148 réponses à ce sujet

[Azint]

Showing another morally decent Spectre would make for a nice balance to the trend.

[-Severian-]

Except that Spectre's CAN'T be morally decent. I mean, frankly, I found playing a purely Paragon Shepard to be completely impossible, it doesn't even make sense. Spectre's are chosen to get the job done and freed from restrictions to do so, meaning they have to bend the rules and play the dark side a bit or they're just as useful as the police. They're job is to get **** done for the over-arching good that the Council can't directly get involved in. They're not a damn Justicar, they do the dirty work on the right side. As I think Vasir said herself.

[Zan51]

I manage to play my FemSheps with a high majority of Paragon choices. Just sometimes I need to do the other choice, like shoot that lippy Blood Pack Krogan in Mordin's Loyalty quest, lol. And beat up Elias Kelham the guy who hires Kolyat to assassinate the Turian politician... But I usually don't even have one section of Renegade filled by the end.



I find it difficult to play it without making the choices I would make IRL. Some shades of gray, that's me, but predominantly blue.

[Midnight_Thirty]

Saren is the only spectre to "go Rogue"....What is everyone referring to I'm wondering? Just because Tela picked the Shadow Broker's side over you and Liara does not mean she "went rogue". Did anybody pay attention to the dialogue after you take her out?



She explicitly said that she used the Shadow Broker as an informant to do the council's bidding. Is that not what a spectre is supposed to do, or is that classified as "going rogue"?



She was protecting her interests, doing what was necessary to get her job done. It's already been established that the Shadow Broker has no allegiance, he shifts around information to keep the balance of power equal among the races (plus, it's quite a deal profitable), so he obviously is a great asset to anyone trying to keep order.



"Going Rogue" implies that one is out of control, operating upon their own free from establishment, renegade.......she was obviously still underneath the council doing their work, does the end not justify the means?



All Spectres are rogues, but an established rogue. The council sends them out to do the will their bidding, hiding their eyes to methods of these spectres, it's a necessity for them to avoid the "red-tape". Spectres are beings of action without consequence, they put aside their morality for the sake of everyone else's salvation.



There are three definitions of "spectre" that I find applicable here:



1. some object or source of terror or dread

2. a ghost; phantom; apparition

3. a mental image of something unpleasant or menacing



Ghosts that inspire dread, is there any better tool?



Spectres going rogue is not a trend, it's THE ONLY trend. Every spectre is a rogue. An entity all to themselves, above the law. Alone, and willing to sacrifice anything in order to achieve their goal, even if it means abandoning their very soul.

[Nightwriter]

-Severian- wrote...

Except that Spectre's CAN'T be morally decent.

Sure they can.

The Spectre doesn't need to be a saint, they just need to show they have good reasons for doing what they do, something all the previous Spectres have failed to show us. Save for Nihlus, who got 8 minutes of screentime.

[Yakko77]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

...Not rogue, just doing her job as she sees fit. Just like we worked with Cerberus as we saw fit. Is that something that got lost on some people?

*Looks back over the thread*

Damn, apparently so.

It just depends on how you go about working with Cerberus.  My paragon Sheps work hard to put an end to and/or otherwise correct the attrocities of Cerberus while using their resources and then promptly telling them what to go do withselves at the end of the SM.  TIM  may have given me a list of names, pointed me in the right direction a couple times and the Normandy SR2 and its crew might've had Cerberus logos but overall my mission is to stop the Reapers, not advance Cerberus and to do so in as moral and ethical manner as possible.  Spectre tactics (or at least the tactics of the 2 or 3 we've heard anything about)  too often mimic the attrocities that my paragon Shep works so hard to fix and/or prevent (against, even Samara went after Nihlus according to a stroy she tells)..

My Renegade Shep... well, he kinda goes along with Cerberus for the most part but even he blew up the Collector base.

So like I said, as you saw fit...

OK, maybe I'm not understanding you.  Are you justifying Vasir's actions?

If so, I would call blowing up 3 floors to a trade center just to kill one person as a bit more than "as I see fit.." as it's a terrorist act in of itself which therefore makes it unfitting.  Spectre's are supposed to safeguard the galaxy (or at least Council Space and/or interests).  Blowing up dozens if not hundreds of people to get one person on a whim is NOT safeguarding the galaxy, especially when you have another Spectre (Shepard) who is in the process of locating that person and you could've just waited for them to meet at a suitable location and attempted another ambush that lessened if not eliminated the risk of collateral damage.  Vasir, like Saren, didn't even look for another way.  She blew up that trade center without a second thought or hint of remorse.  The acts of these three Spectre's do not FIT what a Spectre is supposed to be (in theory at least) so it cannot be dismissed with a simple they did, ".. as they saw fit.." excuse.

