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The Geth Heretics & Paragon/Renegade


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#1
In Exile

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I found the moral dillema of re-writing the geth interesting, but it always made me wonder about the paragon/renegade rationale in that mission. I suppose it was intended as a 'save lives' versus 'kill' choice, but I really don't think the moral abhorence of the mind control choice was investigated.

I just find killing the geth heretics the more humane choice - after all, they choose war, they choose to develop a horrific weapon; this is just reprisal. Mind-controlling them forever seems a far more horrible choice.

As it stands, to me, the re-write choice was more renegede, because it focused on the utility of the geth versus the abhorence of mind-control, whereas the the explode 'em choice at least respect their agency, even as enemies.

I'm curious what others think re: the morality of re-writing the heretics.

Modifié par In Exile, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .


#2
Prince Keldar

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I agree. I was always torn between that choice. Really the only one in the game that is really tough to choose between.

Usually I try to get my Paragon as high as I can by that point and then choose to kill them. Also, after Tali's trial, I understand that even though my paragon shepard has urged peace between Geth/Quarians there is still the possibility of the war being resumed. I want the Quarians to be in the best possible position for the possible war.

That means less geth.

edit.  I think you could make an argument for both decisions being Renegade and or Paragon.  Thats why the choice is difficult.  Because I can see the benefits of both sides.

Modifié par Prince Keldar, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:11 .


#3
adriano_c

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Yeah, it's a bit of contentious issue, apparently. The whole brainwashing business strikes me as a bit more insidious than outright killing them. 'Renegade' actions are considered 'bold moves' (per the loading screen tips), so I guess blowing them all up is fitting for this style. Paragon just seems...less confrontational, rather than 'good'.

Modifié par adriano_c, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:13 .


#4
In Exile

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I suppose that's one way of looking at it. The thing is, Omega and some of the paragon/renegade options there are just boyscout/jerkass, with each being equally bold. I just feel like the writers could never make up their minds about what the morality system represented (which is why IMO it should just go completely).

I like the choice, I'm just curious as to why given the moral dichotomy brain-washing is apparently more human than murder. I'd certainly rather be dead than have my entire identity taken apart and rebuilt; that's just a more insiduous kind of dying.

#5
major_threat

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Well I thought it was more de-brainwashing them because Sovereign had bended these geth to his own will. And having them join the geth will make their race stronger as a whole.

#6
Eber

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The heretics were behaving inappropriatly. To live productive lives they needed treatment. They got it. It's not horrible. Reconditioning people that behave destructively is perfectly acceptable by any human standard I know. People are always working to change how people around them think and behave. It might be a therapist trying to teach a rapist not to rape or a child trying to get his mother to love him. It just sounds more extreme when you do it to computers because their way of thinking is easier to understand and the manipulation of it as a result more concrete.

#7
adriano_c

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In Exile wrote...

I suppose that's one way of looking at
it. The thing is, Omega and some of the paragon/renegade options there
are just boyscout/jerkass, with each being equally bold. I just feel
like the writers could never make up their minds about what the morality
system represented (which is why IMO it should just go completely).
I
like the choice, I'm just curious as to why given the moral dichotomy
brain-washing is apparently more human than murder. I'd certainly rather
be dead than have my entire identity taken apart and rebuilt; that's
just a more insiduous kind of dying.


Well, there's the rationale of "I'd rather be X than dead."

Modifié par adriano_c, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:22 .


#8
RiouHotaru

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I realize that people see the "rewritting" as Renegade is the issue that Legion brings up. You're comparing the Geth and judging them based on human morals and societial standards. For them, rewritting their programming isn't the same thing as mind-control. To compare it to mind-control and to judge it accordingly is racism, even if it's benign.



You just have to remember, they view things from a completely different perspective and from a different set of principles.

#9
Prince Keldar

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Yeah and it is either in one of the conversations just before or when you actually make the choice but when you choose the renegade/blowing them up option, Shepard's explanation seems to be surprisingly paragon.



At least to me, of course everyone is different and may see it differently.




#10
In Exile

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major_threat wrote...

