198 réponses à ce sujet

[ZaroktheImmortal]

That would be a bit awkward with the mage sister and even more so if you play as a mage.

[andreas 1211]

lol yeah and imagine the conversations he would have with morrigan or different postates XD.

templar:If you give me lyrium wont kill you

morrigan:How about you give me a new staff and i can promise that you will die a swift death

[Dave of Canada]

elfdwarf wrote...

why not apostate templars

I can imagine this.

"Oh my god, the templar ran away! Hunt him down!"
[Half the templars are chasing after another templar, blood mages escape from the tower]
"Si-sir, bl-blood m-mages are e-escap-"
"Shut up! I WANT THAT TEMPLAR FOUND!"

Actually. That sounds pretty close to what the templars in Ferelden would do.

[OmbradelCerberos]

Dave of Canada wrote...

elfdwarf wrote...

why not apostate templars

I can imagine this.

"Oh my god, the templar ran away! Hunt him down!"
[Half the templars are chasing after another templar, blood mages escape from the tower]
"Si-sir, bl-blood m-mages are e-escap-"
"Shut up! I WANT THAT TEMPLAR FOUND! He has our cookies!"

Actually. That sounds pretty close to what the templars in Ferelden would do.

And now I just see all the templars tripping over their skirts and falling over face first, while the renegade templar and the bloodmages escape.
Greagoir: *sigh and facepalm*

[OmbradelCerberos]

Some 'new' info on the templars in DA2: Kirkwall not only has the biggest center of templars in all of Eastern Thedas, it also has the biggest Circle of Magi in the Free Marches and in this atmosphere will arise the conflict between freedom vs security, which will be an important plot of DA2.

Another thing that would make a templar companion interesting: Alistair notes that the templars aren't only defenders, but an army. That means that, similar to the Catholic Church, the Chantry has actual military power and with that strong political weight. In Kirkwall, the templars simply overthrew the ruler, the Viscount of Kirkwall, Perrin Threnold, after he tried to have the templars
expelled from the city.

It would be interesting to hear a templar, possibly a renegade one, talk about this events, maybe after he/she was a part of the conflict?

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

 it also has the biggest Circle of Magi in the Free Marches and in this atmosphere will arise the conflict between freedom vs security, which will be an important plot of DA2.

Hurray so Templars are guranteed some involvement. That said they could curb stomping puppies so I retract my happiness for now.

freedom vs security

This is what the debate concerning Mages and Templars essentially reduces down to. In many ways its a paradox: Templars protect the lives and liberty of the Chantries flock from the threat posed by magic and the fade. Yet in order to do so they restrict the liberty of the Mages and in some cases kill them.

The chief problem I have with arguments against the circles existance is simply they don't work. They are too idealised. Humans are corruptible and fickle beings. People will take what they can provided 1. they think they can get away with it and 2 have the power to make it happen. If the circles were simply to vanish there would be no effective means of policing Mages. Should the worse happen and possession strike many would die for the sake of the liberty of one Mage. I personally can't justify that. Of course if someone were to propose an alternative to the circle that worked and could be implemented realistically I'd change my stance ... but I'm still waiting. 
(Note argument for circle is more extensive but time is limited.)

It would be interesting to hear a templar, possibly a renegade one, talk about this events, maybe after he/she was a part of the conflict?

Why do we need renegades? If the Templar in question has to be renegade in order to be palatable then the main body must have taken up puppy kicking. As a fan of pragmatism in my characters, having everything monochrome is rather dull. If I make a hard choice I want to feel it, I can get idealism from numerous other works.

If we were to have a Templar as a companion then naturally they'd have to reflect that to a certain extent. But that doesn't mean a dour, humourless character with a stick up there arse. I've said it before, but the nature of a Templar's' work requires emotional difference. Feelings are likely going to be repressed. How does said individual deal with the guilt. Do they say it was right and good but do their actions say otherwise. Or perhaps we could have someone who acknowledges it was a terrible thing they did. They accept the emotional turmoil as a price that must be paid.

Many praise Morrigan's character for being deep. With her cold exterior but vulnerable interior. Not my opinion but thats what I've heard people say so I'll run with it. A Templar companion would likely have similar emotional armour. Just sayin' . No bristols though:(. Or then again maybe . But then again celibacy . Maybe they'll make an exception .

Also for further reference Ombradel

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...
Hurray so Templars are guranteed some involvement. That said they could curb stomping puppies so I retract my happiness for now.

