177 réponses à ce sujet

[Pedro Costa]

Faz432 wrote...

To add the choice of having an Elf or Dwarf Hawke?

Is it not just changing the points of reference in the dialogue?

1. New models (hawke and all his family).
1.1. No bethany if Hawke is a dwarf, which means even more coding and tweaking and completely rewrite the story, if the "chantry in ruins" thing is to take as much importance as it seems.
1.2. New scenarios depending on place of origin, unless there were dwarves in Lothering (can't remember....)
1.2.1 If so, the reason why your character was sent to Kirkwall would have to be changed since he would no longer be a Lothering refugee.
1.2.2. Your character would still have to show up somewhere near Korkari Wilds since it's where Flemeth likes to hang around.
2. New voice actors. (each character counts as a new character, so, they'd have to pay EACH VO three times the money)
3. New classes, methods and properties. Trust me, toggles are headaches.
4. New dialogue/enitre new scenario wherever his race plays a role. (I can't see an elf being king of any human city, like Kirkwall, nor see a dwarf being taken seriously in the outside world politics due to the caste system)

...and the list goes on. It'd take so much time and effort coding it's not even funny. This isn't just add two or three lines of code and replace <name>. Programming is *never* that simple. And it's difficulty level is inversely proportional. The simpler something seems, the harder it is to implement. Especially if most of the code is already done. Not to mention, if they made hawke human, then it is because that particular race is essential to the story, or in other words, the story was made *for* a human character.

PS: after reading this topic, you know nothing about modeling nor programming and talk as if you do... sigh

[Wishpig]

Faz432 wrote...

It's almost as if you didn't even read what I wrote...

I'll pick you up on some points though then you can go back and re-read my post if you wish.

* Programming - I'm not asking for a tutorial in game programming here but when people incorrectly say it's too much programming work to be done, it's reasonable for my to ask why? if they don't have a proper answer because they don't know themselves then they're just guessing aren't they? they have no idea how much or little programming actually has to be done. As most of the things you would associate with programming already exist I say it wouldn't be much.

* Voice acting - Again you're assuming it's too hard based on nothing apart from that you don't know how to do it. To a professional it wouldn't be. Also 'Dwarfs and Elves have American accents and Humans have British'....what!? that's rubbish and nothing in DA states or supports that.

You can't just explain programming... it's not that simple. What don't you get? There are a ton of factors that even people with allot of game development experiance couldn't explain because only bioware programmers would know. Like how they changed the engine? Because it won't be toolset friendly, maybe somethings once easy to program have become much more complex as to increase detail.

Voice acting is not hard per-say. But it takes time, money, and allot of space, and balancing those three factors IS hard.

Bottom line here, is putting in the three races is not an impossible task within it's self, but it would take a great deal of time, in just even PLANNING and writing how to implant three races as their would be multiple branching paths and the difficulty of doing each race justice without Origins to really set the stage. Time is not free, time is not in abundance, and with their limited time, yes, it would be extremely difficult to impalnt two races.

You come on these forums, you ask a question, have no real knowledge in game design, nor any real knowledge of what goes into making a game... yet you seem to refuse to really listen to most answers to the point I'm starting to think your a troll.

DARKLORD'S ABOVE POST IS YET ANOTHER GREAT EXPLINATION I"M SURE YOU'LL JUST IGNORE

For someone so willing to admit you dont know squat about game design, you sure don't act like it!

Modifié par Wishpig, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:03 .

[Faz432]

Look I freely admit I know nothing about game programming but then I don't need to I'm not the one making the game, Bioware has professional game programmers who do that daily, who would be more than capable of doing it, if they chose to. Does that mean I can't think of a concept or put an idea forward?

Many of Darklord's points I put forward myself as things that would need to be done on the last page, and as Maverick827 highlighted it's more a case of logistics than anything else.

It's understandable to side with people's opinions that are similar to your own so when someone like Darklord says 'it's hard because of all the programming that needs to be done' then you're going to agree with that but when someone else like Maverick says 'It's not the programming it's the other stuff' then I'll agree with that.

I can't accept that the reason they aren't adding a Elf or Dwarf Hawke is because of the programming work that would have to be done because that's their job, that's what they do, they've done it before and they'll probably do it in the future.