Well I thought it was more de-brainwashing them because Sovereign had bended these geth to his own will. And having them join the geth will make their race stronger as a whole.


Was that really the case? From what Legion said it sounded like Sovereign came to the geth, offered them something, and a small part of the geth left with it. If Sovereign could mind-control geth in the first place, why not mind control them all?

Eber wrote...
The heretics were behaving inappropriatly.
To live productive lives they needed treatment. They got it. It's not
horrible. Reconditioning people that behave destructively is perfectly
acceptable by any human standard I know.


"Reconditioning"?

I think you're talking about therapy, but you have some very strange ideas about what therapy is. For one, therapy generally involves the consent of the other person. Two, there are no invasive mind drugs that literally allow you to re-write the personality, goals and desires of another person.

People are always working to
change how people around them think and behave. It might be a therapist
trying to teach a rapist not to rape or a child trying to get his mother
to love him.


Right, see, teach, not drug and re-wire his brain. Also, therapy has low success rates with most conditions Basically, this is nothing like how it actually works.

t just sounds more extreme when you do it to computers
because their way of thinking is easier to understand and the
manipulation of it as a result more concrete.


No, that has nothing to do with it. If we sat down with the Heretics and had a nice chat by the fireside and follwed up with some CBT that would be one thing. Re-writing minds - that's quite another.

Modifié par In Exile, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:28 .


#11
In Exile

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RiouHotaru wrote...
For them, rewritting their programming isn't the same thing as mind-control. To compare it to mind-control and to judge it accordingly is racism, even if it's benign.

You just have to remember, they view things from a completely different perspective and from a different set of principles.


Actually, I felt that this was precisely the horror that Legion felt in light of what the Heretics were doing. To him, the notion that you pursue your own path to development is the essence of being geth. If you destroy the Collector base, he favourably compares you to the geth precisely because of this.

So I think that by the standard of the geth - autonomy of development - what the heretics are doing is, well, immoral of the highest order.

#12
defenestrated

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This may have been my favorite decision in ME2, followed by whether to save the Genophage research and whether to save the Collector station. Either decision is morally questionable.



If you took out the emphasis on what a small change this actually is for the Geth and (more importantly) Legion's vote indicating the majority narrowly favored rewriting the Heretics over destroying them all, I'm not sure it could be a Paragon option.

#13
Eber

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I think you're talking about therapy, but you have some very strange ideas about what therapy is. For one, therapy generally involves the consent of the other person. Two, there are no invasive mind drugs that literally allow you to re-write the personality, goals and desires of another person.

It is usually voluntary but often times it is not. For instance in my country (Sweden) if someone who is "insane" commits a crime they can not be sent to prison. Rather they get treatment which serves to restore their "sanity". That is someone tries to change what they are and turn them into something else. When I hear of this it usually concerns a rapist or a murder who they try to get to stop raping and/or murdering and often times it will involve drugs. The process may serve to change their goals (primal pleasure?), desires (young boys?) and personality (violent?). When/if the person is deemed sane they are released and I'm sure most of the people put through this find it preferable to death penalty.

Modifié par Eber, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:23 .


#14
In Exile

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Eber wrote...
It is usually voluntary but often times it is not. For instance in my country (Sweden) if someone who is "insane" commits a crime they can not be sent to prision. Rather they get treatment which serves to restore their "sanity".


Right, it's the same in Canada, give or take.

That is someone tries to change what they are and turn them into something else. When I hear of this it usually concerns a rapist or a murder who they try to get to stop raping and/or murdering and often times it will involve drugs. When/if the person is deemed sane they are released and I'm sure most of the people subjugated to this find it preferable to death penalty.


Rehabilitation in a psychological facility is very complicated. Medication is involved, but there is a complicated and combined effort that includes talk therapy. Regarding murder or rape, specifically, I can't say that I have ever heard of any potential medication for either case (e.g. medication that would manage aggression, and so on). I'm actually going to research this, because I study neuroscience and I've never heard of anything quite like this...

#15
Eber

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In Sweden there was a recent scandal where a man convicted of eight murders withdrew all his confessions. He now claims the drugs and therapy forced upon him after comparativly trivial crimes like child molestation and robbery made him confess things he did not do and is working to overthrow his convictions. It's a scandal not because he says he's innocent (who doesn't?) but because his story has some merit. Anyway he was given lots of benzodiazepines.

