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[Giggles_Manically]

Except his many comments on how bad things happen when he leads, and how he is much happier following.

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...
I'm mostly going on in game shorthand. Eamon says that he can lead troops. That's an indicator to us that he can. We're supposed to believe that what he's saying is true.

Eum no, Eamon also says that without a Therein Ferelden would collapse.
Eamon *believes* that Alistair can lead men (makes sense as hardened, unhardened not really). We don't *have* to believe him.

And Anora rallies the troops just as well. She doesn't fight, but she doesn't have to to be a good "War leader".    

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 septembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[errant_knight]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Except his many comments on how bad things happen when he leads, and how he is much happier following.

Alistair believes lots of things about himself that aren't true.

[Obadiah]

errant_knight wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Except his many comments on how bad things happen when he leads, and how he is much happier following.

Alistair believes lots of things about himself that aren't true.

Alistair has a much firmer grasp on right, wrong, and justice than Anora who, if you force her, will pull some really devious moves on the Warden in order to stay in power. She's not as bad a Bhelen, but she wants to rule badly. Mostly, I chose Alistair or the Alistair/Anora combo.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I'm mostly going on in game shorthand. Eamon says that he can lead troops. That's an indicator to us that he can. We're supposed to believe that what he's saying is true.

Eum no, Eamon also says that without a Therein Ferelden would collapse.
Eamon *believes* that Alistair can lead men (makes sense as hardened, unhardened not really). We don't *have* to believe him.

And Anora rallies the troops just as well. She doesn't fight, but she doesn't have to to be a good "War leader".    

Heh, I'm not going to debate you on this, KoP. We disagree too utterly and see the characters to differently for it to result in finding common ground. Please don't take that as a negative, you know I like you. We've just danced this dance too many times before. But I'm really speaking about how I believe that exposition is handled in story formats that don't allow for exposition. My personal feeling is that whatever we may believe about Alistair or Anora's fitness to be king/queen, we are supposed to accept that battle, including leadership in battle, is not an area where Alistair lacks skills.

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...
But I'm really speaking about how I believe that exposition is handled in story formats that don't allow for exposition. My personal feeling is that whatever we may believe about Alistair or Anora's fitness to be king/queen, we are supposed to accept that battle, including leadership in battle, is not an area where Alistair lacks skills.

I am not saying that you are wrong, and I definately see Alistair hardened being a good "warrior king".
I was simply questioning the idea that Eamon, who gave up Alistair when he was a small boy, apparently knows a lot about him, possibly more than we. I think what Eamon is saying here is not based on what he knows about Alistair, but rather wishful thinking (which may or may not be true). So I was simply arguing against the idea that what Eamon is saying has to be taken as true, because I don't think he knows Alistair that much. 

While Anora definately doesn't display skill in fighting, we are also supposed to accept her being capable of rallying troops and leading them to battle as well (without fighting).   

And no, I am not taking it negatively at all, I know we've been through this a lot

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I've done all the options except Male Cousland!Anora, but personal preference is for Anora to rule alone because I don't think a Grey Warden should have that power.



Then of course she gives me an arling... *sigh*

[Merilsell]

It depends on the character I'm playing but mostly I prefer Warden!Alistair. He is just happier and has his freedom this way. Though it varies from character to character what he is doing after the blight If he becomes king, he is always solo and hardened and has a nice Warden mistress/chancellor

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Except his many comments on how bad things happen when he leads, and how he is much happier following.

The way I see it, you can neither take Anora's nor Alistair's comments about themselves at face value.  Maric also didn't think he was king material- or prince material, for that matter- and he was fine.  Nor is Anora the be-all end-all she thinks she is.  Both of them are repeating what they were told about themselves growing up, and neither have the greatest self-awareness.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 septembre 2010 - 02:21 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And Anora rallies the troops just as well. She doesn't fight, but she doesn't have to to be a good "War leader".    

We've had this discussion before, but the fact that Loghain could railroad her as he does shows that not being a general is one of her weaknesses as a ruler.  Historically rulers have found it problematic when the nation's armies don't look to them as their natural leader.  OTOH, Cailan shows the down side of having a ruler who's also a military man.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
But I'm really speaking about how I believe that exposition is handled in story formats that don't allow for exposition. My personal feeling is that whatever we may believe about Alistair or Anora's fitness to be king/queen, we are supposed to accept that battle, including leadership in battle, is not an area where Alistair lacks skills.

