148 réponses à ce sujet

[McAllyster]

When Saren was a Spectre he did the same thing - extreme actions which costs many innocent lives. You can read in the Revelation novel (Anderson refers this story in ME1). And the Council didn't care about the innocent lives - they didn't punish Saren at this time. What Vasir says is true - Council created Spectres and they do not want to watch their actions closely.

[Narosian]

All spectres are working for shady organizations or get their information from shady sources. Like it was pointed out in the first game, its expected of spectres that they accomplish their missions in whatever means they can even if it means sacrificing innocents to do it. The spectres are pretty much the same as far i'm concerned. The council is just a bunch of ignorant hypocrites for condemning shepherd working with Cerberus.

[BurningArmor]

Mesina2 wrote...

BurningArmor wrote...

I do remember Tela Vasir saying that she had taken the job from her Shadow Broker contact, and that she had no problem making people disappear to protect the Shadow Broker as she has always gotten good info from the Shadow Broker.  This had nothing to do with the Council making a decision.

I do not think Vasir planned to go rogue.  I do think she made several mistakes.  This job was extremely botched.


Mistake 2:  When Shepard arrived on scene Vasir merely sought more information about where to find Liara.  She never asked Shepard why he was operating in the area even though she clearly knew of Shepard.  In fact, she misled Shepard into thinking she was there to investigate the murder attempt on Liara.

Mistake 3: Contacted the Shadow Broker Troops, letting them know the intended targets will be at the Drakon Office Building.  The SB Troopes blow up 3 floors and still miss both Secat and Liara.  Vasir later complains about the sloppiness of the work.

Mistake 7: Vasir grabs a hostage.  Not exactly what the council envisioned as the actions of a Spectre.

Mistake 8: Fighting the final battle injured.  Did Vasir not believe in the use of medigel?  If she was fighting that way hurt, think of what she would have been like healthy. Omg...

Mistake 9: Vasir is more concerned about Shepard the Cerberus agent judging her than getting any help Shepard  might offer.


   

2. and 3. Why are those mistake?

7. Even Nihlus did that too. Talk to Samara.

8. In Mass Effect universe only Shepard has Medigel.

9. Because she is bigger b*tch then Miranda( like her BTW) and doesn't want to have help from Shepard that she claim he/she is hypocrite.



But I do agree she didn't went rogue nor did she plan. She is like TIM only instead of humanity it's Citadel and she has government approval.

Number 2 was mistake because it was this failure to communicate intensions and reasons between Spectres (or Spectre and Former Spectre) that lead to the fighting.  Shepard was never given a chance to voice the threat the Shadow Broker represented working for the Collectors.  Had they talked like responsible adults, Lair of the Shadow Broker might have taken a very different path.  As is, the galaxy is down one of its defenders.

Number 3 was mistake because it was an early sign that she was depending on Shadow Broker's Troops too much to get the job done.  Granted that had it worked, it would have given Vasir an alabi.  She was with Shepard.  Still, how often do minions get it right?  Spectres are supposed to be self reliant.

Number 7 - I fully agree.  It is something that has been done by Spectres more than once.  In fact I have heard Samara's story.  My point was that Spectres were originally envisioned to be defenders of the realm.  Grabbing hostages just make future negotiations with these people more difficult for the Council.  Grabbing a hostage is more of a self-interest kind of thing.  The mistake of grabbing a hostage here lay in that Vasir could have grabbed another sky car or better yet a cab to get her to medical help while Shepard was busy with the Shadow Broker Troops.
This would have kept her around to fight another day.

Number 8 - If true, that explains the real reason why the Sirta Foundation (the makers of Medigel) is going out of business in less than a year...

Number 9 - That may be true as well, but it is still a mistake to die because of emotions getting in the way.
 

Modifié par BurningArmor, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[prizm123]

vasir was not a rogue spectre, her only crime was in going after Shepard's friend and pissing Shepard off

[JaegerBane]

McAllyster wrote...

When Saren was a Spectre he did the same thing - extreme actions which costs many innocent lives. You can read in the Revelation novel (Anderson refers this story in ME1). And the Council didn't care about the innocent lives - they didn't punish Saren at this time. What Vasir says is true - Council created Spectres and they do not want to watch their actions closely.