Well, David Gaider said the following concerning the conflict: "Abraham Lincoln once said: 'Who chooses security over freedom, deserves neither.'"
I think that this also influences how we are meant to see the templars in the DA universe. They are not the better choice. But this is just speculation on my part.

This is what the debate concerning Mages and Templars essentially reduces down to. In many ways its a paradox: Templars protect the lives and liberty of the Chantries flock from the threat posed by magic and the fade. Yet in order to do so they restrict the liberty of the Mages and in some cases kill them.

The chief problem I have with arguments against the circles existance is simply they don't work. They are too idealised. Humans are corruptible and fickle beings. People will take what they can provided 1. they think they can get away with it and 2 have the power to make it happen. If the circles were simply to vanish there would be no effective means of policing Mages. Should the worse happen and possession strike many would die for the sake of the liberty of one Mage. I personally can't justify that. Of course if someone were to propose an alternative to the circle that worked and could be implemented realistically I'd change my stance ... but I'm still waiting. 
(Note argument for circle is more extensive but time is limited.)

http://greywardens.c...s-and-morality/

This article makes a similar point and I agree. Though I, as do most people in the society I know, too prefer freedom over a tight security blanket, I think that it is easy to talk about freedom being better than security, when I never really experienced lack of the security I am so used too.

Why do we need renegades? If the Templar in question has to be renegade in order to be palatable then the main body must have taken up puppy kicking. As a fan of pragmatism in my characters, having everything monochrome is rather dull. If I make a hard choice I want to feel it, I can get idealism from numerous other works.

If we were to have a Templar as a companion then naturally they'd have to reflect that to a certain extent. But that doesn't mean a dour, humourless character with a stick up there arse. I've said it before, but the nature of a Templar's' work requires emotional difference. Feelings are likely going to be repressed. How does said individual deal with the guilt. Do they say it was right and good but do their actions say otherwise. Or perhaps we could have someone who acknowledges it was a terrible thing they did. They accept the emotional turmoil as a price that must be paid.

Many praise Morrigan's character for being deep. With her cold exterior but vulnerable interior. Not my opinion but thats what I've heard people say so I'll run with it. A Templar companion would likely have similar emotional armour. Just sayin' . No bristols though:(. Or then again maybe . But then again celibacy . Maybe they'll make an exception .

Well, we know that templars can marry, so I somehow doubt that they have vows of celibacy. I am still trying to figure that out.
What I meant was, it would be interesting to have a templar companion talk out of the needle case about the political involvement of the templars and I think a templar who was thrown out of the order for some reason would be more willing to share then one who still has to worry about his superiors making him do latrine duty.

Still that bit:

  I've said it before, but the nature of a Templar's' work
requires emotional difference. Feelings are likely going to be
repressed. How does said individual deal with the guilt. Do they say it
was right and good but do their actions say otherwise. Or perhaps we
could have someone who acknowledges it was a terrible thing they did.
They accept the emotional turmoil as a price that must be paid.

sums up nicely what I would look forward to in a templar companion.

[HarryThePlotter]

Heretical Sound wrote...
Hurray so Templars are guranteed some involvement. That said they could curb stomping puppies so I retract my happiness for now.

With Daady Hawke and Sister Hawke (possibly Hee-Hawke too, if you choose Mage origin) being Apostate mages, this is ought to happen . Tragic, I know. Templars wil be forever maligned I fear unless Cassandra turns the tables by sacrifing the Templar forces to save innocent civilians to save people. Only the unltimate sacrifice can bring end to a propganda....

This is what the debate concerning Mages and Templars essentially reduces down to. In many ways its a paradox: Templars protect the lives and liberty of the Chantries flock from the threat posed by magic and the fade. Yet in order to do so they restrict the liberty of the Mages and in some cases kill them.

The chief problem I have with arguments against the circles existance is simply they don't work. They are too idealised. Humans are corruptible and fickle beings. People will take what they can provided 1. they think they can get away with it and 2 have the power to make it happen. If the circles were simply to vanish there would be no effective means of policing Mages. Should the worse happen and possession strike many would die for the sake of the liberty of one Mage. I personally can't justify that. Of course if someone were to propose an alternative to the circle that worked and could be implemented realistically I'd change my stance ... but I'm still waiting. 
(Note argument for circle is more extensive but time is limited.)

I see that you penchant for sanity hasn't vanished. As we talked about earlier, self-declared social reformers have just one weapon mostly... Its Glory to the revolution! Damn the consequences!