Thomas Quick

Modifié par Eber, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:21 .


#16
Skyblade012

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In Exile wrote...

I found the moral dillema of re-writing the geth interesting, but it always made me wonder about the paragon/renegade rationale in that mission. I suppose it was intended as a 'save lives' versus 'kill' choice, but I really don't think the moral abhorence of the mind control choice was investigated.

I just find killing the geth heretics the more humane choice - after all, they choose war, they choose to develop a horrific weapon; this is just reprisal. Mind-controlling them forever seems a far more horrible choice.

As it stands, to me, the re-write choice was more renegede, because it focused on the utility of the geth versus the abhorence of mind-control, whereas the the explode 'em choice at least respect their agency, even as enemies.

I'm curious what others think re: the morality of re-writing the heretics.


If it was mind control, perhaps it would be.  But it isn't.  Legion himself states that the effect of rewriting and having the heretics reintegrate with the geth would be unpredictable.  You aren't controlling them, you are simply guiding them along a new path.  It is the programming equivalent of giving therapy to a diseased mind.  You are shaping them toward a new path, but how they progress along that path is up to them, if they truly are capable of sentience and making their own decisions.

And, if they are just mindless drones, then there is no ethical problem in the first place.

#17
Ramgigon

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 You can't really make an analogy like mind control when it's the Geth we're talking about. As Legion states, you can't apply your morals to them; they think completely differently. The closest comparison you could make is altering somebody's brain to be unable to see the downside to a particular argument and thus take that argument as truth, but... it's a loose comparison at best.
Personally, I always rewrite them just because of the sheer irony of it. No self-determination? Sure, fine by me. ;)

#18
Moiaussi

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Its a tough decision. Personally I still consider killing 'cleaner' than re-programming, although would have ideally prerferred to have gotten a heretic perspective to get a better sense of the extent of programming vs sentience in their choice.

There is also the issue that if they are reintigrated, the 'anti-virus' might not have been sufficient, and there might be negative reprocussions. Alternatively, the Geth may end up feeling remorse as a result and end up more generous towards the Quarians...

Sometimes there is just too little information to form anything other than an arbitrary conclusion. 

#19
Pacifien

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As many times as this particular moral quandry has been brought up in this forum, it still interests me. For instance, why is every comment leaning toward rewrite a renegade response all the way up until you actually make the decision? Nevermind the question about whether you can apply organic thinking to a synthetic issue, the real question might be what makes an action paragon versus renegade?

Most paragon decisions seemed to work on the concept of second chances. Give the Rachni a second chance. Give Shiala a second chance. Even give the Krogan a second chance. In that respect, rewriting the Heretics is about giving them a second chance.

Most renegade decisions are based on not taking chances. Don't waste resources saving the Council, use all of them on Sovereign. Don't waste the opportunity to study the Collector Base, keep it. Don't let Maelon get away with his genophage knowledge, kill him. And don't take the chance that the rewrite can fail in the future, destroy the Heretics.

Majority rules was never going to play a role in Legion's ultimate decision, but the programs working through the Legion platform didn't have time to run through every scenario and come to a consensus. So they made the consensus that Shepard's perspective would speed up the process, I suppose, with Shepard's unique perspective. When Legion tells you there are two more votes for rewrite, we have no idea that was where the wind was blowing for the Geth. For all we know, the majority were in favor of rewrite and that number dwindled as you walked through the station and learned the Heretics were spying on the true Geth. The opposite could have been true as well, with the majority favoring destruction, but the discussion of the loss of the Heretics knowledge and perspective made them think about trying to save them with a rewrite.

Brainwashing isn't a term you can really use for a synthetic mind, not as you would an organic, but it's a close approximation for it. The Geth aren't above using analogies to convey their intent. They will be altering the Heretics' programming. The Heretics had used their own perspective and knowledge to guide their decisions. They will have memory of all such details, but the conclusion will be different. Incongruous. Why did they act in such a manner if they believe as the true Geth do? They will know what they have done, but why they did it will be lost because Legion has forced a conclusion upon them as opposed to their native programming developing it for them.