I am not saying that you are wrong, and I definately see Alistair hardened being a good "warrior king".
I was simply questioning the idea that Eamon, who gave up Alistair when he was a small boy, apparently knows a lot about him, possibly more than we. I think what Eamon is saying here is not based on what he knows about Alistair, but rather wishful thinking (which may or may not be true). So I was simply arguing against the idea that what Eamon is saying has to be taken as true, because I don't think he knows Alistair that much. 

While Anora definately doesn't display skill in fighting, we are also supposed to accept her being capable of rallying troops and leading them to battle as well (without fighting).   

And no, I am not taking it negatively at all, I know we've been through this a lot

I'm not saying that it HAS to be taken as true, just that I believe we are meant to. Like everything else in the game, it's completely open to interpretation. One of the reasons I believe that's a bit of exposition stuck in there for our edification, is that it does come out of left field a bit. The fact that we don't see or hear any reason for Eamon to know this takes it out of the narrative, and makes it something different. My belief is that it was a convienient way to get something out there that they wanted in play, and hadn't come up in a more natural fashion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And Anora rallies the troops just as well. She doesn't fight, but she doesn't have to to be a good "War leader".    

We've had this discussion before, but the fact that Loghain could railroad her as he does shows that not being a general is one of her weaknesses as a ruler.  Historically rulers have found it problematic when the nation's armies don't look to them as their natural leader.  OTOH, Cailan shows the down side of having a ruler who's also a military man.

Because Loghain is no ordinary man, he is THE Ferelden general. Obviously he will be able to roilroad her with ease in that regard. I don't think even Anora is going to claim that she knows more about war than Loghain, whom Cailan relied on for strategy and actually planing the war (Cailan is no military man. A wannabe warrior king more like it. A military man doesn't find strategy boring).  
But this does not mean that Anora can't handle war. Perhaps not lead it in person or even strategize, but that's not necessary. Bhelen doesn't have military experience and he still manages to handle war extremily well. So I can defiantely see Anora managing war, in an armchair kind of way.  

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...
I'm not saying that it HAS to be taken as true, just that I believe we are meant to. Like everything else in the game, it's completely open to interpretation. One of the reasons I believe that's a bit of exposition stuck in there for our edification, is that it does come out of left field a bit. The fact that we don't see or hear any reason for Eamon to know this takes it out of the narrative, and makes it something different. My belief is that it was a convienient way to get something out there that they wanted in play, and hadn't come up in a more natural fashion.

I saw it as Eamon's wishful thinking. Depends on perspective I guess.  

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I'm not saying that it HAS to be taken as true, just that I believe we are meant to. Like everything else in the game, it's completely open to interpretation. One of the reasons I believe that's a bit of exposition stuck in there for our edification, is that it does come out of left field a bit. The fact that we don't see or hear any reason for Eamon to know this takes it out of the narrative, and makes it something different. My belief is that it was a convienient way to get something out there that they wanted in play, and hadn't come up in a more natural fashion.

I saw it as Eamon's wishful thinking. Depends on perspective I guess.  

One of the things that was done quite cleverly in this game was to make all types of roleplay supportable. Hence the ability for both of us to enjoy such different games.

[Sabariel]

I always make Alistair King unless I'm playing a non-human noble who wants to run off with him.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because Loghain is no ordinary man, he is THE Ferelden general. Obviously he will be able to roilroad her with ease in that regard. I don't think even Anora is going to claim that she knows more about war than Loghain, whom Cailan relied on for strategy and actually planing the war (Cailan is no military man. A wannabe warrior king more like it. A military man doesn't find strategy boring).  

I see Cailan's comments as offhand and not serious.  He likes to rile Loghain.  But let's not get into another Cailan discussion- I'm still exhausted from the last one.  LOL

But this does not mean that Anora can't handle war. Perhaps not lead it in person or even strategize, but that's not necessary. Bhelen doesn't have military experience and he still manages to handle war extremily well. So I can defiantely see Anora managing war, in an armchair kind of way.  

 

Interesting, I always peg noble dwarves and especially Aeducans as being warriors.  Bhelen does attack you if you make Harrowmont king, not sure where you get that he's not a warrior?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Interesting, I always peg noble dwarves and especially Aeducans as being warriors.  Bhelen does attack you if you make Harrowmont king, not sure where you get that he's not a warrior?