Oh yeah and if you don't agree with someones opinion just call them a troll or whatever else, I've been looking at these forums for a while without really posting much because it seems that there are a certain group of people that react with the 'you ain't from round these parts boy' kinda attitude.

Modifié par Faz432, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[Saibh]

Faz432 wrote...
Oh yeah and if you don't agree with someones opinion just call them a troll or whatever else, I've been looking at these forums for a while without really posting much because it seems that there are a certain group of people that react with the 'you ain't from round these parts boy' kinda attitude.

We all jump in at one point, for the most part. I did, and I never received that sort of attitude, because I never started posting with stuff like "I know nothing about programming but I think they should do this and that and this and it's not that hard, which is backed up by my [sarcasm]absurd amount of knowledge on programming[/sarcasm]".

I honestly have no idea why "Maybe Hawke's race is important to the story" wasn't good enough for you to begin with.

Besides that, I note that last page you made a few comments about "why didn't anyone say that earlier" when they did. Repeatedly. And you won't listen. You kept expecting someone to detail to you. Maverick knows more about programming than I, so I defer to his judgment, but he didn't exactly explain anything to you--he just said "it's not programming, it's logistics", which isn't any more detailed then anything anyone else has said.

It's understandable to side with people's opinions that are similar to your own so when someone like Darklord says 'it's hard because of all the programming that needs to be done' then you're going to agree with that but when someone else like Maverick says 'It's not the programming it's the other stuff' then I'll agree with that.

Again, I believe him, but it seems like you agreed with him simply because he was saying what you wanted to hear, and that was it didn't have anything to do with programming.

I could have easily said:

"All of the code to support a multi-race protagonist (doesn't) exists; little much would have to be written if BioWare wanted to allow Elves and Dwarves to be playable.

It is not a programming issue, but instead not one of logistics. "

And, what, you'd believe me? You said you know nothing about game design, so my word is as good as his, and you have no knowledge to counter mine. Plenty of people have been giving you excellent reasons why they won't (or couldn't) do this, and it's like you won't listen to them, or flat ignore them.

You can't expect people to take you seriously when you refuse to listen to anyone's opinon but the one that agrees with you.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[Faz432]

I have accepted many of the reasons given by people that make sense to me here, it's just those few that keep bringing up the point of programming that I can't understand because it should be well within Bioware's capability seeing as they're the ones who make the game.

Modifié par Faz432, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[biomag]

edit: sorry, I take it back.

Modifié par biomag, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Maconbar]

Faz432 wrote...

Look I freely admit I know nothing about game programming but then I don't need to I'm not the one making the game, Bioware has professional game programmers who do that daily, who would be more than capable of doing it, if they chose to. Does that mean I can't think of a concept or put an idea forward?

Many of Darklord's points I put forward myself as things that would need to be done on the last page, and as Maverick827 highlighted it's more a case of logistics than anything else.

It's understandable to side with people's opinions that are similar to your own so when someone like Darklord says 'it's hard because of all the programming that needs to be done' then you're going to agree with that but when someone else like Maverick says 'It's not the programming it's the other stuff' then I'll agree with that.

I can't accept that the reason they aren't adding a Elf or Dwarf Hawke is because of the programming work that would have to be done because that's their job, that's what they do, they've done it before and they'll probably do it in the future.

Oh yeah and if you don't agree with someones opinion just call them a troll or whatever else, I've been looking at these forums for a while without really posting much because it seems that there are a certain group of people that react with the 'you ain't from round these parts boy' kinda attitude.

So please remind me what you would like to see.

Is it just changes to the models? Do you want changes to the script/story? Do you want new VO or VO-modified using something akin to AutoTune or is the same voice ok?

If for example BW went with your general idea but only changed models, I think that would appear to be ridiculous once I started a second run through.

If BW created distinct origins-style beginnings for each race than BW is putting a greater financial investment into the product. However, most video games are designed so that they can get an appropriate return while charging the customer generally in the $50-60 range. The buying public is generally price-sensitive above that range. So to proceed with expanded origins would force BW to allocate fewer resources to other parts of the DA:2 product.

Or it could be that the overall story that BW wants to convey in DA:2 only makes sense with a human protagonist.

[Maconbar]

Faz432 wrote...

I have accepted many of the reasons given by people that make sense to me here, it's just those few that keep bringing up the point of programming that I can't understand because it should be well within Bioware's capability seeing as they're the ones who make the game.

