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[Pritos]

finnugold wrote...

Merlin Dawnweaver wrote...

Pritos wrote...

Merlin Dawnweaver wrote...

Since there is no universal system of morality in Theldas, could we argue that there is no OOC/objective evil in Theldas ? In that case, there is simply no point arguing if a character was evil.
To illustrate the point: there is no clear system of morality for microbes. Therefore we couldn't say certain species of fungus was evil was evil.

Is it even possible to classify an unthinking being as good or evil like if it had a choice on his actions?

My point exactly. To classify something, there must exist a system of measurement. Such a system does not exist in Theldas, therefore Characters in DA cannot be any more good or evil then bags of potatoes.

There's no game mechanic for measuring good or evil. That doesn't mean Thedas has standards of "good" and "evil"...
In fact, people in DAO frequently refer to "evil" so I think your point is moot.
And regardless, we're attempting to judge Flemeth by OUR standards of good and evil.

Mine standards of good and evil can very well be different than yours. For an example, I believe "The survival of the fittest" is an evil way of thinking, however it makes sense and in many situations I may support it.

Modifié par Pritos, 05 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Irenie]

I like her, she's a great character. I love the mystery and the madness of her! The very fact that no one can agree where to place her; whether she's benevolent with a short fuse or total and utter evil, shows she's playing her part well.
I'm not sure her plan is as simple as the fundamental 'three Ds' of evil (death, doom and despair). But, having said that, Morrigan went on about how important power is, maybe she picked that up from Flemeth. Power can mean different things to different people though. To some it could be ruling the world and having lives in your hands, to others it could be having the means to rule the world, or it could mean being able to live as you want without worrying. I can't wait to find out more about her!

[finnugold]

Merlin Dawnweaver wrote...

I think people are judging DAO characters with player's own standard of morality.

Which may or may not be applicable to that world. It's very dangerous to assume parallel between us and things that we observe, even if they are superficially similar.

Ok, I see what you're getting at.
However, "good" and "evil" is something very heavily hardwired into us by society. It's very hard for us to view another society's actions as anything other that "good" or "evil" by our standards. And since the creators of Thedas likely have moral viewpoint similar to our own, and since Thedas itself shares very strong similarities to a few Western cultures, I think it's safe to assume that the morality of Thedas is similar to ours (killing for selfish reasons is evil, stealing from those who have nothing to spare is evil, charity for unselfish reasons is good, etc.).

[Merlin Dawnweaver]

finnugold wrote...

Merlin Dawnweaver wrote...

I think people are judging DAO characters with player's own standard of morality.

Which may or may not be applicable to that world. It's very dangerous to assume parallel between us and things that we observe, even if they are superficially similar.

Ok, I see what you're getting at.
However, "good" and "evil" is something very heavily hardwired into us by society. It's very hard for us to view another society's actions as anything other that "good" or "evil" by our standards. And since the creators of Thedas likely have moral viewpoint similar to our own, and since Thedas itself shares very strong similarities to a few Western cultures, I think it's safe to assume that the morality of Thedas is similar to ours (killing for selfish reasons is evil, stealing from those who have nothing to spare is evil, charity for unselfish reasons is good, etc.).

I was just wondering if it was really such a safe thing to assume in a world that may or may not be made entirely of marshmallow. 

Modifié par Merlin Dawnweaver, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Pritos]

Lawliet wrote...

UberDuber wrote...

I think she is an old god, free of the taint (like the old god baby)

This. I also think she's going to, eventually, become a main antagonist.

I think it'll turn out that she was pulling the strings in a lot of what happened in Origins, later when her intentions are revealed, which I believe won't be the typical cliché motives either. I see a lot of potential in what Flemeth can bring to the DA storyline.

I don't believe she will be more of an antagonist than The Architect.

[Harcken]

I don't know if this has been answered in a post or something, but how does she live after you kill her in DAO?

[NICKjnp]

Harcken wrote...

I don't know if this has been answered in a post or something, but how does she live after you kill her in DAO?

It's possible that you don't really "kill" Flemeth.  You only kill the host... or that she let you think you killed her.  She is a shiffty one.

[Pritos]

Harcken wrote...

I don't know if this has been answered in a post or something, but how does she live after you kill her in DAO?

I don't think this has been answered yet, but there are theories... Like always. For an example: DA2 is contemporary to DAO, so when she appears to Hawke, The Warden hasn't killed her yet.

[finnugold]

Merlin Dawnweaver wrote...

finnugold wrote...

Merlin Dawnweaver wrote...

I think people are judging DAO characters with player's own standard of morality.

Which may or may not be applicable to that world. It's very dangerous to assume parallel between us and things that we observe, even if they are superficially similar.

Ok, I see what you're getting at.
However, "good" and "evil" is something very heavily hardwired into us by society. It's very hard for us to view another society's actions as anything other that "good" or "evil" by our standards. And since the creators of Thedas likely have moral viewpoint similar to our own, and since Thedas itself shares very strong similarities to a few Western cultures, I think it's safe to assume that the morality of Thedas is similar to ours (killing for selfish reasons is evil, stealing from those who have nothing to spare is evil, charity for unselfish reasons is good, etc.).

I was just wondering if it was really such a safe thing to assume in a world that may or may not be made entirely of marshmallow. 

Lol, wtf?

By the way, I noticed I started a debate with you in two threads. I have nothing against you personally, I just don't necessarily agree with you. So don't take it as me trying to "attack" you somehow.

More on-topic:
In regards to Flemeth's hut and the corpses. Even if she did kill them out of self-preservation (to keep them from leading the Orlesians to her), I think the fact that she displayed their corpses in her home - presumably as a warning - is rather... disturbed.