Other than the fact that he is very young, thus not likely to have had much experience, he was also not seen in good light from Endrin, thus probably never given the opportunity to command like the DN and I presume Trian.
Not saying he is not a warrior, but I am not sure he's had experience actually commanding troops in a battle.

I guess what I am saying is that war is not simply fighting battles. It's financing it, managing ressources and manpower...etc etc all of which I think Anora is capable of doing (hence referring to it as "armchair"). As for the actual command of the troops, it's not a concern for my canon as he does it. Though I understand how it can be a concern for those who do not wish / can't marry her (though maybe if appointed chancellor to Anora, one could still lead the military).  

[Wulfram]

Even unhardened Alistair is popular, and that's really the primary job of a King. The PC needs to stick around long enough to make sure he's listening to the right advisors, but he should generally do fine.



Anora is a non-crazy version of her father without the military experience. She'll rule ably enough, but I tend to go off her when she wants to chop Alistair's head off - and going by the epilogue she doesn't do much for the city elves, which would have probably caused a major fall out later.

[CalJones]

Well, I went off Alistair when he wanted to cut Loghain's head off, so it goes both ways (was going to say cuts both ways, but too much pun is bad).

Anora certainly doesn't have Loghain's military experience but it's a sound bet she's picked up at least some of it - you don't get to be a general's daughter without gaining some military nous. She's also apparently quite handy with a bow and sword, so not entirely defenceless either.

Anyway, as far as Alistair goes, what he lacks, mostly, is confidence in his own abilities. So whilst he prefers not to lead, there's nothing to say he couldn't, with the right guidance. I don't believe that guidance should come from Eamon, however, because he's a giant ****.

[sylvanaerie]

Tequitos wrote...

Atleast if you marry him to Anora he won't die a virgin.

He's never a virgin in my playthroughs

On a more serious note...As Errant said, it depends on what kind of story your playing out.  I put whomever my PC feels is willing and will get the job done.  Sometimes its Anora, sometimes its Alistair. 
If you want a more 'fairy tale' type ending, put him on the throne.  Alistair becomes popular with the common men and does some good for the elves.
If you want a sort of 'middle class' ending, put Anora on the throne.  She builds a university and improves trade with other nations.  But she also has riots in the Alienage due to food shortages, so not so good for the elves, thinking she maintains the crappy status quo there.
Both rule effectively together, Anora teaching Alistair more about governance and Ferelden comes out the better for it. 
If you play a female noble on good terms with Alistair (Neutral and above, can't be hostile I think) you can rule with him.  Human noble males can propose to Anora (prior to the landsmeet and rule with her)
In the end, Ferelden does well regardless of which choice you make so have fun.  Play more than once and mix and match your choices.  I've done all these and it was fun.

And yea I had a bug in my game and got ninja loved by the templar on my HNM once too.   So Alistair wasnt' a virgin in that game either

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 05 septembre 2010 - 11:03 .

[CalJones]

This sort of stuff never happens to me! (I suppose that's because I haven't yet used mods to complicate things yet).

I think the only not so good ending (epilogue-wise) is letting unhardened Alistair rule alone. However, it's possible to do this on purpose if you plan to grab power as his Chancellor (which KoP did with his Dain Aeducan character). There's logic to every choice.

[Wulfram]

CalJones wrote...
Well, I went off Alistair when he wanted to cut Loghain's head off, so it goes both ways (was going to say cuts both ways, but too much pun is bad). 

Loghain's done rather more to deserve death than Alistair, who is simply inconvenient.

Anora is very ruthless, though she does seem to be honest in her dedication to Ferelden.  She'd make a good grey warden, actually.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

MariSkep wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

CalJones wrote...
Well, I went off Alistair when he wanted to cut Loghain's head off, so it goes both ways (was going to say cuts both ways, but too much pun is bad). 

Loghain's done rather more to deserve death than Alistair, who is simply inconvenient.

Anora is very ruthless, though she does seem to be honest in her dedication to Ferelden.  She'd make a good grey warden, actually.

No she wouldn't. Her loyalty is to herself and Fereldan in that order. Maybe it's just me but I don't want someone who's willingness to combat the Blight is going to be compromised because of pre existing loyalties.

Well nobody understood why the Grey Wardens were needed, but one person until after the Landsmeet. I don't see it unreasonable at all for Anora to believe her father is the better choice to lead the armies than two rookie Grey Wardens.