Clearly BW has the technical capability to do this.

They haven't either because it would cost more or not make sense within the context of the story that they want to tell. Or it could be that both reasons are relevant.

[DrIggy]

Saibh wrote...

No, this is Rubbish, and I am right.

Actually go play DAO, and then we'll talk. Seriously, maybe you just didn't notice, but Fereldans have British accents, and dwarves and elves have American/Canadian.

I really hoped people would actually play the game and check before posting stuff like this, but I guess I expected too much. Once more - accents in Dragon Age are not race-specific!! It's more accurate to say they are nation-specific, but even that isn't always the rule.

You know what, I'm actually going to list the characters by name:

Humans who speak with non-British accents: Wynne (American), Leliana (French), Master Ignacio (Spanish), Cesar (Spanish), Marjolaine (French)
Elves who speak with non-American accents: Zevran (Spanish), Nigella (British), Erlina (French), Sarel (British)
Dwarves who speak with non-American accents:  Bodahn Feddic (British), Sandal (British)

There might be others, but you'll have to check yourselves. Anyway, case in point - one voice actor per gender would be sufficient, there is no need to hire different voice actors for different races.

[Faz432]

@ Maconbar

Pretty much, just would like the option to choose to play as something other than a human, the story can stay the same.

I don't think they'd have to start differently because whichever you picked you could start in Lothering everyone from surrounding areas fled there during the blight, apparently there was a elf family (I can't remember them but someone said it earlier) and of course the Feddics so that's dwarfs covered too, so it's possible there were more.

I don't think that having the same voice for each would bother me but it might do for others so perhaps they could do something in a studio type software to alter the pitch and pace. Also changing certain dialogue so it become specific to elf or dwarf.

But I accept certain reasons why they might not do this, it's just certain points that are becoming a sticking point which I didn't intend..

@ DrIggy

Thank you

Modifié par Faz432, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Maconbar]

DrIggy wrote...

Saibh wrote...

No, this is Rubbish, and I am right.

Actually go play DAO, and then we'll talk. Seriously, maybe you just didn't notice, but Fereldans have British accents, and dwarves and elves have American/Canadian.

I really hoped people would actually play the game and check before posting stuff like this, but I guess I expected too much. Once more - accents in Dragon Age are not race-specific!! It's more accurate to say they are nation-specific, but even that isn't always the rule.

You know what, I'm actually going to list the characters by name:

Humans who speak with non-British accents: Wynne (American), Leliana (French), Master Ignacio (Spanish), Cesar (Spanish), Marjolaine (French)
Elves who speak with non-American accents: Zevran (Spanish), Nigella (British), Erlina (French), Sarel (British)
Dwarves who speak with non-American accents:  Bodahn Feddic (British), Sandal (British)

There might be others, but you'll have to check yourselves. Anyway, case in point - one voice actor per gender would be sufficient, there is no need to hire different voice actors for different races.

I didn't like that fact that accents in DA:O weren't race-specific. BW is improving things (from my viewpoint) by making the elves, dwarves, and humans appear different. I would like to see them expand that difference in voice. I don't mean that dwarves should all sound like Scotsmen but their voices should be different in some way. I thought that was a weakness in the game. But if my PC had the same voice as an elf, as a dwarf, and as a human, I think that would be terrible.

[AlanC9]

DrIggy wrote...

I really hoped people would actually play the game and check before posting stuff like this, but I guess I expected too much. Once more - accents in Dragon Age are not race-specific!! It's more accurate to say they are nation-specific, but even that isn't always the rule.

You know what, I'm actually going to list the characters by name:

Humans who speak with non-British accents: Wynne (American), Leliana (French), Master Ignacio (Spanish), Cesar (Spanish), Marjolaine (French)
Elves who speak with non-American accents: Zevran (Spanish), Nigella (British), Erlina (French), Sarel (British)
Dwarves who speak with non-American accents:  Bodahn Feddic (British), Sandal (British)

We don't really have to pay attention to the Orlesians, etc., because Hawke will come from Ferelden.

What does that make the organizing principle for Ferelden accents? Bodahn and Sandal have maybe been on the surface long enough to pick up the accent.   Nigella makes sense as an exception because she works with the upper class. Sarel just doesn't make any sense, though.

[AlanC9]

Faz432 wrote...

