177 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaalyah]

@ The Fred: don't worry, you haven't said anything bad. From what Avado wrote, I thought he misinterpreted my words, so I suppose the problem was that, since my English is not so good, maybe I said something that sounds offensive in English. From that came my asking. :-)

[avado]

nicethugbert wrote...

I've heard that the PRC is bug ridden and kludgy.

And then some!  One of the more relevant, for me, was the Intuitive attack feat (uses wisdom for AB stat for melee instead of str - lawful align only iirc).  As i understood it, bioware set up AB system without allowing for any modifications, so what ended up happening is the wisdom modifier took up space of the 20 cap (where str, dex, and wis (zen arch)) didnt count towards the cap.  SO you make a high wisdom cleric/hospi, for example with 38 base wisdom and get +12 wisdom= 50 buffed wisdom which is amazing for spells, dc, zen archery, but with intuitive, you were at the +20 cap, so NOTHING else went to real ab buffs    There are many other examples, like having full inventory and death and server crash or logging dead = bad idea!   As buggy as it was, man was it fun to have a character that could do dev crit in badger form, elemental form, dragon form!  k, now im getting a tear 

I havent looked at how nwn2 worked the "prc" expansion (kaelen's or something), so i cant comment on that.  All i can say is, if they didnt learn from what nwn went through (which i hope they did), then there are issues too.

[Haplose]

Vaalyah wrote...
@ Haplose: sure, the camera control is horrible (but also NWN shares the same bad impact on my way of looking around the game! :-P ). About performance... well, of course NWN being older runs smooth even on older computer. Do you know something about Crysis? Its requirements are so high that even now (and that game has come into shops some years ago) few computers can run it smoothly. Of course in 10 years, even a laptop could run Crysis without problems ;-P
However, since I had to wait for a new computer in order to play both NWN and NWN2 (2 different computers during the years), I can understand easily your concern! :-D

I would say Crysis runs much better then NWN2 with comparable graphics settings. It looks much better too. Not my cup of tea though, so I haven't even gotten past the first mission.

By the way, the camera controls *are* really bad, but there's a page on
nwn2.wikia.com which explains (though not very well) how to fix them so
they're not as bad.

Yes, I'm aware. Couldn't play without them. It's slightly less horrible with these fixes. But still bad! What annoys me the most is I cannot rotate the camera in character mode by using mouse movement (and possibly right/left-click).

On the upside after writing last post I bothered to change the graphic settings a bit and seem to got rid of most of the lag without loosing too much quality. Still it seems to me that a game with such graphics should be able to run in 1280x1024 in full glory.

[nicethugbert]

Crappy Camera seems to be an industry standard. Apparently, Game Devs don't have flexible necks. They avoid hills because they're stuck looking at their feet.

[EsLueth]

I loved the oc and HotU for NWN they were my favorite, why because i usually played them with friends online, and as stated before their are some removed features in NWN2 such as Armour customization with tints and changeable parts.

Never finished the oc or MotB for NWN2 because i have a habit of remaking my heros and then getting bored(gonna try to get through both soon)

and one last thing the single player wile a major part of the game is not every thing their were some great servers for the original NWN that i don't think are in NWN2 and never will be, if you couldn't get through the original games story's, playing online with other people may make it more fun i know this worked for me

Modifié par EsLueth, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[dunniteowl]

I only pointed out that Vaalyah wasn't a native speaker for the sake of Avado -- as it seemed he was indicating posting in an NWN2 forum was nothing more than seeking approval for a point of view -- umm, sort of like asking if it was okay to eat ice cream from an ice cream vendor.

It seemed to me that there might be an issue with syntax and grammar useage that might have caused this misinterpretation by not being aware of a non-native English speaking status. And I knew that status from previous discussions in other threads and through PMs regarding other NWN2 related questions.

English language is a funny thing. You can say things that mean very different things by only changing the order of a word. And sometimes, using a synonym (a word that sort of means the same thing in general) can really be very different. Compound that by not knowing that someone isn't a native English speaker (and I am sure this is just as true for other languages when you don't natively speak them) and the field is ripe for misunderstanding or taking things out of context.

dunniteowl

[Banshe]

Would it be possible to make two stickies in this forum:



1. NWN1 vs. NWN2

2. DOA vs NWN2



Any topics appearing in this forum on these two topics can simply be locked and the posters redirected to the stickied threads. It seems like these threads waste a lot of time, effort and motivation. Plus they tend to end up as ambassadors of ill-will. And it is not necessary.



