76 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

I understand your point of view, I think: the sniper rifle is a powerful tool to eliminate high-value targets, therefore it doesn't need a huge ammo capacity.

My own opinion is just that the restriction only keeps people who really like sniping from doing what they prefer while not really changing the balance of the game at all. You can kill just as fast if not faster with other weapons.

Modifié par termokanden, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:15 .

[Homebound]

ME2 isnt the kind of game where you stick with one weapon and one weapon only. Its not a traditional shooter in which you have a main weapon and a weaker backup weapon when the main weapon runs out of bullets. Instead the weapons are like a sort of Rock.Paper.Scissors.



Here is a perfect example of what I mean:





Its hard to untrain that idea of using just one gun, but once you get it down, boy do you get it down.

[sinosleep]

His use of different ammo on different weapons is also the best route to take IMO. Made spectacular use of cryo ammo in particular.

[Athenau]

Yeah, I've found that binding an ammo type per weapon really makes switching during a fight useful. I used to be annoyed when fighting mercs + mechs with inferno ammo since mechs resisted fire damage, but it's so much nicer to just bind inferno to assault rifle, disruptor to shotgun/pistol, and go to town.

[OniGanon]

Err, actually sniper rifle is best used on normal mobs. The Mantis and Widow, anyway. Their ability to oneshot normal mobs is the most useful thing about them.

Modifié par OniGanon, 07 septembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[PsyrenY]

I see no problem with Widow's ammo capacity. Mantis definitely (especially considering how weak it is AND that it holds less) but I've never run out of ammo with the Widow when I really needed it.



Between the Tempest/Locust and Carnifex/Phalanx (depending on your DLC), combined with ammo powers, squaddies and incinerate... there's just a ton of ways to kill bad guys without needing to Widow everyone you see.



Mantis in particular should not be used indiscriminately, since it's so much harder to one-shot protected enemies.

[numotsbane]

There's only two classes that can get the widow, and they get the best accuracy boosts through passive skills and powers. they also have a really wide range of options to deal with enemies other than the sniper. besides, The Widow has 15 shots, and thats heaps plenty. I only really run out against multiple YMIRS...

And Oni, the best use for a widow is definitely to headshot a YMIR. mmmm, explosions.

EDIT: sorry, thats 15 with the off-shoulder Ammo pack.

Modifié par numotsbane, 07 septembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[termokanden]

Just_mike wrote...

ME2 isnt the kind of game where you stick with one weapon and one weapon only. Its not a traditional shooter in which you have a main weapon and a weaker backup weapon when the main weapon runs out of bullets. Instead the weapons are like a sort of Rock.Paper.Scissors.

First of all, what are you talking about? I switch weapons all the time in traditional shooters.

That's how I play ME2 as well. But I don't see the point in forcing a player to play like this if they don't want to.

People's arguments in this thread all seem to be that YOU don't need it because you switch weapons.

Sure, but why prevent a sniper enthusiast from having fun. It wouldn't hurt the game at all if it was possible. Just double the capacity and thermal clip amount and it's much more reasonable, but it doesn't change the balance of the game.

Basically, I don't want the game telling me how to play and when to switch weapons. I want weapon switching to be helpful but up to the player. If you really enjoy using a particular weapon, where's the harm in that?

Modifié par termokanden, 07 septembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Adding capacity to sniper rifles really does offset the balance of the game. If they 2x the capacity of the Widow, I'll be sleepwalking through the Collector Ship platforms. My squadmates will die, but it won't matter, I can take my sweet time, do 30 cloak assassinations without switching weapons and run to opposite of the area. If that's on insanity, how would a new player's impressions on game balance be if they started playing the game for the first time on normal and using the Widow? Think about why the Viper and Scimitar were designed; they have larger capacity and fire rate, but are offset by slower damage. All weapons and powers have limitations and advantages in this game, it is paper-scissors-rocks. In most games, I always play as a sniper or ranged character, and I can understand the wish to have the ability to snipe 95% of the time, but even in other traditional shooters that I know of are not set up like that; the sniper rifle in Halo have only like 20 rounds, if I remember correctly.

[demersel]

No the main argument is that that ammo count on sniper rifles IS fine, IF you can make your ammo count. (whis is even stated IN THE GAME on one of the loading screens). If you fing yourself constantly without ammo for your sniper rifle - you're doing something wrong, and maybe you should work more on your skill and overall efiiciency, if it is THAT IMPORTANT to you.

[Besetment]

Really? Incisor video please.

[termokanden]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Adding capacity to sniper rifles really does offset the balance of the game. If they 2x the capacity of the Widow, I'll be sleepwalking through the Collector Ship platforms.