The problem isn't so much the lack of constraints on Spectres - the problem is that the council often doesn't really take into account the actual spectre candidate's state of mind when making them one. Saren wasn't fit for the responsibilities of being a spectre - the guy was a raving racist who harboured crazy plans of turian domination which was easily taken advantage of by Sov. You can't have someone like that running around with diplomatic immunity and a license to kill and expect things to work.

Same goes for Vasir. She wasn't the same as Saren but she suffered from a rather grievous inability to think through what she was doing. She was protecting the Shadow Broker 'because he gave good intel' while apparently not realising that intel could be bought by whoever had the credits to pay, regardless whether that person meant harm to galactic stability - the very stability she was supposed to protect. Indeed, that's what happend in the case of the Collectors. She was an utter fool and she paid for it.

[upsettingshorts]

I don't think Vasir is the problem, she's just a symptom of the fact the Council makes the Spectres pay for their own equipment and support.

It's no wonder Spectres can end up in the pockets of those they have to rely on. Like the Shadow Broker... or Cerberus...

Granted I realize that's a conceit for gameplay purposes, but it's still part of Mass Effect canon.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[JaegerBane]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't think Vasir is the problem, she's just a symptom of the fact the Council makes the Spectres pay for their own equipment and support.

It's no wonder Spectres can end up in the pockets of those they have to rely on. Like the Shadow Broker... or Cerberus...

Granted I realize that's a conceit for gameplay purposes, but it's still part of Mass Effect canon.  

I think that's been a bit overstated. It's not like any Spectre ends up being destitute as a result of their job. Hell, Vasir wasn't protecting the Shadow Broker for cash, she was doing it because she presumably can't do her job by herself and needs the SB's info to back up her non-existent investigative skills.

[OBakaSama]

But it's true! The Council gives you access to fabulous equipment which you have to pay for yourself! And you get those credits by, you know, opening peoples' safes, hacking bank terminals, etc.

Seriously though, it seems while the Council grants Spectre status to certain individuals it would seem to be that individual's government which funds them. Remember when Shepard was made a Spectre? It was the Alliance which had to give them a ship to use, and crew. Can you imagine that a Spectre has to buy their own ship? (Wouldn't it be interesting to see a Spectre having to hitch-hike if their government was poor....)

That would suggest that when the Council grants Spectre status upon someone, that Spectre can also have their own team. Garrus said, I think, he'd always wanted to work with a Spectre because they aren't bound by rules; and working with a Spectre would seem to suggest that as long as said Spectre approves the actions, their team is also granted the same diplomatic immunity. Nihlus may have been different as he didn't seem to have a team. Perhaps it depends on the sort of work the individual Spectre is supposed to undertake.

The main problem we have with Spectres is that the Council gives certain orders, and the Spectres go to achieve their goal. When Shepard was sent to hunt Saren he was authorised to use any means necessary. It might be conceivable that not all missions sanctioned by the Council would have that particular permission granted, but generally the thought seems to be by any means necessary.

With Vasir her motivations are sort of clear. She was protecting a source; a source which provided her with intel she used to serve the Council. Shepard sort of got dragged into the situation, but her target was Liara. From ME1, we learn that the intel the Shadow Broker sells means that the balance of power actually stays the same according to Barla Von: no matter how much you buy, you never win; but you still play the game.

Given that the official Council response to the Reaper threat is the "Ah...yes 'Reapers'......we have dismissed that claim" stance, it might not be too far a stretch to think that other Spectres would have ignored the Reaper threat as well. (Quite frankly, very few people in the ME universe even believe they exist, and most of those who seem to believe are human.) Taking the Reapers out of consideration, then it's just the fact that the Shadow Broker was working with the Collectors. Prior to what happens in ME2, we learn that the Collectors do travel to the Terminus systems for certain trade of physical specimens. No-one knew they were working for the Reapers. They may be shady in and of themselves, but there's probably little reason for Vasir to know that the Shadow Broker was working with the Collectors, and even less as to what his motivations were. I don't think she was aware of that. Much like a client of the Shadow Broker doesn't know who the other clients are. (Client confidentiality and all that.)

As such, I don't think that Vasir could be blamed for not knowing the Shadow Broker's motives, plus the possible knowledge she has of the Reapers. What could be deemed odd for her as a Spectre was she obviously undertaking a job for someone other than the Council, but even this is by all means 'bad' as Shepard undertakes missions for the Alliance in ME1 and Cerberus in ME2. It would depend on the Council's stance on the Shadow Broker. If they are neutral, then it might not be forbidden for Vasir, as a Spectre, to work for the Shadow Broker on that occasion (this is very limited though). After all, if the Council lived, they do chew Shepard out for working with an enemy of the Council, i.e., Cerberus, but willing to accept it for the time being as long as Shepard sticks to the Terminus systems. Unless we know what the Council's stance is on the Shadow Broker, I don't think Vasir can be condemned for working for him.

Right, waffled enough to have poured syrup onto them. Buggering off now.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

It certainly provides a new perspective on how the Council regards Shepard.  Maybe that's how they treat all Spectres.  Loudly denounce their methods and intentions, while turning a blind eye to everything they do because it serves a greater good, just like Vasir said.

Shepard has now wiped out the Collectors, foiled the Reapers' plans twice, crippled the heretic Geth and decimated the three major mercenary companies in the Terminus system.  He's started one-man wars on the Citadel, Illium, Tuchanka and Omega, and the Council has plausible deniability for all of it.

[jojon2se]

My Shepard couldn't slip Vasir some medigel and give her a second chance, but if given the opportunity, now that the shadowbroker network is at our disposal, I am keen on the idea of investing in building a myth around her. She is gone and had a decidedly renegade stroke to her, but that's not what I'd have people at large think: my deception would have her still out there, now undercover and occasionally a rumor slips of one phoney paladin-esque deed, or other. It's a way of being remembered that she may not deserve, but which is argueably more "positive" than the truth.

The truth would be a valueable and sober, albeit demoralizing, lesson about about the corruptibility of people, the myth; an example people might aspire to.

The good old morality question - can a lie ever a be a better option? :7

[Yeti13]

I still say that most Specters are good people, or at the very least good at what they do. Lets say the alliance estimates are correct and their are under 50 so it's plausible to think that 30 to 40 is around their true numbers. We have known four: 1: Niuhls; A Turian who is good at his job but knows that he can push the boundaries when need be (Samara fought him after he killed an innocent [She thinks he was an innocent, it's entirely plausible that they weren't but do to the strict nature of the Justicar code its easy to see why someone killing someone else looks evil no matter what the prior reason] Nihuls would have lost that battle but used an innocent as a distraction to get Samara off his back{This seems like a dick move to me but maybe it was maybe it wasn't} ) People often blame him for reacting to Sarren like that, well seeing as Sarren is a hero to all specters and always gets the job done, you cant blame Nihuls for letting his guard down.



2: Sarren: Lost his brother in the Relay 314 incident (first contact war), he lost it after that, you knew what happened. Using Dr. Qains research he discovered the existence of Sovereign and used the Batarains who found it. Eventually his every action was controlled by Sovereign (evidence of this force used on Grayson), If you were a full paragon or renegade you were able to break thru to him and make him feel real regret for his decisions ala suicide



3.: Vasir: She makes a completely valid point, she works with someone who politicians rely on for information and I'm sure even the council has used his network of info at one time or another. Was he a dick, yes but a dick who cares not for power or prestige, only for his pocketbook. You on the other hand work for a agency that has declared itself an enemy of the council (even though the council owes its life to them) and therefore it's members are traitors to the alliance and council space. They have made agendas that either completely obliterate or dominate the other species. You allying with them is almost saying that you are an enemy of the leaders of the Galaxy, are you any better than her?



4. Yourself Shepard: No comment, Shepard is the player so you can make your own decisions on how you feel about your actions as a Specter



So thats four out of a possible 49, Can we judge the whole group based on these actions no! thats a unsound categorical deductive argument!

[Whailor]

Vasir wasn't "rogue", she just did some side jobs for SB in order to use SB's information to advance her own work/career, so to say. So SB has someone who's becoming a thorn in the side - Vasir makes that person disappear. In turn SB gives some hints to Vasir in line of her own interests and she acts based on that data - saves the day. Council is happy, she gets fat bonuses, all think she's a hero. And so on. So no, she's not "gone rogue", but she's clearly not a "good Spectre" either, so to say. To her the end justifies the means and if it means blowing up some bunch of people in order to later save thousands, she does it. She made a move against Liara - and in the end against Shepard - since they were getting close to SB and that didn't fit with her plans. I'm pretty sure she had no need to worry that SB would have sold her out as SB would most likely not done it, but she also knew of Shepard and knew that he may reach SB and thus he's one of the "thorns" which needs to be removed.