I have accepted many of the reasons given by people that make sense to me here, it's just those few that keep bringing up the point of programming that I can't understand because it should be well within Bioware's capability seeing as they're the ones who make the game.

I don't think anyone has said it was beyond Bioware's capability. The argument is that it's a large amount of work with not enough ROI to justify doing that work.

[Wishpig]

Faz432 wrote...

I have accepted many of the reasons given by people that make sense to me here, it's just those few that keep bringing up the point of programming that I can't understand because it should be well within Bioware's capability seeing as they're the ones who make the game.

You just DON'T listen (as many others have also pointed out to you. So maybe you should start). Or read rather. I'll do so agian. I don't think anyone is saying the programming itsself is strait out impossible. Thats not the problem.

It's not the programming thats impossible. They CAN do it. It's in THEIR power. But is is more programming and as Darklord pointed out not a small amount.

And you don't seem to get programming is complex. Take an experianced comic book artist for example. Just because their experianced, just because they can draw, doesn't mean they can draw an entire comic in one day. Infact they may take an even longer time then a less experianced artest because they want to do it to the best of their ability.

It's the fact they have a limited schedule, time, and money. They can technically do it I'm sure. They could do allot of things. But they can't do it all can they? They have to pick and choose what is important and what should be their priorities.

Faz432 wrote...
Oh yeah and if you don't agree with someones
opinion just call them a troll or whatever else, I've been looking at
these forums for a while without really posting much because it seems
that there are a certain group of people that react with the 'you ain't from round these parts boy' kinda attitude.

Lol, what? No my problem is you admit to knowing nothing in the topic, but still having this attitude that says you think you do. People answer you and you either seem to just ignore their good points or say "not good enough".

Agian, I'm obviously not alone in being frustrated by this...

Modifié par Wishpig, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[DrIggy]

AlanC9 wrote...

We don't really have to pay attention to the Orlesians, etc., because Hawke will come from Ferelden.

What does that make the organizing principle for Ferelden accents? Bodahn and Sandal have maybe been on the surface long enough to pick up the accent.   Nigella makes sense as an exception because she works with the upper class. Sarel just doesn't make any sense, though.

How about Wynne and her American accent? Or Flemeth and her American accent? (just remembered this one)

Faz432 wrote...

@ DrIggy

Thank you

No problem. Though I suspect it won't last long. After a few more posts someone is bound to repeat the "different race=different accent" false argument.

[AlanC9]

What does Wynne sound like, anyway? Not like any American I personally know.



Flemeth I give a pass because she's old enough that her accent wouldn't be related to anything current. Unless she picks up her accent from her current host, which opens up another can of worms. But then we have to ask why Morrigan has a different accent.

[Maverick827]

I'm sorry if I caused some confusion, but I guess I should define what programming "is" and what programming "is not" and  why everyone (but the OP, that is =P) is correct.

When a programmer uses the term "program," as in, "I still need to program that functionality," they really mean "code."  In fact, I really don't know anyone who says "program" anymore.  It's always just "code."  I will say, when speaking to a fellow student, "Yeah, I still need to code part B of the assignment."  Now, while I would be referring to something entirely different than video game engine programming, what we mean is very similar: I need to append new lines of code to the existing program.  I won't go into this much, but after time adding new code to a "stable" project becomes very tricky and should be done sparingly.  I'm sure somewhere at BioWare, when someone wants to implement a new ability effect, someone will say "are you sure you can't jury rig what you want somehow with the current engine?"

My games programming knowledge is limited, but from what I remember in class, back in the day of early gaming with, say 8-bit processors (think NES graphics), everything you saw on screen was written directly into the game's code.  To create "scenes" and "animation," the programmers would (using assembly...) light up various pixels with various colors directly.  It would be like putting a series of puzzles together, piece by piece, and then flipping through every puzzle like a flip book.  It was all very basic stuff and required knowledge of the programing language (again, assembly) to do so.

I'm not quite sure when, but rest assured that sometime since then the game development process has shifted.  Programmers actually now make software tools for non-programmers to use to build the game.  We typically refer to these as editors, and most BioWare games have come with a version for users to mess around with.  These are typically the exact same thing that is used to actually make the game, though I suppose the public version may often be missing a few abilities.