 
You can just shoot people with other weapons instead. Mattock, Heavy Pistol, SMGs, even the GPS. All work just fine here and quite honestly kill as fast as the Widow due to its long reload time.

Adding capacity to the sniper rifles makes the game ever so slightly easier, but only if you do run out of ammo for the other weapons as well, which seems unlikely.

No the main argument is that that ammo count on sniper rifles IS fine, IF you can make your ammo count. (whis is even stated IN THE GAME on one of the loading screens). If you fing yourself constantly without ammo for your sniper rifle - you're doing something wrong, and maybe you should work more on your skill and overall efiiciency, if it is THAT IMPORTANT to you.

Ad hominem. Yelling in text plus the good old "if your opinion differs from mine, you must lack skill".

[khevan]

The Widow does have a long reload time...but it's the same reload time as every other weapon out there.

With very few exceptions, no other weapon can kill a lower level enemy in one reload cycle (one shot/one clip, etc) with full defenses on Insanity except for the Widow. The Claymore can pull it off, and the Eviscerator is one shot + one melee. I haven't used the GPS, so I can't really comment on that one. Maybe the Revenant, with it's huge clip size, but I've never used it either, so I can't say for sure.

The same arguement holds true for the Mantis at earlier levels. It's a weaker version of the Widow, but enemies are weaker then too, so by the time you need the Widow to get OSOK, you have the Widow.

Basically, if you're a good shot and can headshot consistently, the Widow (in my opinion) is the fastest way to clear a level. If you double the ammo for that weapon, it becomes even more ungodly, and (to me at least) the fun of sniping will quickly lose its appeal.

My opinion? If you want to snipe and one-shot everything you come across without running out of ammo, play on a lower difficulty level where a missed headshot isn't a wasted heatsink. You'll save ammo, be able to play the game how you want to, and everyone's happy. Otherwise, if you play on PC, modify your game to let the Mantis and Widow have 30 rounds each. It's your game, play how you want, but I like how snipers are in this game as is (with the exception of the Incisor. Too little ammo for a 3 round burst sniper.)

Edit:  formatting and spelling > me

Modifié par khevan, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:52 .

[PsyrenY]

termokanden wrote...

Sure, but why prevent a sniper enthusiast from having fun. It wouldn't hurt the game at all if it was possible. Just double the capacity and thermal clip amount and it's much more reasonable, but it doesn't change the balance of the game.

Basically, I don't want the game telling me how to play and when to switch weapons. I want weapon switching to be helpful but up to the player. If you really enjoy using a particular weapon, where's the harm in that?

The problem I have with that logic is that you can extend it to circumventing any balancing factor in the game.

Say I'm an Adept; I love firing off warp combos. If the game removed the cooldowns from Singularity and Warp then I could bomb entire packs of enemies to my heart's content. Would that change affect any other class? No. But would it be unbalanced? Yes.

The limit on sniper rifle capacity is a balancing factor - wanting to circumvent that is missing the point. A game can't give you everything you want; some choice has to be sacrificed in order to force your strategy to evolve. Sometimes the game has to say "here is your weakness - find a way to deal with it." It especially has to say this when the tactic you are using already has inherent advantage to you - in the SR's case, by having a range so long that enemies can hardly even react, much less retaliate. The low ammo capacity gives you a reason to put Shepard in harm's way, something s/he would never have to do otherwise.

[Athenau]

With very few exceptions, no other weapon can kill a lower level enemy in one reload cycle (one shot/one clip, etc) with full defenses on Insanity except for the Widow. The Claymore can pull it off, and the Eviscerator is one shot + one melee. I haven't used the GPS, so I can't really comment on that one. Maybe the Revenant, with it's huge clip size, but I've never used it either, so I can't say for sure.

...what? I'm hard pressed think of a weapon that can't kill a grunt enemy with one mag.

[demersel]

termokanden wrote...
Ad hominem. Yelling in text plus the good old "if your opinion differs from mine, you must lack skill".

I am sorry that i might have offended your feelings with upper register letters or with a possible implications at your lack of skill and general inaptitude. That wasn't my intention at any point, and I think you might have read to much into my post and took it to personal. wich is most likely due to my poor choice of phraising and word highlight method.

However i think it is also not right to completly disregard my point of view since it contradicts yours, and you for some feel offended by it.

I prefer to keep my post as short and informative as possible, but in this case i feel a need to elaborate a bit on my  point of view on the topic of this thread.

I feel that you are wrong in your claims that sniper rifles are broken gameplay element, and are in need of tweeking through increasing the ammo limit on them.

