198 réponses à ce sujet

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I think a templar would be dull because they don't have much to talk about. Alistair was an almost templar. and after a templar becomes a templar, they just sit around "guarding" mages. The most interesting parts of Alistair was his bastard status and the resulting childhood trauma, not the tale of scrubbing dishes in a Chantry.

Alistair was not a Templar. He trained as one. Difference. Templars don't just guard mages, they also hunt down apostates. This is based on the numerous item descriptions, Morrigan's stories, and codex page. I'd say that's pretty ineresting.Not to mention the whole moral conundrum you have with the circle tower.

There is fanfiction about Cullen who pretty much does nothing more in them then stand around and gaze longingly at the Mage with hearts in his eyes and it still makes for a good read.

Dear Maker no! Someone spending the whole time talking about how they
hunted down mages and how they had emotional problems as a novice in the
chantry and generic hobbies they picked up! That's even worse than
Velanna. ../../../../images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png

Why
not a city guard? They'd be much more interesting as they spend less
time in church's praying and get to meet all sorts of interesting types
in the streets of major cities. The only interesting templar would be a
Spectre style templar, which as far as we know, doesn't exist.

So, what you are trying to say is that you would prefer somebody with a more adventerous life style as a companion?
Okay, that is certainly a good argument, if you aren't very interested in the emotional side of a person, thanks for sharing your thoughts

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

There is fanfiction about Cullen who pretty much does nothing more in them then stand around and gaze longingly at the Mage with hearts in his eyes and it still makes for a good read.

Don't get me started on fanfiction

Dear Maker no! Someone spending the whole time talking about how they
hunted down mages and how they had emotional problems as a novice in the
chantry and generic hobbies they picked up! That's even worse than
Velanna. ../../../../images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png

Why
not a city guard? They'd be much more interesting as they spend less
time in church's praying and get to meet all sorts of interesting types
in the streets of major cities. The only interesting templar would be a
Spectre style templar, which as far as we know, doesn't exist.

Well there does seem to be a spectre style element to the chantry:the seekers. Cassandra is one and they have been likened to Templar internal affairs. Additionally several of the item descriptions refer to individual Templars chasing apostates.  Now considering that said Templars have been given some cool pieces of kit and any interference in the "divine duty" is a crime against the Maker. I'd say that sounds pretty spectre like.

Also you assume that being a Templar is the limit to their personality. For example there was more to Wynne than simply her being a circle mage and there was more to Leliana than simply being a Bard. Their background shaped who they had become, their beliefs and experiences but they were deeper than that.
Why

 a more adventerous life style as a companion?

Hunting mages is hardly a holiday lounging on the beach.

Should I set up a pit trap for the next one so they don't leave?

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...

Don't get me started on fanfiction

And now you made me curious. Unfortunately then we would get way off-topic, I am afraid.

Also you assume that being a Templar is the limit to their personality. For example there was more to Wynne than simply her being a circle mage and there was more to Leliana than simply being a Bard. Their background shaped who they had become, their beliefs and experiences but they were deeper than that.

This especially applies to someone who has such a harsh job like a templar. There is a lot of conflict inside most of them/some of them/does that don't kick puppies or go "durrrr" in their heads, I think.
I mean, how should a man feel who has to kill a little boy, because he knows that the next moment the kid could turn into a demon and kill innocent people, because he wanted to save his favourite pet from certain death?

Should I set up a pit trap for the next one so they don't leave?

Oh please do.
As fun as talking to you is, it would be nice if we had some more people that stick around...
Am I that bad a host or is the topic just boring?

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:17 .

[HarryThePlotter]

Heretical Sound wrote...

Hunting mages is hardly a holiday lounging on the beach.

Should I set up a pit trap for the next one so they don't leave?

Just in case if it escaped your notice, here's an official story on Flemeth and aTemplar attempting to capture her.

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...
And now you made me curious. Unfortunately then we would get way off-topic, I am afraid.

Simply they're depicted as puppy kicking villains. Namely they hate all mages for no apparent reason and are also rapists(). If you are interested there are bazillions of works here. Just search Amell and you'll see what I mean.

This especially applies to someone who has such a harsh job like a templar. There is a lot of conflict inside most of them/some of them/does that don't kick puppies or go "durrrr" in their heads, I think.
I mean, how should a man feel who has to kill a little boy, because he knows that the next moment the kid could turn into a demon and kill innocent people, because he wanted to save his favourite pet from certain death?