If the poster, as in this case, is simply curious, he or she can certainly get all the information they require from the stickied thread. And can also post in the stickied thread with any additional questions/comments.

[SuperFly_2000]

Vaalyah wrote...
Since for me it is so obvious that NWN2 is wonderful and NWN is horrible :-P

Thats funny. For me it is the other way around.

I am guessing you are only talking about the original campaign now? Let me guess...you didn't get into multiplayer?

For me it was always multiplayer. I didn't even bother with any of the original campaigns at all.

Also it is funny that many are writing that the grapchics in NWN2 are better. That is funny because my interpretation is the opposite. Sure if you are standing still in NWN2 looking down on an area from above it looks kind of ok. If you start moving though and fighting or opening up your inventory or bringing up any other parts of the user interface it looks ugly.

Also NWN2 doesn't feel at all like the sleek NWN1 product in terms of stability, resource handling and just in general feels sloppy in comparison.

Also in NWN1 you have easy access to all of the voice commands which are invaliable in multiplayer. In NWN2 you dont have all of theese and they have been made harder to access. That they have just copied all the voicesets from NWN1 just feels cheap as well.

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Haplose]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Also it is funny that many are writing that the grapchics in NWN2 are better. That is funny because my interpretation is the opposite. Sure if you are standing still in NWN2 looking down on an area from above it looks kind of ok. If you start moving though and fighting or opening up your inventory or bringing up any other parts of the user interface it looks ugly.

Also NWN2 doesn't feel at all like the sleek NWN1 product in terms of stability, resource handling and just in general feels sloppy in comparison.

Also in NWN1 you have easy access to all of the voice commands which are invaliable in multiplayer. In NWN2 you dont have all of theese and they have been made harder to access. That they have just copied all the voicesets from NWN1 just feels cheap as well.

Graphics.... let's see.
Outoor environments: NWN2 is better, no contest
Interiors: NWN is far more detailed and far more realistic. NWN2 wins, hands down again.
Character and creature models: NWN2 has more polygons, that's for sure. They don't always look good, but with talented modelers, some look great. NWN1 was very well designed given the limited tools, but still NWN2 wins.
Character animations: NWN1 wins.
Equipment (armours, weapons): NWN2 is more powerfull, but many default models are ugly. And cannot be easily cusomized in-game. There are some great looking clothing/weapons on the vault, but it's not always easy to use in-game, unless you specifically play on a server that uses it. NWN1 has nice looking equipment from the start and rich customization options even in-game, including tinting of various parts of armour.
Spell effects: Hmm.. I would call it a draw. Some are better in one, some better in the other. Sadly some of them are such major setbacks compared to NWN1.
Lasting spell effects/icons (buffs, debuffs, status effects): NWN1 wins, hands down. They are quite terrible in NWN2.
GUI: Okay, NWN1 is much better. But in NWN2 you can freely customize it's look and even functions. I currently use a mod which makes the GUI much pleasant to look it, more light, and streamlined. Though I still miss the large inventory icons from NWN1 and the inventory tetris.

In general the graphics of NWN2 are really better. Just more difficult to customize (except the GUI). And the animations are sadly sub-par.

I do agree that NWN1 feels less clumsy. The camera works much better and the GUI is much more streamlined, clean and pleasant to look at. Obviously it's also far less hardware demanding.

As for the Voice Commands, in NWN2 you can put them on your hotbar. How is this making them harder to access?

Modifié par Haplose, 06 septembre 2010 - 11:23 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

Well I agree with those that prefer NWN2. I was a part of the NWN community before NWN was released. I have played tons of mods and made large amounts of CC for NWN. I still have NWN installed and try and play it from time to time, but I just can't stand to look at the dated graphics.





When I switched to NWN2 I saw there were differences, but I was under no illusion that it would be NWN with newer graphcis. I accepted it for what it was and find I enjoy it much more than I did NWN.



I mainly play NWN2 MP on PWs, and I have No (Zero, Zip, Zilch) issues with it in its current state. Anyone who tells you NWN2 MP is crap is basing their opinion off older builds of the game



I do agree that reusing NWN1 voice assets did feel cheap.

[olivier leroux]

I like both and I have my pet peeves with both.