It's all about what you do and how you do it, not about the name of the group you work with.  Working with Cerberus has nothing to do with my actions.  Vasir's, Saren's, even Nihlus's (if Samara is to be believed) actions all crossed a moral and ethical line and they all were part of what is supposed to be a respected and elite organization.  My Pragon Sheps now unwilling works for a "terrorist" group but he/she is more ethical than every stinkin' Spectre we've come across thus far.

[Yakko77]

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

Saren is the only spectre to "go Rogue"....What is everyone referring to I'm wondering? Just because Tela picked the Shadow Broker's side over you and Liara does not mean she "went rogue". Did anybody pay attention to the dialogue after you take her out?

She explicitly said that she used the Shadow Broker as an informant to do the council's bidding. Is that not what a spectre is supposed to do, or is that classified as "going rogue"?

She was protecting her interests, doing what was necessary to get her job done. It's already been established that the Shadow Broker has no allegiance, he shifts around information to keep the balance of power equal among the races (plus, it's quite a deal profitable), so he obviously is a great asset to anyone trying to keep order.

"Going Rogue" implies that one is out of control, operating upon their own free from establishment, renegade.......she was obviously still underneath the council doing their work, does the end not justify the means?

All Spectres are rogues, but an established rogue. The council sends them out to do the will their bidding, hiding their eyes to methods of these spectres, it's a necessity for them to avoid the "red-tape". Spectres are beings of action without consequence, they put aside their morality for the sake of everyone else's salvation.

There are three definitions of "spectre" that I find applicable here:

1. some object or source of terror or dread
2. a ghost; phantom; apparition
3. a mental image of something unpleasant or menacing

Ghosts that inspire dread, is there any better tool?

Spectres going rogue is not a trend, it's THE ONLY trend. Every spectre is a rogue. An entity all to themselves, above the law. Alone, and willing to sacrifice anything in order to achieve their goal, even if it means abandoning their very soul.

Refresh my memory.  Was Vasir aware or unaware of the SB working with the Collectors who are puppets of the Reapers?  Either way, working with this particular SB sort of goes against the Spectre mission to safeguard the galaxy (or Council space and interests at the least).

Also, I  find #2 most fitting for Spectre's in ME.  They're supposed to be unknown and unseen while conducting operations for the better good.  However, Varir, Saren and maybe Nihlus have been shown to take unacceptable shortcuts towards that goal IMO.,

Modifié par Yakko77, 12 septembre 2010 - 12:59 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...


The Spectre doesn't need to be a saint, they just need to show they have good reasons for doing what they do, something all the previous Spectres have failed to show us.

When it is up to each Spectre to decide what those "good reasons" are then you have a problem.

Use common sense. Show the decision saves lives and serves the greater good.

[Yakko77]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...


The Spectre doesn't need to be a saint, they just need to show they have good reasons for doing what they do, something all the previous Spectres have failed to show us.

When it is up to each Spectre to decide what those "good reasons" are then you have a problem.

Use common sense. Show the decision saves lives and serves the greater good.

That's the point some of us are trying to make.  Common sense doesn't need to include needless slaughter.  Spectre's like Saren and Vasir don't even look for another way.  They see a target and they blow up everyone and everything to kill that target.  So what if hundreds or thousands are dead.  Mission accomplished right?  Paragon Shepard by contrast looks for another way and that's a good thing.  It's the way it should be for Spectre's but the ones we've come across don't even try, not even a little, to be moral or ethical.

Modifié par Yakko77, 12 septembre 2010 - 01:13 .

[Heimdall]

I'm hoping for a spectre squadmate in ME3, one who either goes rogue (By going rogue, I mean going against the council) or the Council wises up to the Reaper threat and sends a spectre to help Shepard

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 12 septembre 2010 - 01:22 .

[Heimdall]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Use common sense. Show the decision saves lives and serves the greater good.

I do, but people still think I'm a monster for killing the rachni queen, the Feros colonists, the Terra Nova hostages, and the Council.

I don't think you're a monster...  though I made all the opposite desicions.

[Bookman230]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Use common sense. Show the decision saves lives and serves the greater good.

I do, but people still think I'm a monster for killing the rachni queen, the Feros colonists, the Terra Nova hostages, and the Council.