I think I linked the video of killing Connor. Unpleasant to say the least. Listen to a character trying to justify it would be ... dramatic to say the least. Heck you could go down the whole atoner path for the character. Complete with horrific realisation a la Overlord.

Oh please do.
As fun as talking to you is, it would be nice if we had some more people that stick around...
Am I that bad a host or is the topic just boring?

Why do you hate me?



I jest :lol:Actually I think its because of my borderline insanity. Although in my defence essays which are over 5000 words and growing tend to have that effect.

Or maybe its because there is no mention of Bristols in the title or nothing controversial.
Edit: I think I read that ages ago. Heh anything beats the Gaelic Recovery.

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:31 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

Thanks for the link, I haven't read that tale yet.

Heretical Sound wrote...

Simply they're depicted as puppy kicking villains. Namely they hate all mages for no apparent reason and are also rapists(). If you are interested there are bazillions of works here. Just search Amell and you'll see what I mean.

Yes, I read some on that site and I know what you mean. There also are some nice ones, so it's pretty much like with all works of lteracy, there is bad and there is good.
And about the rapist thing: This is I never understood, didn't Alistair say that he learned how to be a gentleman with them templars or am I mixing something up? That could be, since my brain is lagging a bit lately.

I think I linked the video of killing Connor. Unpleasant to say the least. Listen to a character trying to justify it would be ... dramatic to say the least. Heck you could go down the whole atoner path for the character. Complete with horrific realisation a la Overlord.

*nods in agreement* And that is why I would like to see a templar companion.
If we do not get one, then at least I hope the templars in the game don't have too much blood on their robes when I hug them---er I mean shake their hands. Yes.

Or maybe its because there is no mention of Bristols in the title or nothing controversial.

That might be true. Oh well, when I opened the thread I was expecting to see more replies like: "Are you insane? Templars suck! They are all drug addicts and evil!", so this is actually rather nice.

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Yes, I read some on that site and I know what you mean. There also are some nice ones, so it's pretty much like with all works of lteracy, there is bad and there is good.
And about the rapist thing: This is I never understood, didn't Alistair say that he learned how to be a gentleman with them templars or am I mixing something up? That could be, since my brain is lagging a bit lately.

Success! This one thought was quite nice, short but touching.

Eh! For some reason people don't like or can't get the concept of both sides being decent people. It always has to be black and white rather than shades of grey. The guys on the other side can't be normal people fighting for a cause they believe is worthy. No they must be evulz if they fight us. How could anyother situation exist?
That said it has happened throughout human history. Us vs Them. Call your enemy nasty names and eventually you'll think its true.

*nods in agreement* And that is why I would like to see a templar companion.
If we do not get one, then at least I hope the templars in the game don't have too much blood on their robes when I hug them---er I mean shake their hands. Yes.

Lost cause I'm afraid. The unwritten rule is if you have black armour you are evil.

That might be true. Oh well, when I opened the thread I was expecting to see more replies like: "Are you insane? Templars suck! They are all drug addicts and evil!", so this is actually rather nice.

A Templar awhile ago was swamped as such. I don't know where they all went.

[Riona45]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

And about the rapist thing: This is I never understood, didn't Alistair say that he learned how to be a gentleman with them templars or am I mixing something up? That could be, since my brain is lagging a bit lately.

I'm not necessarily in the "templars are rapists" camp (though I have no doubt some are, as any with any given population), but just because Alistair is a gentleman doesn't mean everyone who had the same upbringing is equally a gentleman.

Modifié par Riona45, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:11 .

[Heretical Sound]

Riona45 wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

And about the rapist thing: This is I never understood, didn't Alistair say that he learned how to be a gentleman with them templars or am I mixing something up? That could be, since my brain is lagging a bit lately.

I'm not necessarily in the "templars are rapists" camp (though I have no doubt some are, as any with any given population), but just because Alistair is a gentleman doesn't mean everyone who had the same upbringing is equally a gentleman.

