198 réponses à ce sujet

[OmbradelCerberos]

Riona45 wrote...

I can definitely buy that the Circle of Ferelden is a less nasty place than other Circles out there (like Kirkwall, if the bit about it being in the "iron grip" of fear is to be believed).  Gregoir wasn't perfect and I definitely had issues with him, but I do agree with Wynne that he is "not unreasonable."

The qunari even cut out the tongues of their mages to keep them from casting, if I got my lore right, so yeah, I think the Circle in Ferelden wouldn't be that bad in comparsion to other alternatives.

From what?  I thought the thread was pretty civil, though I only just entered.

Because I am pretty much a newb in the forums and afraid that this all somehow escalates into a big pro-religious/anti-religious mess as some threads before. But I am starting to become confident that that won't happen. You guys are great.

Hmm..
I am not very sure about this. Religious people aren't always evil as
they show on telivision. They are mostly nice people. Deviants arise out
of chance I would say and not indoctrination.

The Chantry even pays for getting roofs fixed with their Chantry boards.

This has been discussed endlessly and
even fruitlessly. Mages ARE dangerous. To themselves and of course
others. There has to be some check. It is rather unfortunate the
templars can get the Cullen syndrome. But remember that he was tortured
hideously by Blood Mages before that. Any sane person would act like him
under that circumstance.

I agree. We saw what happened with Connor and he just wanted to save his father!

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Heretical Sound]

Riona45 wrote...

Heretical Sound wrote...


Do you have any lore or game evidence for this? I'm intrigued. Also isn't Alistair's perspective magic is dangerous, rather than simply because they're mages?

Alistair's interaction with a mage--when you first meet him--is a bit dubious.  He knows the Chantry mother he is delivering a message for is just playing power games, but he goes along with it anyway.  If the PC is a mage, she can mention what she is, and he gets all awkward and uncomfortable (basically saying stuff along the lines of "but you don't look like one" and "I don't want to be turned into a toad").  Alistair is no hateful bigot, but that doesn't mean there's no prejudice there whatsoever.*


*Also, I love Alistair and he's my choice for romance.  I'm just not blind to his faults.

That might simply be the fact mages can turn anyone they please into a lump of charcoal with a thought. To use a real life example: at the airport I get slightly uncomfortable whenever a police officer goes by replete with submachine gun. The knowledge that he could mow down the entire bag check in queue is discomforting to say the least.

[Riona45]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

The qunari even cut out the tongues of their mages to keep them from casting, if I got my lore right, so yeah, I think the Circle in Ferelden wouldn't be that bad in comparsion to other alternatives.

Mind you, I'm not fond of this argument.  It's basically saying one thing is justified simply because someone else out there much worse.  I think a more cogent argument is that the atmosphere in Ferelden's Circle is mitigated by Gregoir being fairly reasonable and Irving being a staunch (and not unsuccessful) advocate for his students.

Because I am pretty much a newb in the forums and afraid that this all somehow escalates into a big pro-religious/anti-religious mess as some threads before. But I am starting to become confident that that won't happen. You guys are great.

Thank you.

[Riona45]

Heretical Sound wrote...
That might simply be the fact mages can turn anyone they please into a lump of charcoal with a thought. To use a real life example: at the airport I get slightly uncomfortable whenever a police officer goes by replete with submachine gun. The knowledge that he could mow down the entire bag check in queue is discomforting to say the least.

Oh come on.  You asked for clarification about Alistair, and I gave it to you.  Why are you trying to argue with me about it?

Modifié par Riona45, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:11 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

MariSkep wrote...

There's an option once you give him the 'blessed symbols' he wants that goes along the lines of 'but they're not even magical.' He responds by dismissing magic as evil and not of the Maker.

Hmm, you could have misunderstood that.
To me it seemed less anti-magic and more: "But I believe they work! They are from the Maker!"
Could be wrong though.

While I get that Alistair is snide and rude as a general rule, the opening scene with him and that mage always seemed pretty damning to me. Even Duncan feels he was being unnecessarily insulting.

I think Duncan was more upset that Alistair has to sass everyone that can't defend himself, if it's a mage or not, since Duncan wants to keep peace. Alistair seems a little...dubious about getting turned into a toad, yes,  but I think he rather snarks at the mage, because the mage is trying to "shoot the messenger", so to say, and being grumpy.

