this, in DO:A when you choose your origin whether it be male human noble, female dalish elf etc there must be a switch in the game that then points to a corresponding 'folder' of resources (scripts, dialogue) for that origin, so to implement the same thing in DA 2 surely it's a case of creating a similar 'folder' of resources as the one already created for the human Hawke but changing the references to that of a elf or dwarf.

You expect someone to explain the ins and outs to you? People go to freakin college for years to learn the ins and outs of game design.

The reason no one will explain the ins and outs to you is because adding in two playible races effects multiple parts of the game development process (from the voice acting team, to the animation team, to the graphics team, to the writing team, ect ect ect), which each have their own nigh-countless ins and outs. Each are also interconnected in a finely balanced web of programing that is made just a little more unstable and hard to keep in order by each addition.

Even with no one will lay out and explain in every little detail how f*in hard it is to implant new races (not impossible with enough time and money... but sense when do game devs have that?) People have given you a clear view it is not merely this copy and paste idea you seem to have jammed into your skull.

Listen I would love to play as a dwarf. I would cough down double the game price to play as a dwarf (if they were implanted into the game well). Yet here I am defending the difficulty of making them a playible race. And while I have many problems with the direction I think DA:2 is going... this is not one of them... or at least I can understand the reasoning behind this.

I fear Dave of Canada may be right....

[Dave of Canada]

Wishpig wrote...

I fear Dave of Canada may be right....

I don't know if this is a compliment or an insult.

[FlintlockJazz]

Wishpig wrote...

It took them months to get daggers to work right... AFTER RELEASE.

Not arguing with your main point, as it is correct, but while getting the daggers to work right did require a lot of work the reason why it took so long is because EA does not like allocating resources to patching or QA.  Prior Bioware releases, while not perfect, did seem to have undergone decent testing before release, yet both ME2 and DA:O suffered from bugs I would expect to see from typical EA releases and the patching too (hell for most of their games EA are more likely to release an expansion pack that introduces even more bugs than release a patch to fix the ones that are there). 

I personally feel that both DA:O and ME2 could have done with a few more months of bug testing before release, and I definitely feel that the projected release dates for DA2 and ME3 is far too early to include proper testing of the game.

[Mecha Tengu]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

I fear Dave of Canada may be right....

I don't know if this is a compliment or an insult.

its a complisult

[Wishpig]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

I fear Dave of Canada may be right....

I don't know if this is a compliment or an insult.

its a complisult

More of a compliment than an insult... although I don't think it's really either.

[Maverick827]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

It took them months to get daggers to work right... AFTER RELEASE.

Not arguing with your main point, as it is correct, but while getting the daggers to work right did require a lot of work

Wasn't the dagger bug just an incorrect formula?  One line of code?

You're right, though BioWare (or, if you must, the "evil" EA) have been terrible at patching Dragon Age.

[errant_knight]

SDNcN wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

It's all about having a voice actor for the PC. It's prohibitively expensive to record the same dialogue in numerous races and with both genders for each.

I wouldn't say it is all about having a voice actor, considering Family will be a major theme in DA:2 and that the Hawkes will have an expanded role in comparison the family members in Origins.

There's no reason for that to affect the length of the game.

[AlanC9]

Faz432 wrote...
My point of view is this, in DO:A when you choose your origin whether it be male human noble, female dalish elf etc there must be a switch in the game that then points to a corresponding 'folder' of resources (scripts, dialogue) for that origin, so to implement the same thing in DA 2 surely it's a case of creating a similar 'folder' of resources as the one already created for the human Hawke but changing the references to that of a elf or dwarf.

This is completely wrong. You're starting to sound like someone who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

There's only one version of everything -- when an individual line of dialog depends on the PC being an elf, or whatever, there's a check to see if that condition is true.

If you're on PC, look at the toolset for yourself.

[Faz432]

AlanC9 wrote...

Faz432 wrote...
My point of view is this, in DO:A when you choose your origin whether it be male human noble, female dalish elf etc there must be a switch in the game that then points to a corresponding 'folder' of resources (scripts, dialogue) for that origin, so to implement the same thing in DA 2 surely it's a case of creating a similar 'folder' of resources as the one already created for the human Hawke but changing the references to that of a elf or dwarf.

This is completely wrong. You're starting to sound like someone who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

There's only one version of everything -- when an individual line of dialog depends on the PC being an elf, or whatever, there's a check to see if that condition is true.

If you're on PC, look at the toolset for yourself.

I'm not being funny but it sounds as though we're discribing the same thing but in different ways.

If your condition comes back as 'true' what happens? it retrieves the information that's for the elf?

How is that different than my switch (true/false) retrieving the resources (information) for the elf?

------

I don't know why some people appear to be getting irate here, are we not allowed to discuss these things?

@Wishpig what you're failing to realise is that the processes that you're concerned about have already happend, almost everything needed to make it work already exists, it would just be a case of tweaking certain things to allow for it.

Modifié par Faz432, 02 septembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[SDNcN]

errant_knight wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

It's all about having a voice actor for the PC. It's prohibitively expensive to record the same dialogue in numerous races and with both genders for each.

I wouldn't say it is all about having a voice actor, considering Family will be a major theme in DA:2 and that the Hawkes will have an expanded role in comparison the family members in Origins.

There's no reason for that to affect the length of the game.

I was responding to the idea that a voice protagonist is the only reason Hawke can't be another race, which is  why i didn't include your second sentence. I didn't know you were just talking about game length.