82 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

sylvanaerie wrote...

If you wait till after the Landsmeet that's not the response you get to that question.  He says he's not going to give you up.  Prior to that he really doesn't know because he hasn't considered the implications of what's going on.  And with Alistair sex/love are intertwined enough to where he won't ask you to tent times unless he's at Love. 
Unfortunately with Zevran, you never get told he loves you (Even when you are going up to die on the top of Fort Drakon) nor (from what I understand) does he just spontaneously propose to you, you have to force the issue with the earring?  *on this point I may be wrong since I have never been able to complete the Zevran romance*

Zevran will never say, "I love you," but there's an instance where he may say, "This is why I adore you so."  He also says, in his confession, "Everything I have been taught says what I feel is wrong.  But, I cannot help it."  The VO notes are very clear on this -- he can't say the words, but what he does say is supposed to convey it.

The proposal...  You're not exactly forcing the issue.  It is a proposal.  He asks for a commitment for the future, offers the earring a second time, and you can tell him it sounds like a proposal.  Again, the VO notes to his answer say he's "Hopeful," so it's not just Zevran fans having wishful thinking.  The voice acting is good enough that the meaning gets conveyed clearly.  And if you won't give him a commitment, or worse, tell him a proposal is too much, he breaks up with the warden.  He cannot have casual sex with the warden -- it means too much to him.

Of course, if you break up with Zevran after he's in love, he does call the warden "My Love," but it's part of a whole heartbreaking talk.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying.  In order to get Alistair to stay with you in the mistress ending (5 out of 6 of the origins if you make him king), you DO have to convince him it's ok to have a lover on the side as well as a wife; that he does not have to treat marriage as an exclusive commitment.  It's just not what you'd expect from him when first doing the romance.  

I wasn't trying to put down Alistair.  I do like his romance.  It's just that it completes, usually, in completely unexpected ways, much like Zevran's does.  The reactions after they fall in love are completely different, for both men, than expected.

Both romances are beautifully written.

Edit: Hah, not that anyone will read this edit, but my favorite Zevran "in love" line is this: "Wherever you go, I will gladly follow."  He does tell the warden on quite a few occasional that he loves her/him; he just doesn't use the words, "I love you."

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[CalJones]

Yes I can understand that if a character reminds you of someone you haven't got on well with, it's hard to overcome that.

Fortunately Loghain doesn't really remind me of anyone I know (though he and Nate are definitely of a type that I go for - my boyfriend doesn't look too disimilar bar the eye colour...and then there's his strong dislike of the French, heh heh).

With Alistair, he's very inexperienced in matters of the heart, and has been brought up to be a gentleman. Zevran, on the other hand, has been taught to close his emotions down, so getting him to admit he has feelings is as much of a challenge as it is with Morrigan. They're there, but he's afraid of them. His love is no less real than Alistair's, but it's harder to get him to admit to it. It's very evident if you've done the US and read his epilogue, which is almost as heartbreaking as Leli's.

[tuppence95]

sylvanaerie wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran + HNF.

And is Zevran or Leliana staying with a HN who gets married really so much different than the mistress ending of the Alistair romance?

I think it's an interesting thing, though, the contrasts between Alistair's and Zevran's romances. When they fall in love, the one you'd expect to get on one knee instead gives the, "Wow, you ask hard questions, I don't know where we're going," talk, and the one you'd expect to back off instead may end up proposing. In many cases, Alistair needs to be convinced that sex is not that important in order to stay with the warden (5 of the 6 origins if he becomes king), whereas Zevran ends up with sex and love so completely entwined he can't be with the warden without a commitment for the future.

Neither is better than the other -- just both romances start and end in different places, and both are fantastic stories with all sorts of unexpected twists.

As far as it being about redeeming the bad boy? No, I don't think it's about that at all. It's more, at least for me, as you get to know the character, you realize the incredible strength, wit, intelligence, leadership qualities, and surprising kindness and compassion he has. There's just as much to love with him as there is with any of the other characters. All of them are a bit too good to be true.

If you wait till after the Landsmeet that's not the response you get to that question.  He says he's not going to give you up.  Prior to that he really doesn't know because he hasn't considered the implications of what's going on.  And with Alistair sex/love are intertwined enough to where he won't ask you to tent times unless he's at Love. 
Unfortunately with Zevran, you never get told he loves you (Even when you are going up to die on the top of Fort Drakon) nor (from what I understand) does he just spontaneously propose to you, you have to force the issue with the earring?  *on this point I may be wrong since I have never been able to complete the Zevran romance*

Here's the quote of Alistair's that you are referring to.