I don't think that she even wanted really to fight or kill Shepard as such, she hoped to deal with Liara's sources and her as well and thus close the case, so to say, but to her dismay Shepard got involved a bit too much and Liara apparently was more resourceful then she had assumed. So that whole thing on Illium was simply a situation gone bad and getting out of her hand way worse and way faster then she thought or had hoped. In the end she had no choice but to try her best to kill Shepard and Liara and all, because they were now a threat to her as well - if they survive, they'll blow her cover and report her to Council and that may very well mean an end to her Specte career and, as these things are usually done - life as well, as someone, another Spectre most likely, would be sent after her.



But definitely Council was not working against Shepard or sent her to deal with Shepard. Council was most likely totally unaware of the events transpiring on Illium. Maybe the Council may have wondered now and then as to from where does Vasir get her information and what may be the cost of it, but as she got her work done and there were no charges filed against her, they just didn't care about it. Events on Illium were simply a situation getting out of control of Vasir and turning against her and threatening her directly, in the end.

[DukeOfNukes]

Saren is the only Spectre that went rogue. Vasir did nothing AGAINST the council or the species...and never had to go against their wishes or best interests. In fact, even Anderson called the Shadow broker a "necessary evil of galactic politics."



Shepard didn't really go rogue either. I suppose it depends on a player to player basis, but you never align yourself against the council species. While you may not appreciate the Council itself, you never make any attempt to go to war with its member species.

[Gabey5]

to the people saying that vasir didn't go rouge... she did.. im pretty sure there are rules against trying to kill another spectre (shepard)

[Dean_the_Young]

She wasn't out to kill Shepard. She was out to kill Liara. Shepard really just got himselve involved on Liara's behalf.

[Bookman230]

I think the true meaning here is that we want a Spectre ally for once.

[OBakaSama]

That may well be true. Well...we sort of had an ally in Nihlus, but to further pin down the issue, perhaps another Spectre as squadmate?

As for Vasir going rogue...personally I'm of the opinion she didn't go rogue. She explains to Shepard that she wasn't going against the Council. In this respect, Shepard's ties to Cerberus (necessary evil or no depending how you play your game) they are recognised as an enemy of the Council (again, if you saved them in ME1). From the Council's perspective, Shepard is more rogue than Vasir. Shepard's reinstated Spectre status was a sign of good faith after all.

What is an interesting point concerning Vasir going up against Shepard is this: what if two Spectres were sent on separate missions. Through some coincidence they meet trying to complete their mission, but their respective goals exclude one another? Hm....

[Nightwriter]

Gabey5 wrote...

to the people saying that vasir didn't go rouge... she did.. im pretty sure there are rules against trying to kill another spectre (shepard)

Ooh, an opportunity for me to have a pity party!

But they don't care about me anymore, you see. The Council. I'm a laughingstock. A joke of a Spectre. They cast me out and patronized me and now I'm really not even one of them anymore, they'd probably laugh if someone asked them to investigate my death like it was some great galactic-level crime.

They'd be all, "Ah yes, 'Shepard'."

[MrFob]

Spectre squadmate? Hm, not sure about that. The way they are described, they don't seem like the type that teams up long term ("I move faster on my own" ). Also since there are probably less than a hundred in the whole galaxy, it seems that it is better to distribute them. A temporary or reoccurring NPC spectre ally would be better IMO.



As for Vasir, I wouldn't have said she went rouge either. It is as executor Pallin puts it in ME1. Spectres are more like the underhanded side of the council, they do whatever it takes. Maybe Vasir took the job because she would have gotten some extremely valuable piece of intel in return, who knows. The spectres have the problem that Pallin describes, they are not accountable and the potential for abuse of power is always there.

On the other hand, at least from the impression we get in revelation, the ME galaxy is not as well infrastructured as say Europe is today. There are many rather isolated regions, communication is not cheaply and readily available for everyone and many systems and colonies are rather isolated by long distances and travel times (even in council space, not to mention the outer reaches like the abyss or the terminus). That makes law enforcement and security issues much more difficult to deal with, requiring different standards. Therefore I find it difficult to judge the system they have.