There is no emotion involved in the decision one way or another. If you rewrite them, there isn't joy in being reunited with their lost programs. If you destroy them, there is no sadness for their demise.

What do you gain by rewriting them? In addition to gaining the programs, the platforms, and their resources, the Geth gain their knowledge. Everything they had done and learned in their separation. They gain a force that had been trained for war, can repurpose this training to fight the Reapers versus Organics.

What do you get by destroying them? The Heretics have likely been tampered with by Sovereign since they joined the Reaper, designed to suit its purposes in a more efficient manner. You reintegrate the Heretics with the Geth, you're reintegrating programs that had direct contact with a Reaper of advanced technological design. That is now in the system. Also, Legion admits there is no guarantee of success with the rewrite. The Heretics might revert to their old conclusion. Worse yet, they may drag more Geth to their cause, now that they share data. Even worse, you don't know when this reversion could happen. At any time.

Giving second chances is also taking risks. You're taking it on the other person's word that they will honor their decision to do better. Such is the gamble with rewrite, but one that pays off if the worst case scenarios do not come to pass.

I wonder, however, how many people would have switched their decisions if the paragon/renegade points had been switched. People want to think of themselves as the ultimate paragon, so they chose rewrite. They justify the paragon nature of the rewrite. Would they justify the decision if a game patch were released that then switched it to a renegade decision?

So yeah, while I'm trying to view this from both sides, you can probably guess that it did lean heavily toward one decision versus the other. I always choose to destroy them. And yes, my Shepard is a Paragon.

#20
Solaris Paradox

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I chose to rewrite them mainly because I'm banking on some big quarian/geth subplot in Mass Effect 3 and I'm banking on there being a way to get the geth and quarians to kiss and make up.



Other than that, I choose not to think about it so thoroughly. The nature of a Paragon/Renegade choice isn't strictly a matter of good or evil--only reason I lean toward Paragon most of the time is roleplay; my character is such a bleeding-heart softie. She was voicing sympathies for the geth ever since her first conversation with Tali on the matter in Mass Effect 1 and even went so far as to encourage that one Admiralty guy in his push for peace, and has been taking chances giving chances for ages. Rewrite is just the natural choice for this particular character.



It's going to be an interesting third game if all of this comes back in an interesting fashion. Wrex in charge of the Krogan, the Rachni Queen's promise to aid in the war, and now the geth Heretics rejoining the original geth collective.



Now what would really be interesting, is if the geth Heretics' decision to remain with the other geth or to break away again would be influenced by Shepard's further actions in ME3. Some way for it all to come out golden if you act in a specific fashion, but a way for it all to bite you in the arse if you act in another.

#21
Eber

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Modifié par Eber, 08 décembre 2012 - 08:48 .


#22
Pacifien

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Solaris Paradox wrote...
I chose to rewrite them mainly because I'm banking on some big quarian/geth subplot in Mass Effect 3 and I'm banking on there being a way to get the geth and quarians to kiss and make up.

I don't think rewrite is a requirement for this particular outcome between the Geth and Quarians. The Heretics are actually supposed to be a very small minority of the larger Geth population. And their destruction probably eases tensions with the Quarians, as their conflicts seem to have been with the Heretics since none of the other Geth aside from Legion had ventured beyond the Veil.

#23
CroGamer002

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Only thing you change on Heretics is that Reapers are bad!

And they are!

#24
upsettingshorts

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Mesina2 wrote...

Only thing you change on Heretics is that Reapers are bad!
And they are!


A telling oversimplification.

You're modifying the underlying thought process that led them to believe that the Reapers were good.  

That change could also effect other decisions.

This is a clumsy metaphor but it would be like going into a human's brain and changing how they recall some event in their childhood, one that later informed on one of their decisions - that you know about - in order to get them to, in the present, change their mind.  But it was part of who that person was and changing it could have unintended consequences.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:58 .


#25
Zan51

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Nah, the change is just a maths permutation, like saying 2 is less than 3, rather than 2 is more than 1....:whistle: