148 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Shandepared wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well yes, killing the colonists just seems pointlessly brutal.  That particular desicion I've never really seen the practical side off

I'm sketchy about that one myself. It's not made apparent exactly what Shepard's rational for not using the grenades is. Does he think the grenades will endager his team? Does he think the colonists are being transformed into those creepers? Does he fear the knockout gas won't last long enough?

It's similar to the Morinth/Samara choice. Shepard says, "Morinth will be more useful to me on my current mission" but he doesn't state why.

Well that might be because Samara threatens to kill renegade Shepard doesn't she?  Maybe Shepard thinks Samara's code will get in the way?

Anyway, yes, there is no clear reason why Shepard doesn't use the gas on Feros

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, so long as that Elcor Reaper saves more lives than were lost making it and helps destory the Reaper invasion force, wouldn't that past your good-ness test?

Nah. The "goodness" test has a limit. No rule is absolute. Flexibility is needed.

The more abhorrent the act becomes, the harder it gets to justify it, and the more emphatic and readily apparent the payoff needs to be in order to prove that the act was necessary and the sacrifice was worth it.

[Heimdall]

Shandepared wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well that might be because Samara threatens to kill renegade Shepard doesn't she?

Could be, but if you recruit her late enough you'll never get the chance to hear her threaten you. 

Well that is what happened on my renegade playthrough.  I actually can't figure out why someone would want a black widow intent on seducing them on their team in the first place...

[Reika]

I really don't see how Tela was rogue, especially with her dying comments to Shepard. Did she use good judgment in this? No, not really. Though truth be told I suspect it was the SB's agents who had the bright idea of bombing the building, the Spectre really sounded disgusted at the unprofessionalism displayed.



As for the whole working with Cerberus thing, believe me it burned my butt that I couldn't break ties until the end of ME2.

[GnusmasTHX]

Reika wrote...

I really don't see how Tela was rogue, especially with her dying comments to Shepard. Did she use good judgment in this? No, not really. Though truth be told I suspect it was the SB's agents who had the bright idea of bombing the building, the Spectre really sounded disgusted at the unprofessionalism displayed.

As for the whole working with Cerberus thing, believe me it burned my butt that I couldn't break ties until the end of ME2.

The dialog seems out of place if you play LotSB post-SM... Did she not know that I had basically used TIM as an asset and told him to **** off when I was done with the Collector's?

[FouCapitan]

Can nobody accept the likely possibility that she used the Shadow Broker as an informant for her missions as a spectre, but in doing so owed favors to him, which when payed off reflected the council's wishes in no way, shape, or form, and that assassinating Liara was following through with one of these favors?



I really doubt the council wants their agents working FOR the Shadow Broker as opposed to just using the information to get their jobs done.

[GnusmasTHX]

FouCapitan wrote...

Can nobody accept the likely possibility that she used the Shadow Broker as an informant for her missions as a spectre, but in doing so owed favors to him, which when payed off reflected the council's wishes in no way, shape, or form, and that assassinating Liara was following through with one of these favors?

I really doubt the council wants their agents working FOR the Shadow Broker as opposed to just using the information to get their jobs done.

The SB could very well ask favors from Tela, but if she was still devoted to the Council like she says, she wouldn't do anything against them. Logically it'd be in the SB best interest to assign Tela non-Council-sensitive missions so he could keep a valuable asset, instead of pitting her against ideals and possibly making another powerful enemy.

[Zaxares]

I don't think that Vasir had necessarily gone rogue. Like it or not, the Shadow Broker IS an important ally to have on your side since information can mean the difference between stopping something like the terrorist attack on Terra Nova or, to use a real world example, 9/11. Who's to say that she might not have considered the Shadow Broker a personal friend and wanted to do him a few favours from time to time? I mean, look at Shepard! Helping someone rescue their sister, investigate their long-lost father, blow up some abandoned base on Pragia, kill a thresher maw... Are any of these things really helpful to preserving galactic peace and stability? The only one I think is really worthy of a Spectre's time, especially considering they're trying to stop the Collectors, is Mordin's and Legion's loyalty missions.



I personally don't condone Vasir's actions, but I acknowledge that they were within her rights as a Spectre to carry out (like the way Saren blew up that refinery with hundreds of innocent workers inside). Her comments to you about how she and Shepard are really no different, being willing to ally with a lesser evil for the greater good, really got to me too. Vasir and Shepard just happened to be similar people on opposite sides of a conflict.



What I'm mostly curious to know about is whether there will be any recriminations from the Council for killing a Spectre. Vasir may have been a ruthless, Renegade Spectre, but she's still performed several missions for the Council and was, by all accounts, doing her job well.

[FouCapitan]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

FouCapitan wrote...

Can nobody accept the likely possibility that she used the Shadow Broker as an informant for her missions as a spectre, but in doing so owed favors to him, which when payed off reflected the council's wishes in no way, shape, or form, and that assassinating Liara was following through with one of these favors?

I really doubt the council wants their agents working FOR the Shadow Broker as opposed to just using the information to get their jobs done.

The SB could very well ask favors from Tela, but if she was still devoted to the Council like she says, she wouldn't do anything against them. Logically it'd be in the SB best interest to assign Tela non-Council-sensitive missions so he could keep a valuable asset, instead of pitting her against ideals and possibly making another powerful enemy.

So saying she's gone rogue may be pushing the term, but to say she's skirting the boundaries of her authority seems accurate.

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

Rogue for a SPECTRE is going against the council and galactic stability. She was doing neither.

[Dave of Canada]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The dialog seems out of place if you play LotSB post-SM... Did she not know that I had basically used TIM as an asset and told him to **** off when I was done with the Collector's?

It's not exactly common knowledge.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, so long as that Elcor Reaper saves more lives than were lost making it and helps destory the Reaper invasion force, wouldn't that past your good-ness test?

Nah. The "goodness" test has a limit. No rule is absolute. Flexibility is needed.

The more abhorrent the act becomes, the harder it gets to justify it, and the more emphatic and readily apparent the payoff needs to be in order to prove that the act was necessary and the sacrifice was worth it.

See, now you're going all subjective and ****.  Most people, after all, would agree emphathetically and readily that 100% genocide is far worse than 'just' 50% genocide, and so not even 1% to ensure it was 50% and not 100% was worth it.

[GnusmasTHX]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The dialog seems out of place if you play LotSB post-SM... Did she not know that I had basically used TIM as an asset and told him to **** off when I was done with the Collector's?

It's not exactly common knowledge.

Maybe not, but you'd think she'd get an update that I at least already severed ties with Cerberus. Though from my pov it's already been a while since the SM.

[BurningArmor]

I do remember Tela Vasir saying that she had taken the job from her Shadow Broker contact, and that she had no problem making people disappear to protect the Shadow Broker as she has always gotten good info from the Shadow Broker.  This had nothing to do with the Council making a decision.

I do not think Vasir planned to go rogue.  I do think she made several mistakes.  This job was extremely botched.

Mistake 1:  When Vasir attempted to assasinate Liara, she missed.  Liara evaded Vasir for 4 minutes while she left a message for Shepard.  Then Liara was able to double back to put eyes on Vasir.

Mistake 2:  When Shepard arrived on scene Vasir merely sought more information about where to find Liara.  She never asked Shepard why he was operating in the area even though she clearly knew of Shepard.  In fact, she misled Shepard into thinking she was there to investigate the murder attempt on Liara.

Mistake 3: Contacted the Shadow Broker Troops, letting them know the intended targets will be at the Drakon Office Building.  The SB Troopes blow up 3 floors and still miss both Secat and Liara.  Vasir later complains about the sloppiness of the work.

Mistake 4: Liara shows up at Drakon and identifies Vasir as the would-be assassin.  Vasir panics, diving through a window to escape using biotics to slow her fall.  Shepard catches Vasir on the way through the window but looses his grip about half way down.  Shepard bounces nicely off the pavement.

Mistake 5:  Liara stays on her so Vasir tries to escape in a sky car.  Piloting wrecklessly, Vasir causes a lot of sky vehicles to crash.  In addition, Vasir drops several military grade mines into traffic lanes before Shepard catches her and causes Vasir to hit an oncoming skycar nose on.  Vasir is injured in the strike, and crashes on the roof of the Azure Building.  

Mistake 6: As Vasir panics further, she becomes more dependant on the SB Troops.  The SB Troops are no match and only succeed in creating more death and mayhem by shooting up the town.