[OBakaSama]

To clarify on my remark on a Spectre squadmate, as I was unclear, I was suggesting that perhaps this is what people wanted, and not just as an ally. I have no personal preference.



Anyway....What was odd about them being on Illium, and correct if I'm wrong because I am unsure, is that Shepard is working primarily in the Terminus systems, right? Is Illium in the Terminus? Because if it is, what gave Vasir the right to dismiss the two police officers? Even if she is a Spectre, that authority would only hold in Council space wouldn't it?



And yeah, Pallin in ME1. I only came across that speech the other day.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vasir, by her own admission, wasn't acting in exchange for information: she was acting as a favor to a long established partner.

[MrFob]

OBakaSama wrote...

To clarify on my remark on a Spectre squadmate, as I was unclear, I was suggesting that perhaps this is what people wanted, and not just as an ally. I have no personal preference.

Yeah, just my preference, too. maybe Shep is the most badass spectre in the galaxy and can have others as subordinates. Just saying that for me, it would somwhat decrease the coolness of the spectres.

Anyway....What was odd about them being on Illium, and correct if I'm wrong because I am unsure, is that Shepard is working primarily in the Terminus systems, right? Is Illium in the Terminus? Because if it is, what gave Vasir the right to dismiss the two police officers? Even if she is a Spectre, that authority would only hold in Council space wouldn't it?

AFAIK, Illium is on the verge of the terminus, it's like a gateway planet (which seems to give it a somewhat unique status). It is not asari space but still council space. So my guess would be, while the council is cutting Illium a lot of slack (red sand, indentured service, etc.) they still have authority. Maybe comparable to Novaria in the traverse.

And yeah, Pallin in ME1. I only came across that speech the other day.

Me too, just yesterday, which is why I remembered it, brought it up .

[RusZap]

I think it is an attempt at Bioware describing at how concept of absolute authority with no accountability can be extremely dangerous concept as it relates to morality.



Is blowing up a building with a few hundred civilians to kill a few terrorists inside okay if it saves millions?



Vasir eludes this on her "deathbed". The council don't want to know their actions because they don't want the blood on their hands so to speak.



Think about how many times Shepard is given things that are morally ambigous in both games: Rachni, the Council, Collector Base, Possible data on Genophage cure...



The line between hero and villian can be a thin line and this is one of them. In Vasir's mind she wasn't rouge. The Shadow Broker gives her the information that saves thousands in her missions so to take out one person here and there it is okay for the greater good.



As Obi Wan would say: "you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

[AresXX7]

McAllyster wrote...

When Saren was a Spectre he did the same thing - extreme actions which costs many innocent lives. You can read in the Revelation novel (Anderson refers this story in ME1). And the Council didn't care about the innocent lives - they didn't punish Saren at this time. What Vasir says is true - Council created Spectres and they do not want to watch their actions closely.

That's not entirely accurate, Saren got off by placing the blame on Anderson, which cost him his candidacy for the Spectres. So I would say the Council did care.

Back to the subject at hand.
I wouldn't say Vasir went rogue either. I will say she acted poorly in not  investigating any further into why Liara was after the SB in the first place. I can't use Shep as a deciding factor since apparently no one, outside of TIM. Miri, Jacob & Shep, knows what his/her connections are with Cerberus. And we don't know of Liara's decision to replace the SB until it's all said & done either. But we do know it was about finding Feron, who should have been of no concern to Vasir in the first place, therefore nothing of importance for her was at stake. All she did was allow herself to become a pawn for the SB, nothing more.

I don't think all Spectres should have a faint halo hovering above their heads, but it still would be nice to come across some who a.) doesn't want to put a bullet in Shep's head b.) is willing to at least listen to what s/he has to say about the Reaper threat c.) will first give Shep a chance to explain what his/her connections with Cerberus are d.) is willing to offer any assistance should option "b" prove to be true.

[Midnight_Thirty]

Gabey5 wrote...

to the people saying that vasir didn't go rouge... she did.. im pretty sure there are rules against trying to kill another spectre (shepard)

Think about what you are saying here. When did Vasir attack Shepard? Not until the very end when Shepard chased her down and cornered her. Shepard made the first move to kill a Spectre. Defending yourself and your interests is hardly going rogue.

If anyone has gone rogue, it's Shepard.