[Addai]

Alistair + elf mage, without a doubt.    I love the mage-templar dynamic, and as far as I know a female mage is the only PC he flirts with right from the get-go in Ostagar.  It is bound to be a little bittersweet, at least for me since I hate putting Anora on the throne, but I also don't mind the King Alistair's mistress ending and consider that my canon.

Second would be Alistair + Dalish.  It's got a Romeo and Juliet feel.  Since the Dalish keepers were supposedly Arlathan nobility, a keeper's daughter and a bastard prince have a nice romantic cachet.  And I don't need a simple happy ending, I guess.

I am coming around to really liking the idea of Nathaniel + Dalish female as well.  (edit: PC Dalish, not that harpy Velanna)  So well suited!

Modifié par Addai67, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cousland + Morrigan. Morrigan for obvious reasons. Cousland because it adds imo an interesting twist. Both my character and Morrigan are bound by something they think they must do (King consort / whatever it is she wants to do). It's this obligation that prevented him from searching for her, and her obligation that made her leave. And if the Witch Hunt DLC gives us the option to leave Ferelden with her, I don't know what my Cousland would do. classic obligation vs love scenario. Tragic stuff :'(

[ejoslin]

I know the dialog if you talk to Alistair after the landsmeet -- but that really is aside from the point I was trying to make. Most people do NOT wait for that time. And in order to get that particular talk, you have already had to convince him to take you on as a mistress (or wife, but it's weird when you're his fiance and you get that talk as it implies you're going to be his mistress) -- which does not invalidate what I said at all.

Alistair's romance is beautiful, but I think a big part of the beauty is the heartbreak and/or compromise that comes along with it.

Edit: I was more responding to the scoffing of Zevran's romance, which really is just as beautiful in different ways.  I wasn't trying to say which man loved the warden more -- both are completely in love.  

Here's a difference, though, which to me is telling.  Alistair wants to fall in love -- he wants love and acceptance.  And the way things play out, this can very easily be crushed because of duty (if you don't harden him, and metagaming aside, most women who love him won't harden him the first time around because that line is heartless).  It's a heartbreak.  His honor is such that he puts the greater good above his own feelings.  Gah, so sad.

Zevran, on the other hand, does not want to fall in love, and fights it the entire time.  Yet when he finally falls in love and finally is able to sort out his feelings, the only thing he asks for is that the warden love him in return.  It's a bit more of a fairy-tale, actually.  But quite touching.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:12 .

[CalJones]

Ah KoP - I'm keen to find out what would happen to my Cousland consort as well. He has grown quite fond of Anora.

[adneate]

I liked my Female Mage and Leliana, mages are locked up in a prison their whole lives seperated from the world so when my mage finally gets out I don't think she'd want to then just be a prisoner to the order. So I quite like the paring of the sheltered Mage wanting to see the world they were supposed to be denied and the disillusioned Bard looking for someone to share that world with.

[Sable Phoenix]

Hmm...

A romance between Alistair and a human mage Warden will always hold a special place in my heart, since that was my first playthrough; I didn't harden him because, yes, that single, horrible line to accomplish it is heartless, and so he dumped my poor mageling, and she committed the ultimate sacrifice. That being said, I think my favorite romance is still Leliana's. Purely from the writing side of things, I think Alistair's is a bit better crafted, but based on the strength of the character herself, well... Leliana's is filled with so many contradictions at first, and due to her casual approach to sex in her previous life and her betrayals in love, it's also a very poignant and vulnerable progression of her character. Both she and Alistair fell for my mage, who obviously ended up going with Alistair, but I still felt like a complete heel for having to turn her down. It's a bit of a torment to choose between them on any given playthrough, but two out of three times I'll go with Leli.  A big part of it is her voice actress; she is just utterly irresistible.

Why isn't her romance mentioned on here more, I wonder? It's like this is primarily a Zevran/Alistair comparison thread.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[mdfitz2]

the human noble and leliana cause i wasnt accutally persuing any romance it just happened.



also she is the type of girl i would persue in real life

[DWSmiley]

CalJones wrote...

Zevran's romance, though, is deeper than it first appears. He might have slept with a lot of people but the warden is the first person he has really given his heart to, which is quite touching.

The Warden is actually the second person, which is touching considering how horrifically things ended the first time he let his emotions get the better of him.  I think what adds to the appeal of the romances is they are all flawed characters, though Alistair's flaws are less obvious.  For other three, romance is either scary new ground or the frightening possibility of becoming vulnerable again.

[ejoslin]

DWSmiley wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Zevran's romance, though, is deeper than it first appears. He might have slept with a lot of people but the warden is the first person he has really given his heart to, which is quite touching.

The Warden is actually the second person, which is touching considering how horrifically things ended the first time he let his emotions get the better of him.  I think what adds to the appeal of the romances is they are all flawed characters, though Alistair's flaws are less obvious.  For other three, romance is either scary new ground or the frightening possibility of becoming vulnerable again.