A common problem with the morality system Why do whatever it takes when the nice(Paragon) thing gets the job done just as well, if not better. The Rachni will help fight the Reapers, the colonists don't seem to have any major problems(though they might later), that one's truely morally ambiguous, and you only get reinstated with the new Council anD Soverign is still destroyed. But, for what it's worth, I see the reasoning behind those actions. Vasir blowing up a building to kill one person when she surely, as a Specter, could simply sneak in, isn't as smart.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Use common sense. Show the decision saves lives and serves the greater good.

I do, but people still think I'm a monster for killing the rachni queen, the Feros colonists, the Terra Nova hostages, and the Council.

Pretty sure people think you're a monster because you mentioned you would help TIM lead a commando team in to an elcor world and kidnap elcor to liquify into an elcor Reaper, Shand.

[Yakko77]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

OK, maybe I'm not understanding you.  Are you justifying Vasir's actions?

If so, I would call blowing up 3 floors to a trade center just to kill one person as a bit more than "as I see fit.." as it's a terrorist act in of itself which therefore makes it [color=rgb(255,0,0)">unfitting. ]FIT[/color] what a Spectre is supposed to be (in theory at least) so it cannot be dismissed with a simple they did, ".. as they saw fit.." excuse.

It's all about what you do and how you do it, not about the name of the group you work with.  Working with Cerberus has nothing to do with my actions.  Vasir's, Saren's, even Nihlus's (if Samara is to be believed) actions all crossed a moral and ethical line and they all were part of what is supposed to be a respected and elite organization.  My Pragon Sheps now unwilling works for a "terrorist" group but he/she is more ethical than every stinkin' Spectre we've come across thus far.

Yeah, you're really not getting me at all.You think her actions are unfitting, but it isn't about you or how you'd do things. She is doing her job as she sees fit, just like you did yours as you saw fit.

In her eyes, bombing a building to take out one person and thus secure galactic peace and stability is what needs to be done.

You work with Cerberus: a bunch of space  ****s who kidnap, poison, test drugs and biotics on kids, etc, all in order to preserve the galaxy.

I  think we're arguing semantics.  Maybe we agree more than we realize or something.  I don't want to argue.  In a way, it's a testament to this great game that we're havng such a pasionate debate and that such moral decisions weigh so heavily on this game vs. the usual point and shoot that most games are.

IMO, I think Vasir's actions run counter to what a Spectre is supposed to be but that's simply MY outlook.

[Yakko77]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Use common sense. Show the decision saves lives and serves the greater good.

I do, but people still think I'm a monster for killing the rachni queen, the Feros colonists, the Terra Nova hostages, and the Council.

I don't think you're a monster...  though I made all the opposite desicions.

OK, one can make a reasonable argument for carrying out most of those decisions but the Ferros colonist massacre is just......

Seriously, there's a way to take them out without killing them but to CHOOSE  to kill them anyways.... just to be sure... is just.... ugh.  Hard to justify that one most of all IMO.

[Heimdall]

Yakko77 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Use common sense. Show the decision saves lives and serves the greater good.

I do, but people still think I'm a monster for killing the rachni queen, the Feros colonists, the Terra Nova hostages, and the Council.

I don't think you're a monster...  though I made all the opposite desicions.

OK, one can make a reasonable argument for carrying out most of those decisions but the Ferros colonist massacre is just......

Seriously, there's a way to take them out without killing them but to CHOOSE  to kill them anyways.... just to be sure... is just.... ugh.  Hard to justify that one most of all IMO.

Well yes, killing the colonists just seems pointlessly brutal.  That particular desicion I've never really seen the practical side off

[Heimdall]

Shandepared wrote...

Bookman230 wrote...



A common problem with the
morality system Why do whatever it takes when the nice(Paragon) thing
gets the job done just as well, if not better.

Yeah, that
does annoy me. I was typing out a long response, making a suggestion
for how I'd fix that. However I realized it would just make the game way
more complicated. It'd be too much work for the developers I suppose.

Limits of the medium.

Ideally there would be a good amount of both Paragon and Renegade desicions that backfire equally

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Use common sense. Show the decision saves lives and serves the greater good.

I do, but people still think I'm a monster for killing the rachni queen, the Feros colonists, the Terra Nova hostages, and the Council.

Pretty sure people think you're a monster because you mentioned you would help TIM lead a commando team in to an elcor world and kidnap elcor to liquify into an elcor Reaper, Shand.

Wait, so long as that Elcor Reaper saves more lives than were lost making it and helps destory the Reaper invasion force, wouldn't that past your good-ness test?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 septembre 2010 - 01:44 .

[sumof all fear]

The thing is that each one has the freedom to carry out their own flavor of justice, and because of that any form of justice that conflicts with their justice (like hunting your friends) becomes instant heracy and they are therefor deemed to be rouge.