Honestly how many Martin Luthers and Martin Luther Kings has the world really known? On the other hand, when will the tide of terrorism abate?

[OmbradelCerberos]

HarryThePlotter wrote...

Heretical Sound wrote...
Hurray so Templars are guranteed some involvement. That said they could curb stomping puppies so I retract my happiness for now.

With Daady Hawke and Sister Hawke (possibly Hee-Hawke too, if you choose Mage origin) being Apostate mages, this is ought to happen . Tragic, I know. Templars wil be forever maligned I fear unless Cassandra turns the tables by sacrifing the Templar forces to save innocent civilians to save people. Only the unltimate sacrifice can bring end to a propganda....

Yes, I fear this as well, especially since it is hinted that the current ruler is only a puppet of the templars and that the order is the new 'tyrant' of Kirkwall. There is never redemption for tyrants.
Still, I'd hope that a companion would offer another point of view before we, as a player, need to make any decisions on their future  in Kirkwall or maybe even all of Thedas.
With three or two members of your close family being apostates, we really, really don't have an unbiased view on them.

I see that you penchant for sanity hasn't vanished. As we talked about earlier, self-declared social reformers have just one weapon mostly... Its Glory to the revolution! Damn the consequences!

Honestly how many Martin Luthers and Martin Luther Kings has the world really known? On the other hand, when will the tide of terrorism abate?

This is true. Though I think the best example for a social revolutioner is still Ghandi. He had the right idea.

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Well, David Gaider said the following concerning the conflict: "Abraham Lincoln once said: 'Who chooses security over freedom, deserves neither.'"
I think that this also influences how we are meant to see the templars in the DA universe. They are not the better choice. But this is just speculation on my part.

What is meant by freedom? I mean one can hardly enjoy liberty if they're dead.

http://greywardens.com/2010/04/dragon-age-templars-and-morality/

This article makes a similar point and I agree. Though I, as do most people in the society I know, too prefer freedom over a tight security blanket, I think that it is easy to talk about freedom being better than security, when I never really experienced lack of the security I am so used too.

We never really see the means by which security is established. We take our 'freedom for granted. The work of police officers fighting crime largely goes unnoticed. It is a demanding job with little reward. Theres also the whole palava with protection from foreign threats but that's a landmine waiting to go boom. Of course are we really free in Western society? Don't we pay taxes and are forced to abide by laws set down by a body we 'elected'? The current English governemnt wasn't technically elected but I digress.

I believe a famous quotation is rather apt
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Well, we know that templars can marry, so I somehow doubt that they have vows of celibacy. I am still trying to figure that out.
What I meant was, it would be interesting to have a templar companion talk out of the needle case about the political involvement of the templars and I think a templar who was thrown out of the order for some reason would be more willing to share then one who still has to worry about his superiors making him do latrine duty.

But if a Templar was travelling with Hawke, I doubt they would be overly concerned about their supervisors. Unless they are hiding in the bushes.

HarryThePlotter
I see that you penchant for sanity hasn't vanished. As we talked
about earlier, self-declared social reformers have just one weapon
mostly... Its Glory to the revolution! Damn the consequences!

Honestly
how many Martin Luthers and Martin Luther Kings has the world really
known? On the other hand, when will the tide of terrorism abate?

If I could simply make the world better by wishing so I'd do it but that's not how it works. Change takes time. Look at the end of Apartheid. Theoretically everything was supposed to be sunshine and daisys after but it wasn't. Old predjudices and biases don't vanish overnight.

Simply ignoring the realities of a situation won't make them go away.

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:38 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...
What is meant by freedom? I mean one can hardly enjoy liberty if they're dead.

Hmm... This is a good question. Reminds me of my philosophy classes.
As I see it, the ultimate freedom is the freedom of the Stoa, the freedom from all wordly urges and disappointments, reached by accepting whatever fates throws at you.
It is also an impossible freedom, one that can only be reached in death ( if you believe in some sort of concience that survives the mortal body) as we, as living beings, are not above wordly urges, like the need for comfort and security. The need for security is one of our most primal needs and one of the ones that must be satisfied before we move on to satisfying the others. But I believe this is off-topic.

But if a Templar was travelling with Hawke, I doubt they would be overly concerned about their supervisors. Unless they are hiding in the bushes.

Of course they are! They are everywhere!
This brings us to another point: Why would a templar join Hawke? This question is hard to answer sicne we know nothing about Hawke's 'mission', but does anybody have an idea?