True, very true. That said the fact that it is the only mention of rape in the whole story and the protagonist just happens to be a mage ... it just reeks of a cheap way to villify the Templars. If the villification was done in way that was believable, I wouldn't mind as such. If the story had them as plausible,deep, and complex antagonists I'd be reallly interested. But no I'm subject to another Mary Bloomin Sue.
The Mages never seem to indulge in rapine either ... funny that. <_<

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

Ah, you are right, Riona45, that doesn't mean that everybody is a gentleman, that is true, I am just put out by the fact that they are portrayed in certain works as perverted and leering at mages passing them by.

Well, I think that BioWare handles the different shades of grey rather well in their games, so I am not really afraid of getting my hands too bloodstained while shaking their hands, Heretical Sound.

Furthermore I believe that the people who "hate on" the templars just tend to side with the mages, as they see them as people who are hunted and caged just because of their natural talent, who are just misunderstood and wouldn't cause problems when left alone.
I like the templars, I find them quite interesting, but I understand that, based on the game, you can have a rather bad opinion of them. As Cullen says, that some of them like to hunt and kill mages, and the fact that they were killing all survivors in the tower, should there still be some left.
That doesn't mean that they are all evil bloodhounds with no regards for the life of others who act aggressively without reason, but I see where people might get the idea.

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:25 .

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Ah, you are right, Riona45, that doesn't mean that everybody is a gentleman, that is true, I am just put out by the fact that they are portrayed in certain works as perverted and leering at mages passing them by.

Well, I think that BioWare handles the different shades of grey rather well in their games, so I am not really afraid of getting my hands too bloodstained while shaking their hands, Heretical Sound.

But ... but the black armour. How can you have black and not be evil. Mark my words they'll have horns next:?. Besides blood doesn't show up as much on black.

[Riona45]

Heretical Sound wrote...

True, very true. That said the fact that it is the only mention of rape in the whole story and the protagonist just happens to be a mage ... it just reeks of a cheap way to villify the Templars.

Well, not to defend various fanfiction (I don't read them), but to be fair, the power dynamic of the Circles is such where it's probably much easier for a templar to rape a mage and get away with it than it is for a mage to rape a templar (or anyone else) and get away with it.  Again, I'm not saying that all the templars are a bunch of rapists or that the mage population would not consist of any rapists (they are everywhere).  It's just that isn't not an entirely unjustified or unbelievable plot point to use in a story involving a character who has more political and social power over another character.

[Vandicus]

Heretical Sound wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

There is fanfiction about Cullen who pretty much does nothing more in them then stand around and gaze longingly at the Mage with hearts in his eyes and it still makes for a good read.

Don't get me started on fanfiction

Dear Maker no! Someone spending the whole time talking about how they
hunted down mages and how they had emotional problems as a novice in the
chantry and generic hobbies they picked up! That's even worse than
Velanna. ../../../../images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png

Why
not a city guard? They'd be much more interesting as they spend less
time in church's praying and get to meet all sorts of interesting types
in the streets of major cities. The only interesting templar would be a
Spectre style templar, which as far as we know, doesn't exist.

Well there does seem to be a spectre style element to the chantry:the seekers. Cassandra is one and they have been likened to Templar internal affairs. Additionally several of the item descriptions refer to individual Templars chasing apostates.  Now considering that said Templars have been given some cool pieces of kit and any interference in the "divine duty" is a crime against the Maker. I'd say that sounds pretty spectre like.

Also you assume that being a Templar is the limit to their personality. For example there was more to Wynne than simply her being a circle mage and there was more to Leliana than simply being a Bard. Their background shaped who they had become, their beliefs and experiences but they were deeper than that.
Why

 a more adventerous life style as a companion?

Hunting mages is hardly a holiday lounging on the beach.

Should I set up a pit trap for the next one so they don't leave?

I guess I assumed being a Templar was a limit to their personalities because all of the Templars we've seen so far were fairly one-dimensional. They had their own desires and level of rationality to be sure, but they had those so deeply supressed that they come off as generic. The one templar who revelead his desire to have a family was under demonic manipulation at the time.

They're skilled soldiers trained to defeat mages and with very strong religious devotion. Such characters, even were they to be granted Spectre like legal authority as you maintain, would generally stick within the confines of the law and be very orthodox. Their upbringing discourages thinking outside the box, and they're unlikely to come up with unusual ideas or unusual solutions to problems.

Even a rogue templar would be an essentially one-dimensional character, with his main focus the fact that he left the Chantry out of dislike for killing mages or something along the lines.