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[Vandicus]

Earlier when we were discussing what kind of moral character and personality a templar companion might plausibly have it was reasonably related to the topic. I think we're deviating a bit too far here in discussing particular bigotries a companion character may or may not have had.



Greagoir seemed to be a level-headed and intelligent templar. The fact they can be that way shows what kind of companion we'd likely have.Mages have claimed that templars were kind to them before. I seem to remember Wynne or some other mage mentioning a templar that brought her pieces of candy.



Bioware is not going to make a ridiculously bigoted character who is just a pain to have in the party because he is so bossy. Its not fun to have that sort of character. Going to the extremes of possible CCs does not serve a purpose. Discussing how interesting possible templar companions are does serve a purpose.

[Riona45]

Heretical Sound wrote...
That might simply be the fact mages can turn anyone they please into a lump of charcoal with a thought.

Actually, now that I think about it, IS this a fact?  Maybe there are some mages who can do this, but my mage PC certainly couldn't.

[OmbradelCerberos]

Riona45 wrote...

Mind you, I'm not fond of this argument.  It's basically saying one thing is justified simply because someone else out there much worse.  I think a more cogent argument is that the atmosphere in Ferelden's Circle is mitigated by Gregoir being fairly reasonable and Irving being a staunch (and not unsuccessful) advocate for his students.

What I was trying to say was, that if the alternatives are getting hunted and killed, having to live in fear in the Circle of Kirkwall or living at the Circle with at least some sort of balance, I'd choose that circle over being an apostate or the other cirlce.
Also I am rather fond of my tongue, so the qunari method would be rather unpleasant for me too.

[Riona45]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...
What I was trying to say was, that if the alternatives are getting hunted and killed, having to live in fear in the Circle of Kirkwall or living at the Circle with at least some sort of balance, I'd choose that circle over being an apostate or the other cirlce.

Not that most Circle mages ever actually got to choose.

[OmbradelCerberos]

Vandicus wrote...

Earlier when we were discussing what kind of moral character and personality a templar companion might plausibly have it was reasonably related to the topic. I think we're deviating a bit too far here in discussing particular bigotries a companion character may or may not have had.

Greagoir seemed to be a level-headed and intelligent templar. The fact they can be that way shows what kind of companion we'd likely have.Mages have claimed that templars were kind to them before. I seem to remember Wynne or some other mage mentioning a templar that brought her pieces of candy.

Bioware is not going to make a ridiculously bigoted character who is just a pain to have in the party because he is so bossy. Its not fun to have that sort of character. Going to the extremes of possible CCs does not serve a purpose. Discussing how interesting possible templar companions are does serve a purpose.

You are right, still it was interesting to discuss.
I personally would like to see a templar who is bored at his momentary duty and actually pretty excited to get away from the mage watching and standind around looking like a very well armed piece of decoration, but who would at the beginning try to conceal that fact, before relaxing.

And now why do I imagine a templar that is fond of feeding birds?

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:22 .

[Heretical Sound]

Riona45 wrote...

Heretical Sound wrote...
That might simply be the fact mages can turn anyone they please into a lump of charcoal with a thought. To use a real life example: at the airport I get slightly uncomfortable whenever a police officer goes by replete with submachine gun. The knowledge that he could mow down the entire bag check in queue is discomforting to say the least.

Oh come on.  You asked for clarification about Alistair, and I gave it to you.  Why are you trying to argue with me about it?

Sorry if it came across that way. But if my study of history has taught me anything it is that you can't accept anything uncritically. You can interpret things in different ways. Do Alistair's comments show bigotry or don't they? Discuss. There's ad hominem involved simply debate.

Actually, now that I think about it, IS this a fact?  Maybe there are
some mages who can do this, but my mage PC certainly couldn't.

Precisely:). However it's worth pointing out that mages are subject to a lot of ignorance. Most of Thedas can't tell what spells a mage can perform. They don't need to however in orsder for them to be afraid.

[Riona45]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

I personally would like some sort of companion like Bran..

Who is this?

[Vandicus]

Riona45 wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

I personally would like some sort of companion like Bran..