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...
Dark Magic

Ahh Philosophy it burns. Take it off us. Please I'll do anything. Raise idols in your name. Anything but the philosophy.

Of course they are! They are everywhere!
This brings us to another point: Why would a templar join Hawke? This question is hard to answer sicne we know nothing about Hawke's 'mission', but does anybody have an idea?

Cullen is watching you. Always.

Honour:innocent:? Revenge:devil:? Aligning of interests:mellow:? Bethany:wub:?
I think it really does depend on Hawkes mission. And the personality of said hypothetical Templar who has an uncanny resemblace to Bran. Mmm... he's so dreamy<3.


That was not mockery in any shape or form.:innocent:

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[Spartansfan8888]

Maybe your warrior brother Carver joins the chantry after y'all escape? That'd be interesting having an apostate sister and templar brother maybe having to join forces or having to fight/kill one because they are of opposing factions.

[OmbradelCerberos]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...
Maybe your warrior brother Carver joins the chantry after y'all escape?
That'd be interesting having an apostate sister and templar brother
maybe having to join forces or having to fight/kill one because they are
of opposing factions.

That would also be very interesting! Especially sicne we have the ten-year frame, it could be that he joins you again at a later time, after havign spent some time with the templars. Though I doubt he would 'betray' his family like that.

Heretical Sound wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...
Dark Magic

Ahh Philosophy it burns. Take it off us. Please I'll do anything. Raise idols in your name. Anything but the philosophy.

OmbradelCerberos used Philosophy. It was super effective. I needed to write a 4 page essay today, about Francis' Bacon New Atlantis. Should I read it to you?

Cullen is watching you. Always.

I knew it! 

Bethany:wub:?

This. would be. so funny.

Hawke: Err, Beth?
Beth: Yes?
Hawke: There is a templer following you around.
Beth: Oh, that's just -insert name here-
Templar:
Hawke: Okay....

I think it really does depend on Hawkes mission. And said hypothetical Templar who has an uncanny resemblace to Bran. Mmm... he's so dreamy<3.

I'd really like to see a templar join Hawke because of honour. Or revenge, that would be interesting too.

I am glad you agree about Bran. Though he could be really, really ugly under that bucket, you know that, right?

That was not mockery in any shape or form.:innocent:

Good, because this is a serious discussion and if you were mocking me, I would have to talk about the Stoa again.

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:07 .

[Heretical Sound]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Maybe your warrior brother Carver joins the chantry after y'all escape? That'd be interesting having an apostate sister and templar brother maybe having to join forces or having to fight/kill one because they are of opposing factions.

You know that idea is incredibly appealing. The story potential would be nothing short of amazing. That said I couldn't help but envision said scenario.

Carver: Witch!
Bethany: Murderer!
Carver: Demonspawn!
Bethany: Bootlicker!
Hawke: That's it! One more word out of either of you and I swear by the Maker I'll turn this whole expedition around. Then nobody will get to kill any Qunari.

OmbradelCerberos wrote...
OmbradelCerberos
used Philosophy. It was super effective. I needed to write a 4 page
essay today, about Francis' Bacon New Atlantis. Should I read it to you?

You measure essays in pages? Mine are measured in tears.

This. would be. so funny.

Hawke: Err, Beth?
Beth: Yes?
Hawke: There is a templer following you around.
Beth: Oh, that's just -insert name here-
Templar: [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]
Hawke: Okay....[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

As long as said Templar isn't Carver that would be good.

I'd really like to see a templar join Hawke because of honour. Or revenge, that would be interesting too.

I am glad you agree about Bran.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie] Though he could be really, really ugly under that bucket, you know that, right?

Never! He's the handsomest handsome that ever handed some handsomely.

Good, because this is a serious discussion and if you were mocking me, I would have to talk about the Stoa again.

Not the Stoa! Besides we the English have our sense of humour surgically
removed at a young age. Have to maintain our stern demeanor.

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Maybe your warrior brother Carver joins the chantry after y'all escape? That'd be interesting having an apostate sister and templar brother maybe having to join forces or having to fight/kill one because they are of opposing factions.

You know that idea is incredibly appealing. The story potential would be nothing short of amazing. That said I couldn't help but envision said scenario.

Carver: Witch!
Bethany: Murderer!
Carver: Demonspawn!
Bethany: Bootlicker!
Hawke: That's it! One more word out of either of you and I swear by the Maker I'll turn this whole expedition around. Then nobody will get to kill any Qunari.