1. The core gameplay mechanic of ME2 include limited ammo and ammo menagement. This is one of the main gameplay element. This is how ME2 works.

2. Sniper rifles have limited ammo, which can be depleted in no time if used inefficiently. That is a good thing as it provides a challenge to the player. And that what makes using this type of weapon in game rewarding.

3. The thing in question as it seems to me is to where the line between challenging and frustrating goes. In my personal expirience (and that is the only thing you and i can safely refer to, since neither of us has access to gameplay stats collected by bioware) - ME2 excels at that point, making sniper play extremly rewarding and fun. It is just about perfect for every difficulty, which is hard to achieve, and fully deserves a praise.

4. There are 4 different sniper rifles in the game at the moment, so let's talk about each one of them in detail.

First however, it should be noted that ME2 features a lot of different weapons, each of which has a uniqe feel to it demands a different aproach to use successfully. I feel, that there are no bad weapons in ME2, they have a fine balance between them, and it is fun to use all of them. so a choise to use a particular gun comes down to personal preferences and play stile.

So we have 4 sniper rifles:

Mantis - it is a basic sniper rifle, with moderate power and bolt action. And it has a low ammo capacity. It is meant to be used in the beginning of the game, until the time the more advanced guns are acquired. That said it is the onle bolt action sniper rifle for non soldier/infiltrator class. So if you prefer to use bolt action sniper rifle, and for some reason you're not a sildier/infiltrator class - that's what you get. And that is your penalty for not being a class proficient with sniper rifles. Wich is as it should be. The weapon is designed to  usable but heve drawbacks

Viper - is an advance sniper rifle that gives an alternate sniping expirience - it has lot's of ammo, fast rate of fire, and low damage. It is a weapon for long distance combat, that has fewer restrictions laid upon you. It is a comfortable sniper rifle. for those who just want a scoped weapon. It is a fine versitile weapon, again, availible to all classes.  

Incisor - that is a DLC weapon, which is optional, and as all DLC weapons has gamebraking quality to it (as per Cristina Norman post). it provides a different experience for those who want it.   Haven't used it much myself. But again it is a sniper rifle usable by all classes and you get it from the start, so it is supposed to have drawbacks - to allow existence of more advanced weapons. Still it provides uniqe experience and does not became completly obsolete.

Widow - is a prestige sniper rifle that gives players ultimate sniping experience (for those who want it) and has almost no drawbacks, except those inpose by weapon class itself - it has limited ammo count, slow RTF, and is difficult (but possible) to use in close combat. And this is the weapon only classes with sniper training can get. I think that's fair.
There is really no reason for you to use Mantis if your Soldier/infiltrator and have Widow training. If there was the weapon would be useless.

So in my opinion all sniper rifles are fine and they allow chioce of play style.

5. I intentionally don't go into numbers, DPS, counting how many shot it takes to kill someone because it is really beside the point. There are five difficulties, and each has it's own parametres and balance.

To summ it up: the game is a system. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. In case of ME2 and sniper rifles in particular it works, and does a great job at that. 

And that leads me directly to my previous post's point. I will repeat it. (without the offensive UPPER REGISTER LETTERS)

The sniper rifles are fine. Learn to play.

Modifié par demersel, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:15 .

[khevan]

Athenau wrote...

With very few exceptions, no other weapon can kill a lower level enemy in one reload cycle (one shot/one clip, etc) with full defenses on Insanity except for the Widow. The Claymore can pull it off, and the Eviscerator is one shot + one melee. I haven't used the GPS, so I can't really comment on that one. Maybe the Revenant, with it's huge clip size, but I've never used it either, so I can't say for sure.

...what? I'm hard pressed think of a weapon that can't kill a grunt enemy with one mag.

Really?  The Locust can't, the Shuriken can't, the Tempest I haven't managed it, if it's possible.

None of the heavy pistols I've managed it.  The Avenger, no, the Vindicator, maybe, the GPR, no.

Unless I'm doing something horribly wrong, I can only think of a couple of weapons that can pull off a kill in one mag, without AR for a soldier.

With the Widow, you can easily one-shot mooks without AR or Cloak damage boost.  I haven't managed that on any other weapon, really.

[PsyrenY]

Carnifex/Phalanx can definitely kill a protected mook with one clip. I used both to pick off the missile launching Vorcha on Mordin's recruitment. (Of course, their defense was armor, so I had type advantage to begin with.)



@ demersel - Incisor is excellent on squadmates for a variety of reasons, but consistently underperforms on Shepard relative to the other options. As it is DLC though, I don't see a problem with that.

[demersel]

khevan wrote...
Really?  The Locust can't, the Shuriken can't, the Tempest I haven't managed it, if it's possible.