Mistake 7: Vasir grabs a hostage.  Not exactly what the council envisioned as the actions of a Spectre.

Mistake 8: Fighting the final battle injured.  Did Vasir not believe in the use of medigel?  If she was fighting that way hurt, think of what she would have been like healthy. Omg...

Mistake 9: Vasir is more concerned about Shepard the Cerberus agent judging her than getting any help Shepard  might offer. 



   

[Homebound]

Nihlus wasnt squeeky clean. Talk to Samara. She tells you how Nihlus took an entire village hostage so he could escape the Justicar.

[casedawgz]

Just_mike wrote...

Nihlus wasnt squeeky clean. Talk to Samara. She tells you how Nihlus took an entire village hostage so he could escape the Justicar.

Think you might be mixing up your stories. Morinth definitely did that, but I believe Samara says the Nihlus merely created a situation where going after him would lead to the deaths of innocents. It was pretty vague.

[casedawgz]

Midnight_Thirty wrote...


"Going Rogue" implies that one is out of control.

 

God forgive me.

[MassEffect762]

Garrus and Anderson are as close as we've been to having a "normal" spectre.



Bioware won't make Shepard look less interesting/skilled/competent.

[Midnight_Thirty]

casedawgz wrote...

Midnight_Thirty wrote...


"Going Rogue" implies that one is out of control.

 

God forgive me.

I really like that you picked up on this reference....I was hoping as much

[Midnight_Thirty]

Zaxares wrote...

What I'm mostly curious to know about is whether there will be any recriminations from the Council for killing a Spectre. Vasir may have been a ruthless, Renegade Spectre, but she's still performed several missions for the Council and was, by all accounts, doing her job well.

YES!! I'm so glad you brought this up, obviously killing an operative spectre is going to once again paint you in a bad light, will it ever get better for Shepard, or will he have to remain "rogue" (oh no, what a horrible overdone theme....*sarcasm*). Maybe more DLC will clear up the resentment that the rest of the galaxy seems to have accumulated for Shepard.....otherwise we might be fighting EVERYONE in ME3

[Bruddajakka]

If any thing they'll hush it up. And if need be Shepard has access to all of the old Shadow Brokers files on Vasir, and can prove she was acting under his orders when she attacked Shepard, and the trade center.

[CroGamer002]

I never liked Specters but I do wish to see good Specter besides my Engineer Tom Shepard( other 5 including my canon aren't really "goodies").

[CroGamer002]

BurningArmor wrote...

I do remember Tela Vasir saying that she had taken the job from her Shadow Broker contact, and that she had no problem making people disappear to protect the Shadow Broker as she has always gotten good info from the Shadow Broker.  This had nothing to do with the Council making a decision.

I do not think Vasir planned to go rogue.  I do think she made several mistakes.  This job was extremely botched.


Mistake 2:  When Shepard arrived on scene Vasir merely sought more information about where to find Liara.  She never asked Shepard why he was operating in the area even though she clearly knew of Shepard.  In fact, she misled Shepard into thinking she was there to investigate the murder attempt on Liara.

Mistake 3: Contacted the Shadow Broker Troops, letting them know the intended targets will be at the Drakon Office Building.  The SB Troopes blow up 3 floors and still miss both Secat and Liara.  Vasir later complains about the sloppiness of the work.

Mistake 7: Vasir grabs a hostage.  Not exactly what the council envisioned as the actions of a Spectre.

Mistake 8: Fighting the final battle injured.  Did Vasir not believe in the use of medigel?  If she was fighting that way hurt, think of what she would have been like healthy. Omg...

Mistake 9: Vasir is more concerned about Shepard the Cerberus agent judging her than getting any help Shepard  might offer.


   

2. and 3. Why are those mistake?

7. Even Nihlus did that too. Talk to Samara.

8. In Mass Effect universe only Shepard has Medigel.

9. Because she is bigger b*tch then Miranda( like her BTW) and doesn't want to have help from Shepard that she claim he/she is hypocrite.



But I do agree she didn't went rogue nor did she plan. She is like TIM only instead of humanity it's Citadel and she has government approval.

Modifié par Mesina2, 12 septembre 2010 - 01:32 .

[MerrickShep]

It's not so much the Spectres go rouge it's just that they always seem to want to kill Shepard...