Hehehe, that would be great. Oh, I can just imagine, how miserable he would feel at the beginning of the training, when at the word apostate, always images of his father and sister pop up, but then he sees a real abomination and he will have nightmares for days.
Intruiging indeed.

As long as said Templar isn't Carver that would be good.

Of course, this would be for a non-related templar.

Never! He's the handsomest handsome that ever handed some handsomely.

 Good to know. That disturbign thought has been keepign me up for days, but now I can rest easy.

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Hehehe, that would be great. Oh, I can just imagine, how miserable he would feel at the beginning of the training, when at the word apostate, always images of his father and sister pop up, but then he sees a real abomination and he will have nightmares for days.
Intruiging indeed.

But Carver has already seen an abomination. Bethany's bristols are possessed.

Of course, this would be for a non-related templar.

Just making sure. You can never tell with some people.

Somewhere there is a kink fanfiction about him, where the mage thought the same.

You seem to know an awful lot about this.

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Hehehe, that would be great. Oh, I can just imagine, how miserable he would feel at the beginning of the training, when at the word apostate, always images of his father and sister pop up, but then he sees a real abomination and he will have nightmares for days.
Intruiging indeed.

But Carver has already seen an abomination. Bethany's bristols are possessed.

<_<
What is it with you and bristols?

And then, after a few years Carver could come back to the family and be really, really suspicious of Bethany, since he is afraid she might turn into an abomination any second, seeing as she never had proper 'Circle training'.

Just making sure. You can never tell with some people.

If incest would be appealing to me, I would feel much more comfortable in the Devil may Cry fandom.

Modifié par OmbradelCerberos, 07 septembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[Heretical Sound]

Heretical Sound wrote...

But Carver has already seen an abomination. Bethany's hands are possessed.

OmbradelCerberos worte...
<_<
What is it with you and bristols?

What? Whenever have I mentioned Bristols? Never have I mentioned Bristols. Have I mentioned Bristols?

Heretical Sound's Ghost wrote...
No you haven't mentioned Bristols.

See I have never brought Bristols into a conversation. I think you must be obsessed with Bristols. You seem to go on about Bristols an awful lot.

And then, after a few years Carver could come back to the family and be really, really suspicious of Bethany, since he is afraid she might turn into an abomination any second, seeing as she never had proper 'Circle training'.

Hurray for drama.

If incest would be appealing to me, I would feel much more comfortable in the Devil may Cry forum.

I spy a spy ...

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:47 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

Would you please kindly cease talking about bristols?

Well, I thought we were in for the drama, when we agreed that a templar companion would be great to have. Family drama is a nice addition.

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Would you please kindly cease talking about bristols?

I never get away with nuthin'

Well, I thought we were in for the drama, when we agreed that a templar companion would be great to have. Family drama is a nice addition.

More drama, you can never have enough.
Aveline: Hawke I think I'm pregnant
*gasp*
Aveline:And your son is the father.
*gasp*
Hawke: I don't even have a son ..
*gasp*
Wesley: Yes you do
*gasp*
Hawke: :blink:That doesn't even make sense.

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 06 septembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...
More drama, you can never have enough.
Aveline: Hawke I think I'm pregnant
*gasp*
Aveline:And your son is the father.
*gasp*
Hawke: I don't even have a son ..
*gasp*
Wesley: Yes you do
*gasp*
Hawke: :blink:That doesn't even make sense.

And then Hawke's brother tries to rape Hawke's girlfriend and she shoots him and Imogen Heap plays in the background.

Hmm... So, if templars can marry, what could be their vows?

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Hmm... So, if templars can marry, what could be their vows?

Death to the Apostates
Harm to the Apostates
Discomfort to the Apostates
Embarassment to the Apostates
Obfuscation to the Apostates.

Example of the first five of 3495 vows.

[OmbradelCerberos]

Heretical Sound wrote...

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Hmm... So, if templars can marry, what could be their vows?

Death to the Apostates
Harm to the Apostates
Discomfort to the Apostates
Embarassment to the Apostates
Obfuscation to the Apostates.

Example of the first five of 3495 vows.

Sword to the faces of the Apostates
Sword to the necks of the Apostates
Cookies to the Knight-Commander

Hmm...  I really like the new armor.

[Heretical Sound]

OmbradelCerberos wrote...

Hmm...  I really like the new armor.

But they look evil. All they need now is horns and spiky bits. Possibly big axes as well.