None of the heavy pistols I've managed it.  The Avenger, no, the Vindicator, maybe, the GPR, no.

Unless I'm doing something horribly wrong, I can only think of a couple of weapons that can pull off a kill in one mag, without AR for a soldier.

With the Widow, you can easily one-shot mooks without AR or Cloak damage boost.  I haven't managed that on any other weapon, really.

Strange thing - i often feel there is a small delay before the damage is dealt fully... I am most certainly wrong on this one, but for me it always feels like there is some time in which the damage is being dealt, after the shot connects... may be it is due to ammo power usage... it comes down to this - if wait a bit between shots - you kill enemies faster, and with less ammo spent, then if going full auto... i think it take me 3-4 busrts from tempest, and about 12 -15 shot's from locust. 

Modifié par demersel, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Athenau]

Really? The Locust can't, the Shuriken can't, the Tempest I haven't managed it, if it's possible.

You have to be joking. The mantis routinely kills grunt enemies with one headshot and does ~260 damage per shot. The Locust does 500 damage per mag. The Shuriken 480. The Tempest a whopping 700. Even accounting for the headshot factor there's more than enough slack in there to get a kill per mag.

You're seriously telling me that you have trouble killing someone with a Tempest mag?

The Avenger, no, the Vindicator, maybe, the GPR, no.

The Vindicator is a "maybe"? The Vindicator does 883 damage per mag. Even you get NO headshots (which is dumb, since part of the Vindicator's appeal is its accuracy) you should easily be able to kill a standard enemy with a mag.

Unless I'm doing something horribly wrong, I can only think of a couple of weapons that can pull off a kill in one mag, without AR for a soldier.

You're doing something horribly wrong.

Modifié par Athenau, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:37 .

[demersel]

Optimystic_X wrote...
@ demersel - Incisor is excellent on squadmates for a variety of reasons, but consistently underperforms on Shepard relative to the other options. As it is DLC though, I don't see a problem with that.

I know, and i agree completly. My point was only about personal use. there is a problem with incisor, and i think it is a bug, (and there for should be fixed) - it doesn't benefit from upgrades at all. So while it is great in the beginning of the game, i feel it is almost usless in late game, even on squadmates.

[ReiSilver]

as someone who didn't play shooters until ME1 and was really attracted to the 'you don't have to search for ammo all the time' I got used to playing with waiting for my weapon to cool down, by the end I had my pistol modded so I could shoot all day without it over heating.

This made the limited ammo on the sniper rifles in ME2 very jarring and something I hated for a long time, but head shooting people is just too fun so I kept with it.



I gotta admit it I think it made me a better player. After playing infiltrator and keeping track of my shots my next play through as an adept was like easy-mode only instead of waiting for the gun to cool off I was waiting on powers to cool off.

[Besetment]

.Really?  The Locust can't, the Shuriken can't, the Tempest I haven't managed it, if it's possible.

None of the heavy pistols I've managed it.  The Avenger, no, the Vindicator, maybe, the GPR, no.

Unless I'm doing something horribly wrong, I can only think of a couple of weapons that can pull off a kill in one mag, without AR for a soldier.

With the Widow, you can easily one-shot mooks without AR or Cloak damage boost.  I haven't managed that on any other weapon, really.

This all depends on range. Sniper rifles don't have range multipliers but all other weapons do. Its quite easy to to kill most mooks in a single SMG magazine if you are close enough - point blank/melee range being the ideal. It is perhaps a bit counter intuitive, as you might think you would get rewarded for skill and accuracy in hitting a moving target hitbox the size of a pin head with a semi auto but thats not the case. Almost always its better to use skills like Adrenaline Rush, Tactical Cloak, Tech Armour, Charge to run down baddies and smack them for +100% damage at point blank as long as it wont get you killed. Better still if you can also tilt up and hit the head.

Modifié par Besetment, 07 septembre 2010 - 03:42 .

[PsyrenY]

Besetment wrote...

Almost always its better to use skills like Adrenaline Rush, Tactical Cloak, Tech Armour, Charge to run down baddies and smack them for +100% damage at point blank as long as it wont get you killed.

Well, don't forget that for the casters, you can get the same 100% buff by freezing/ragdolling clusters of foes first, without needing high-powered weapons or time-dilation to keep your bacon out of the frying pan. On insanity, the danger of being point blank to anything can swiftly outweigh the benefits.

[OniGanon]

AFAIK the Incisor benefits from upgrades just like any other non-heavy weapon.



If you're talking about the fact that its name never changes, the same is true of several other weapons and they all benefit from upgrades just fine.