So when I say that there would be no programming to add an Elf or a Dwarf protagonist, I mean that there would require no code to be added to the engine, because as far as the engine is concerned, there is no such thing as "Dwarf" or "Human."  It doesn't care what Hawke looks like or what string of text any given character might have to use to refer to a different race, it just knows how to handle "a model" that has "animations" around its face, in this case to mimic speaking, and that "a string of text" which accompanies a "sound file" is somewhere in the mix.  It puts all of this together by itself.

But to create those "models" and "animations" and "strings of text" and "sound files," while not programming, are not unrelated.  They are part of the process now and are just as complicated if not more so than writing code.

[sreaction]

Faz432 wrote...

To add the choice of having an Elf or Dwarf Hawke?

Is it not just changing the points of reference in the dialogue?

I dont think it would be difficult at all. Slightly more work but really, I agree, how hard can it be?

I am not going to make excuses for the game designers like some. Isnt it about what the game players want, not what is easiest for the designers? I am looking for the best gaming exerience and that to me is a variety of options. CHOICE!!!

That being said, I wonder... considering the player must be human and must have a specific name perhaps it has more to do with having a congruous story line. For example, in DAO King Cailan cannot be an Elf or a Dwarf since that would not make sense ( I know you cannot personalize NPC's it just an example), So perhaps the main character in DA II must be human and have a set name in order for the story ot make sense.

If thats not the case then eff the decision to detract fromt the game.

[Kiely]

sreaction wrote...

Faz432 wrote...

To add the choice of having an Elf or Dwarf Hawke?

Is it not just changing the points of reference in the dialogue?

I dont think it would be difficult at all. Slightly more work but really, I agree, how hard can it be?

I am not going to make excuses for the game designers like some. Isnt it about what the game players want, not what is easiest for the designers? I am looking for the best gaming exerience and that to me is a variety of options. CHOICE!!!

I think this thread needs to make a distinction between hard and more time consuming and expensive. And sorry it is not about the game players want, although it would be nice if that was the case, it is about profit. Bioware is owned by EA... we're lucky DA2 isn't just DA with updated rosters.

[sreaction]

Doesn't profit have everything to do with making a product that gamers enjoy i.e. pleasing the customer base? Profit wise it is about pleasing the customer. Unless you think making radical and unpopular changes profitable.

True, a profitable franchise must be timely and economically sound . However you still MUST have an attractive and popular finished product in order to satify the bottom line...$$$

Modifié par sreaction, 03 septembre 2010 - 08:51 .

[Saibh]

DrIggy wrote...

How about Wynne and her American accent? Or Flemeth and her American accent? (just remembered this one)

I couldn't explain, and it doesn't sound like consistency. Maybe she was raised elsewhere, who knows. Flemeth is also very ancient.

Regardless, it seems pretty apparent to me that elves/dwarves have American accents, except when raised around humans for their entire lives (as opposed to Alienage-raised elves or Dalish). I would explain Bodahn's accent with him sharing the same voice and much of the same lines as the Fereldan barkeeps around. Makes as much sense as that undercover Jowan Chanter in Lothering.

All of the Dalish elves have American accents, all of the Orzammar dwarves have American accents. It is a generalization, but a valid one. I would be weirded out by them all sharing the same voice.

[Bryy_Miller]

Faz432 wrote...

Look I freely admit I know nothing about game programming but then I don't need to I'm not the one making the game, Bioware has professional game programmers who do that daily, who would be more than capable of doing it, if they chose to. Does that mean I can't think of a concept or put an idea forward?

You can do so as long as you don't act like you know what it requires.

[Kiely]

sreaction wrote...

Doesn't profit have everything to do with making a product that gamers enjoy i.e. pleasing the customer base? Profit wise it is about pleasing the customer. Unless you think making radical and unpopular changes profitable.

True, a profitable franchise must be timely and economically sound . However you still MUST have an attractive and popular finished product in order to satify the bottom line...$$$

Sure, but I guess they feel offering what they are (i.e., limited choice compared to DA) isn't going to hurt their bottom line much. I assume they feel the product will still be attractive and popular despite not being allowed to play as a dwarf or elf???

I think despite people's complaints and concerns most people who enjoyed DA will buy DA2.

[Bryy_Miller]

Kiely wrote...

I think despite people's complaints and concerns most people who enjoyed DA will buy DA2.

And people wonder why they have no money. They spend it all on things they say they'll hate.