I disagree with you about Wynne being more than a Circle Mage. She represented those mages who were content with their lot, helping out others within the confines of the Circle. Benevolent but saddened by the restrictions on her freedoms.

Leliana was more than a bard, true, she was a reformed bard. Basically a rogue bard. The central focus of her character was still the fact that she had been a bard. She abandoned her assassinhood out of necessity and found religion. The fact that she was an assassin who now espouses religion makes her a much deeper character. If she had not been a bard, she would've been rather dull. Basically a person preaching incessantly.

Essentially, their past roles in life defined them. It'd be pretty hard to imagine a plausible templar character who had taken the vows and then pursued a life contrary to the templar standards.

Modifié par Vandicus, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Ah, you are right, Riona45, that doesn't mean that everybody is a gentleman, that is true, I am just put out by the fact that they are portrayed in certain works as perverted and leering at mages passing them by.

Well, I think that BioWare handles the different shades of grey rather well in their games, so I am not really afraid of getting my hands too bloodstained while shaking their hands, Heretical Sound.

But ... but the black armour. How can you have black and not be evil. Mark my words they'll have horns next:?. Besides blood doesn't show up as much on black.

Hehehe, why do you think I had a lot of black shirts until I decided that I can also hide blood on brighter colours? *lightning cracks again*
And as long as one of the templars is like Bran and cracks some jokes, my Lady Hawke will be fine with some blood on his robes.
*cough He won't be wearing them cough*

Riona45, somehow I am reminded of those strange romance novels... I am pretty sure there exists something like that in the library of Vigil's Keep. Totally illegal of course.

I guess I assumed being a Templar was a limit to their personalities
because all of the Templars we've seen so far were fairly
one-dimensional. They had their own desires and level of rationality to
be sure, but they had those so deeply supressed that they come off as
generic. The one templar who revelead his desire to have a family was
under demonic manipulation at the time.

Exactly my point! They tended to come off as one-dimensional and I would like to discover the other dimensions to their character, but we can't do that if we can't talk to them at length.
Though there already are a lot dimensions hidden in the templars in game, you just have to obsess over them enough.

And why wouldn't they be able to fight with Hawke? My Hawke will be pretty lawful too, while kicking ass... Anyway, he might also be swayed by Hawke to change his view on life.
Didn't the devs say something like that is possible?

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:36 .

[Riona45]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Ah, you are right, Riona45, that doesn't mean that everybody is a gentleman, that is true, I am just put out by the fact that they are portrayed in certain works as perverted and leering at mages passing them by.

Of course not all of them would do that.  But it's not unrealistic if some of them are like that.

[HarryThePlotter]

Riona45 wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Ah, you are right, Riona45, that doesn't mean that everybody is a gentleman, that is true, I am just put out by the fact that they are portrayed in certain works as perverted and leering at mages passing them by.

Of course not all of them would do that.  But it's not unrealistic if some of them are like that.

Wouldn't that be a low proportion considering they are religious?

[OmbradelCerberos]

Riona45 wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Ah, you are right, Riona45, that doesn't mean that everybody is a gentleman, that is true, I am just put out by the fact that they are portrayed in certain works as perverted and leering at mages passing them by.

Of course not all of them would do that.  But it's not unrealistic if some of them are like that.

Of course not, sadly not everybody can be an image of virtue and honor. As you said, people with higher social ranking can abuse others more easily.

And about being religious: Sadly we can see how that works out in real life. Still I believe that the rapists are far and in between, especially since Greagoir seems to be rather focused on discipline and not the type of person to let his templars do unnecessary harm to the mages.

But this thread isn't really about if templars abuse their powers and more about the fact if others would be interested in exploring the character of one and would like to add one of them to our companions.

And yes, I am afraid of a lock down, how did you guess?

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:45 .

[Vandicus]

HarryThePlotter wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Ah, you are right, Riona45, that doesn't mean that everybody is a gentleman, that is true, I am just put out by the fact that they are portrayed in certain works as perverted and leering at mages passing them by.

Of course not all of them would do that.  But it's not unrealistic if some of them are like that.

Wouldn't that be a low proportion considering they are religious?

Deeply religious and chaste too. Well chaste as far as I know. I've never heard of a templar having kids and its typical for templars to by chaste historically, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they are. On top of that, they had an opportunity to walk away before taking their vows. They could've become people searching for money for prostitutes if they were that kind of person.