Heh, depends on how you see Zevran and his friendships and relationships before the warden, actually.  In his romance, it's very clear he has never felt anything like what he feels for the warden.

Edit: He actually says he has no understanding of love, no clue what it is, and that's why he was so confused (oooh, paraphrased, but I don't want to spoil his confession here).  He felt something for Rinna, and thought it was love, but then learned something much deeper with the warden.  Just like friendship.  He thought Taliesen was a friend, but then confesses to the warden later, as a friend, that he never knew what friendship was, that he realized he had never had a friend before the warden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:54 .

[sylvanaerie]

ejoslin wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Zevran's romance, though, is deeper than it first appears. He might have slept with a lot of people but the warden is the first person he has really given his heart to, which is quite touching.

The Warden is actually the second person, which is touching considering how horrifically things ended the first time he let his emotions get the better of him.  I think what adds to the appeal of the romances is they are all flawed characters, though Alistair's flaws are less obvious.  For other three, romance is either scary new ground or the frightening possibility of becoming vulnerable again.

Heh, depends on how you see Zevran and his friendships and relationships before the warden, actually.  In his romance, it's very clear he has never felt anything like what he feels for the warden.

Edit: He actually says he has no understanding of love, no clue what it is, and that's why he was so confused (oooh, paraphrased, but I don't want to spoil his confession here).  He felt something for Rinna, and thought it was love, but then learned something much deeper with the warden.  Just like friendship.  He thought Taliesen was a friend, but then confesses to the warden later, as a friend, that he never knew what friendship was, that he realized he had never had a friend before the warden.

I love the 'friendship' speech about Rinna and Taliesin.  It's one of those moments that always chokes me up in the game.
I also love how even if he comes on to you from day one with really obvious flattery/passes, you can nip that in the bud immediately after he is at 26 approval and keep him as a friend the rest of the game. There is no confusion on that part. I don't like his romance per se but I love the character and I love him best as my PC's BFF.  He makes a damn wonderful friend!

[Gilsa]

Aeducan/Alistair
Brosca/Zev (elf mage and Zev are close though, but dwarf wins automatically!)

Edit: Brosca/Morrigan work surprisingly well though. My HMN fizzled out halfway, but I thought Brosca/Morrigan complimented each other very nicely because they were so similiar as outcasts.

Modifié par Gilsa, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Zev has a thing for anything that breathes.....
Fave romanace thus far is Dalish Elf and Lil.

And Leliana, Morrigan, and Alistair all seem to have a Warden fetish as well. As does Teagan. Maybe it's those rumors Morrigan talks about post-tent? 

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Zev has a thing for anything that breathes.....
Fave romanace thus far is Dalish Elf and Lil.

And Leliana, Morrigan, and Alistair all seem to have a Warden fetish as well. As does Teagan. Maybe it's those rumors Morrigan talks about post-tent? 

Teagan.  OMG now THERE was a man I could really fall for

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Zev has a thing for anything that breathes.....
Fave romanace thus far is Dalish Elf and Lil.

And Leliana, Morrigan, and Alistair all seem to have a Warden fetish as well. As does Teagan. Maybe it's those rumors Morrigan talks about post-tent? 

Hah.  Maybe THAT'S why Zevran is faithful to the warden!  No one else can come close

[CalJones]

Teagan never really did it for me. Although my HN ever needs a court jester, he's my number one pick.

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Hah, not that anyone will read this edit, but my favorite Zevran "in love" line is this: "Wherever you go, I will gladly follow."  He does tell the warden on quite a few occasional that he loves her/him; he just doesn't use the words, "I love you."

He also states that we would die for the Warden (although I think you only get that line at "Friendly"). Also, his line about how he'd gladly storm the Black City gates is akin to saying, "I'd die for you".

He may not be saying explicitly "I love you" but he clearly does love the Warden.

As for my favorite romance, I'm really liking my Dalish + Leliana. I like the way my Dalish was actually weary of her at first, being both a human and a chantry devotee, but eventually warmed up to her. Funnily enough, it's the dalish conversation (that makes Leli look so bad) that sort of started it all. It's at that point that my Dalish realized just how much the idea that elves are secondary citizens has been hammered in the heads of everyone in Ferelden, much like how the Dalish hammer the idea that shems are scum on their own.

Also, Leliana genuinely seems to love the Dalish lifestyle, living freely, becoming one with nature. Given the wandering nature of the Dalish, I can picture both of them being very happy traveling together once the blight is over.

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Hah, not that anyone will read this edit, but my favorite Zevran "in love" line is this: "Wherever you go, I will gladly follow."  He does tell the warden on quite a few occasional that he loves her/him; he just doesn't use the words, "I love you."