Who is this?

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Templar_Bran

A doorman from the mage origin.

[Riona45]

Heretical Sound wrote...

Sorry if it came across that way. But if my study of history has taught me anything it is that you can't accept anything uncritically. You can interpret things in different ways.

Are you implying that I'm accepting things uncritically, unaware that they can be interpreted differently?

You asked for an example of Alistair being prejudiced towards mages as people, as opposed to magic.  I gave you what I felt was the most solid example from my memory (and remember, I was actually playing a mage and got extra dialogue to that effect as a result).  It did come off to me that you were simply pooh-poohing that.

And you also have to keep in mind that I'm an Alistair lover, not an Alistair hater.  That must count for something with regards to my comments being thoughtful rather than born out of anti-Alistair bias.

Modifié par Riona45, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

The guy standing at the door in the mage origin. if you walk up to the two templars guarding the door, the right one will tell you to talk to Bran, saying that he is the chatty one.

Quotes:

Warden: "This is a big door." " Yes, yes it is. Now are you here to state the obvious or do you need something."

Warden: " What's outside?" "Ferelden, not very interesting, Some farms, the occassional river."



He is pretty friendly all in all with a rather dry sense of humor.

[Riona45]

Vandicus wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Templar_Bran

A doorman from the mage origin.

Thanks for the link.

That guy?  He seemed all right, but there was only a little dialogue with him.  Not enough to really know what kind of person he was, in my opinion.

[OmbradelCerberos]

Riona45 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Templar_Bran

A doorman from the mage origin.

Thanks for the link.

That guy?  He seemed all right, but there was only a little dialogue with him.  Not enough to really know what kind of person he was, in my opinion.

Obsess over him enough and it is. *laughs*
*cough As I do cough*

MariSkep, I would have taken him and Alistair. Can you imagine the banter? It would have been great.

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 04 septembre 2010 - 11:31 .

[HarryThePlotter]

MariSkep wrote...

That's easy enough to check. If you're right youd expect healthy attitudes to develop among indoctrinated individuals towards what''s taboo and pagan.

I am sorry. My intelligence is only 12 (+2). You will have to explain this to me. Are you trying to say that we should have healthy attitude towards things labelled Taboo? You know what comes under that category right?

That's not what I'm talking about but I'd like to think I have a little more moral fiber than to flip out and mow down the next town of Afghanis I see because my squad was on the bad end of an ambush.

.......
A better analogy would be this: Your crew is murdered by Taliban terrorists (mages). You are tortured unmentionably (Blood mage mind-screw). You manage to escape and reach a village (mages' tower) where you see more Afganis with Guns (mages). You know the terrorists who.. tortured you were from the same village (Tower).

Carrying Guns is important in this scenario as their power is a good indicator of separation of harmless and potentialy harmful. When these Afganis are also carrying guns, what would your first reaction be? Would it be to peacefully ask them to cooperate?

you can say that you will spy upon them and other intelligence complicated stuff. Remember that you were tortured an hour/day ago. Hideously. That may impair your judgement. Don't be too harsh with Cullen. Try to understand what HE went through.

Let's take gays for example. I'm aquainted with a fellow who was out with a friend, picked up a prostitute and than later beat her senseless. Why? She was a transvestite.

First Off, Gays and Transvestite aren't always the same thing, to my limited information. Perhaps you know better. Secondly, this friend of yours was clearly not chaste or religious. He was just a Homophobe.

From the codex " the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry." There's a reason they are always armed and armored. Their primary function is clear.

Err... I think you forgot what you said earlier. I would request you to check on it.

[Heretical Sound]

Riona45 wrote...
Are you implying that I'm accepting things uncritically, unaware that they can be interpreted differently?

You asked for an example of Alistair being prejudiced towards mages as people, as opposed to magic.  I gave you what I felt was the most solid example from my memory (and remember, I was actually playing a mage and got extra dialogue to that effect as a result).  It did come off to me that you were simply pooh-poohing that.

And you also have to keep in mind that I'm an Alistair lover, not an Alistair hater.  That must count for something with regards to my comments being thoughtful rather than born out of anti-Alistair bias.

I'm not even going to say anything. I'll let the smiley convey it all.