If you ignore the corpses and assume that she was just attempting to avoid detection, then why didn't she just move? If she had no other choice, then I wouldn't say it's inherently "evil" for her to have killed them, but she had another option that would've avoided unnessicary death and chose not to take it. That's pretty evil, in my opinion.

[Merlin Dawnweaver]

I was just saying that Theldas might be different from our world in some strange and unintuitive way, such as being made entirely from marshmallow.

Those corpses might be poly-morphed half eaten boars. Maybe she decided to teach critters to polymorph into humans because she was bored. Then she ate them.

Of course I am not being serious. 

FYI I don't take offense to reasonable arguments.

Modifié par Merlin Dawnweaver, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Merlin326]

Merlin Dawnweaver wrote...

I was just saying that Theldas might be different from our world in some strange and unintuitive way, such as being made entirely from marshmallow.

Those corpses might be poly-morphed half eaten boars. Maybe she decided to teach critters to polymorph into humans because she was bored. Then she ate them.

Of course I am not being serious. 

Knowing Flemeth, I wouldnt be at all surprised if this was in fact the truth.

[Ayanko]

Pritos wrote...

Harcken wrote...

I don't know if this has been answered in a post or something, but how does she live after you kill her in DAO?

I don't think this has been answered yet, but there are theories... Like always. For an example: DA2 is contemporary to DAO, so when she appears to Hawke, The Warden hasn't killed her yet.

^--This, the flemeth we see is still the old hag has no new body only shapeshifted so she looks more powerful and frightful. So I assume we only see flemeth in the start of the game,The first year of hawkes adventure Not even that because some  wardens killed flemeth off halfway through the game. (Most likely when wynne got the cleansing aura talent)

[Morroian]

Its implied even in DAO that you didn't actually kill Flemeth when you defeated her.

[Knight Templar_]

Morroian wrote...

Its implied even in DAO that you didn't actually kill Flemeth when you defeated her.

I'd like to know how that works. I mean, does every sprit I "kill" just come back to trouble me later?

I understand that I'm most likely just destroying their connection to our world(and not the sprit itself), but how easy is it for them to come back?
Is it possible I am just fighting the same 6 or so rage demons throughout the game? When I kill sprits in the fade does that stick?

Modifié par Knight Templar , 05 septembre 2010 - 11:48 .

[nightcobra]

much like the architect wants to free the darkspawn, i'm thinking flemeth's goal is to free the old gods (untainted) as she's probably an old god herself



at least, that's what i think

[Arrtis]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

much like the architect wants to free the darkspawn, i'm thinking flemeth's goal is to free the old gods (untainted) as she's probably an old god herself

at least, that's what i think

I think your probably right.
I also think Bioware is gonna be vague and only suggest stuff...

[ZaroktheImmortal]

She has a plan, I'm not sure if I would call her evil. She certainly knows more than she lets on, but she hasn't done too much in the way of bad things yet to know if she really is a villainous character.

[Arrtis]

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

She has a plan, I'm not sure if I would call her evil. She certainly knows more than she lets on, but she hasn't done too much in the way of bad things yet to know if she really is a villainous character.

I thought she saves you....so that makes her good...

[ashwind]

Arrtis wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

She has a plan, I'm not sure if I would call her evil. She certainly knows more than she lets on, but she hasn't done too much in the way of bad things yet to know if she really is a villainous character.

I thought she saves you....so that makes her good...

After she saves you... you "kill" her so the warden is evil 

[nightcobra]

Arrtis wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

She has a plan, I'm not sure if I would call her evil. She certainly knows more than she lets on, but she hasn't done too much in the way of bad things yet to know if she really is a villainous character.

I thought she saves you....so that makes her good...

that makes her opportunistic to me 

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Arrtis wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

She has a plan, I'm not sure if I would call her evil. She certainly knows more than she lets on, but she hasn't done too much in the way of bad things yet to know if she really is a villainous character.

I thought she saves you....so that makes her good...

Yes, but she could have some sort of grand scheme behind why she does it. In this game she saves you and has you deliver the package. But what is the importance of this package? Everything she does seems to have more meaning, and just from talking to her in origins I get the feeling she knows more than she tells you. So is she doing it for a good reason? Or does she have some other intentions?

[Arrtis]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

She has a plan, I'm not sure if I would call her evil. She certainly knows more than she lets on, but she hasn't done too much in the way of bad things yet to know if she really is a villainous character.

I thought she saves you....so that makes her good...

that makes her opportunistic to me 

Because having wardens to stop the blight is a very selfish thing to do, I suppose she only gains from that...

[Arrtis]

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

She has a plan, I'm not sure if I would call her evil. She certainly knows more than she lets on, but she hasn't done too much in the way of bad things yet to know if she really is a villainous character.

I thought she saves you....so that makes her good...

Yes, but she could have some sort of grand scheme behind why she does it. In this game she saves you and has you deliver the package. But what is the importance of this package? Everything she does seems to have more meaning, and just from talking to her in origins I get the feeling she knows more than she tells you. So is she doing it for a good reason? Or does she have some other intentions?

She likes to be alone and encountering small groups of people is what she can handle mentally as a hermit?
Crazy?
I suppose she could be concoting some master plan....but I think were too use to the planners of this plan to have bad intentions.....

[nightcobra]

Arrtis wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

She has a plan, I'm not sure if I would call her evil. She certainly knows more than she lets on, but she hasn't done too much in the way of bad things yet to know if she really is a villainous character.

I thought she saves you....so that makes her good...

that makes her opportunistic to me 

Because having wardens to stop the blight is a very selfish thing to do, I suppose she only gains from that...

a freed soul of an old god into a baby she can raise seems like a fine motive to me if she intends to free the old gods