[Heretical Sound]

MariSkep wrote...

. Also templars are taught to view mages as less than human (even Alistair views mages with a certain amount of disdain for no other reason than they are mages).

Do you have any lore or game evidence for this? I'm intrigued. Also isn't Alistair's perspective magic is dangerous, rather than simply because they're mages?

They're skilled soldiers trained to defeat mages and with very
strong religious devotion. Such characters, even were they to be
granted Spectre like legal authority as you maintain, would generally
stick within the confines of the law and be very orthodox. Their
upbringing discourages thinking outside the box, and they're unlikely
to come up with unusual ideas or unusual solutions to problems.

I don't think so. A Templar is above secular state law. They would likely view any assignement as a die trying affair. The consequence to themselves or those around them are irrelevant.

A Templar might be slightly more stoic or reserved but so was Sten. In many ways it would be similar to Morrigan. Both having emotional barriers. In the case of the Templar it would the necessity of carrying their duty at an emotional distance. Behind that they could be any type of individual under the sun.

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:59 .

[HarryThePlotter]

MariSkep wrote...

Maybe, maybe not. Indoctrination can lead to a lot of repressed feelings towards what's taboo

Hmm.. I am not very sure about this. Religious people aren't always evil as they show on telivision. They are mostly nice people. Deviants arise out of chance I would say and not indoctrination.

Also templars are taught to view mages as less than human (even Alistair views mages with a certain amount of disdain for no other reason than they are mages)

This has been discussed endlessly and even fruitlessly. Mages ARE dangerous. To themselves and of course others. There has to be some check. It is rather unfortunate the templars can get the Cullen syndrome. But remember that he was tortured hideously by Blood Mages before that. Any sane person would act like him under that circumstance.

I've noticed in real world religions how that can be used to excuse all sorts of attitudes towards the outcast group.

Not that I don't belive you,but I would like to hear what you are referring to.

Not to mention Templars aren't scholars. They're the militant arm of the
Chantry and are specifically picked for the purpose of waging war
against its enemies.

No. That is misinformation. They are Scholars first. Templars are Chantry brothers first and templars later.

[Riona45]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

And about being religious: Sadly we can see how that works out in real life. Still I believe that the rapists are far and in between, especially since Greagoir seems to be rather focused on discipline and not the type of person to let his templars do unnecessary harm to the mages.

I can definitely buy that the Circle of Ferelden is a less nasty place than other Circles out there (like Kirkwall, if the bit about it being in the "iron grip" of fear is to be believed).  Gregoir wasn't perfect and I definitely had issues with him, but I do agree with Wynne that he is "not unreasonable."

But this thread isn't really about if templars abuse their powers and more about the fact if others would be interested in exploring the character of one and would like to add one of them to our companions.

Fair enough.  My answer to your question would be yes, on both counts.

And yes, I am afraid of a lock down, how did you guess?

From what?  I thought the thread was pretty civil, though I only just entered.

[Heretical Sound]

Riona45 wrote...

From what?  I thought the thread was pretty civil, though I only just entered.

Probably the topic. Rape isn't exactly pleasant. No fault of yours. You have been the model of civility

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[Riona45]

Heretical Sound wrote...


Do you have any lore or game evidence for this? I'm intrigued. Also isn't Alistair's perspective magic is dangerous, rather than simply because they're mages?

Alistair's interaction with a mage (not the PC--just a mage NPC)--when you first meet him--is a bit dubious.  He knows the Chantry mother he is delivering a message for is just playing power games, but he goes along with it anyway, and gets some of his own ribbing in too.  If the PC is a mage, she can mention what she is, and he gets all awkward and uncomfortable (basically saying stuff along the lines of "but you don't look like one" and "I don't want to be turned into a toad").  Alistair is no hateful bigot, but that doesn't mean there's no prejudice there whatsoever.*


*Also, I love Alistair and he's my choice for romance.  I'm just not blind to his faults.

Modifié par Riona45, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Riona45]

Heretical Sound wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

From what?  I thought the thread was pretty civil, though I only just entered.

Probably the topic. Rape isn't exactly pleasant. No fault of yours. You have been the model of civility

Thank you.

I agree with you about the topic.  Normally, I tend not to mention it, but in this case it was relevant (and of course, it's in the game, as well).