He also states that we would die for the Warden (although I think you only get that line at "Friendly"). Also, his line about how he'd gladly storm the Black City gates is akin to saying, "I'd die for you".

He may not be saying explicitly "I love you" but he clearly does love the Warden.

As for my favorite romance, I'm really liking my Dalish + Leliana. I like the way my Dalish was actually weary of her at first, being both a human and a chantry devotee, but eventually warmed up to her. Funnily enough, it's the dalish conversation (that makes Leli look so bad) that sort of started it all. It's at that point that my Dalish realized just how much the idea that elves are secondary citizens has been hammered in the heads of everyone in Ferelden, much like how the Dalish hammer the idea that shems are scum on their own.

Also, Leliana genuinely seems to love the Dalish lifestyle, living freely, becoming one with nature. Given the wandering nature of the Dalish, I can picture both of them being very happy traveling together once the blight is over.

You can get that line while "in love" as well -- but it requires you telling him that you consider him a friend (or using the zevran_main.dlg optional fix to my mod ).

Anyway, I've squeed enough Zevran in this thread most likely.

In a game with his dialog fixed, the "dark city" speech is only given if you leave him.  But the proper dialog there is FAR better than that.

I've done Leliana's romance a few times.  Hers also is far better if its fixed.  It really is a shame how many bugs are in all the romances

[Zjarcal]

Romance bugs. They can ruin the mood.

[ninja0809]

I think it's sad that DOA lack dwarf and dwarf romance. They shoulda added at least one more dwarf female companion, and enable romance between our character and Oghren.



One of the reasons why i dont play dwarf is that i want to include romance in my playthrough and i refuse to see a dwarf and human/elf in bed shacking up...just gross

[ejoslin]

ninja0809 wrote...

I think it's sad that DOA lack dwarf and dwarf romance. They shoulda added at least one more dwarf female companion, and enable romance between our character and Oghren.

One of the reasons why i dont play dwarf is that i want to include romance in my playthrough and i refuse to see a dwarf and human/elf in bed shacking up...just gross

Nono, the Zev + dwarf female (probably male as well) sexytime is anything BUT gross.  All the Alistair sexytimes (vanilla game) are the same, but, well, you know, somehow they work ;D  Leliana kneels to kiss the dwarf as well -- it's cute.  Zevran has one kneeling kiss for a dwarf which is also incredibly hot (as far as pixel hotness goes I suppose).

I love Brosca + Zev.  *sigh* Almost as much has HNF + Zev.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[ninja0809]

ejoslin wrote...

ninja0809 wrote...

I think it's sad that DOA lack dwarf and dwarf romance. They shoulda added at least one more dwarf female companion, and enable romance between our character and Oghren.

One of the reasons why i dont play dwarf is that i want to include romance in my playthrough and i refuse to see a dwarf and human/elf in bed shacking up...just gross

Nono, the Zev + dwarf female (probably male as well) sexytime is anything BUT gross.  All the Alistair sexytimes (vanilla game) are the same, but, well, you know, somehow they work ;D  Leliana kneels to kiss the dwarf as well -- it's cute.  Zevran has one kneeling kiss for a dwarf which is also incredibly hot (as far as pixel hotness goes I suppose).

I love Brosca + Zev.  *sigh* Almost as much has HNF + Zev.

OH WOW i never knew that...hmmm maybe i should make my last playthrough a dwarf

[ejoslin]

ninja0809 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

ninja0809 wrote...

I think it's sad that DOA lack dwarf and dwarf romance. They shoulda added at least one more dwarf female companion, and enable romance between our character and Oghren.

One of the reasons why i dont play dwarf is that i want to include romance in my playthrough and i refuse to see a dwarf and human/elf in bed shacking up...just gross

Nono, the Zev + dwarf female (probably male as well) sexytime is anything BUT gross.  All the Alistair sexytimes (vanilla game) are the same, but, well, you know, somehow they work ;D  Leliana kneels to kiss the dwarf as well -- it's cute.  Zevran has one kneeling kiss for a dwarf which is also incredibly hot (as far as pixel hotness goes I suppose).

I love Brosca + Zev.  *sigh* Almost as much has HNF + Zev.

OH WOW i never knew that...hmmm maybe i should make my last playthrough a dwarf

Truly, does Zevran look grossed out here (slightly modded, fixed positioning) or here (a bit more modded, but the beginning of it is in the game, though the extended part is pure Charsen modding goodness)?  Even the heights are good!  Seriously, IRL I'm 5'7 and my husband is 6'1 and I come up on him where a dwarf female comes up on Zev.

Hmmmm, I need to dig up some Leliana stuff now, don't I, to keep it fair!

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 08:08 .