Storywise, I thought NWN's OC quite lame compared to classic CRPGs like BG2 and PS:Torment. There are some nice side quests and all but the main plot and the way it's told are lacking in so many regards. It just doesn't feel right to me to be a mercenary hero with no personal involvement watching the story of not-so-great NPCs (yeah, I know, some of you love Aribeth...*cough* ) and without the option to change the course of the story even if you see the outcome from miles away. Henchmen interaction could have been a lot more interesting, too. NWN2 makes amends in this regard and does it much better, more like BG2. (HotU was a cool Expansion for NWN though, IMO the better "OC" of NWN.)

NWN2 also beats NWN in terms of party control, at least if you're a fan of BG2. Much more fun.

Graphics are a matter of opinion. NWN2 is nice but IMO nowadays NWN isn't too far behind it if not superior, depending on your taste, with all the community made custom content and tilesets. I didn't like the character models in NWN2 too much. Even if character models in NWN are rougher around the edges and you can't modify their facial features, I think it's easier to make them stand out as individuals with the available custom content (heads, dynamic clothing system). NWN2 characters all look the same to me after a while.

Camera control in NWN2 was a big pet peeves of mine, I'm still not very fond of the way it's handled but I got over it, as well as some other ease-of-use issues I had to get accustomed to. The thing is, NWN2 is very customizable but that also means you might have to spend some time and thought on configuring it and adding GUI haks before you can live with it. Maybe I should have experimented with all the option tabs and resolutions right from the start instead of struggling through the first hours of the game...

Even if it can be annoying at times, too, I like the big size Tetris-style inventory system of NWN better than the Get-out-your-magnifying-glass- and My-sword-almost-looks-the-same-as-my-scroll-collection approach of NWN2. On the other hand, being able to customize the GUI (not just the look but the position of its elements), is a big plus for NWN2 (I just wish GUI haks were more compatible with each other and the various patch versions).

Due to its age, its dedicated community and the low difficulty level of building mods and creating CC for NWN, naturally the pool of available content for NWN is still a lot bigger than that of NWN2 and this is what makes NWN really stand out. That's not to say NWN2 hasn't got great custom content, too, but there's still so much to see for me in NWN...

NWN2 needs a lot of resources and my - admittedly short - experience with NWN2 multiplayer is that it's quite unstable and laggy, at least on my three-year-old machine (if that's got anything to do with it).

You might have guessed by now that I tend to prefer NWN over NWN2 but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the benefits of NWN2. Keep in mind it's all just opinion and personal preference, no bashing. Personally, I think a topic about which one is the better game doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm very glad both games have their supporters who keep them alive.


EDIT: Oh, and if it's only about the single player OC without expansions and without CC, I can totally relate to your liking NWN2 better than NWN, Vaalyah.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 06 septembre 2010 - 12:05 .

[Aathis]

I am playing both games at the moment; in the early stages of both. So far I find NWN2 to be superior.

The story, writing and voice acting in NWN2 are very much better. I find the NWN1 story very bland and unengaging; I find myself plodding through the dungeons like as if I am doing the hoovering at home; and I am not a fan of the personality or voicing of Aribeth. In fact there is a gooey sanctimoniousness about the whole thing.

The graphics of NWN2 are so much better; I find the graphics of NWN1 awfully drab and the animations poor.

The camera in NWN2 does take quite a bit of tweaking to get right and I dont like the character sheet - way too clunky. Also the default hotbar is not great but I got a good mod for that.



Seems to me there are different kinds of players in the community. I'm not a D&D person or a modder so I dont have the quibbles of that community; I dont mind about the kind of complaints nicethugbert has. I am a gamer who enjoys RPGs. I want an engaging story and characters and a sense of openness if possible like in the Elder Scrolls (especially Morrowind). Neither NWN games has the openness but NWN2 has a good story and characters (so far). From what I read there are even better stories in the community modules.



Also to those weary of this topic not all of us have been around for years. I for one as a new player am glad Vaalyah started this thread and I have found it interesting to read everyone's opinions.

[kamalpoe]

Whatever. They are not the same game.

[olivier leroux]

Aathis wrote...
NWN2 has a good story and characters (so far). From what I read there are even better stories in the community modules.

Remember, that is true for both games. Like I said, if you put NWN2 against NWN just by comparing the first official single player campaigns, and from a storytelling point of view, NWN is not likely to convince (and regarding the graphics, of course the default campaign looks bad, it's eight years old, heh). But most people who like NWN and keep playing it don't do it because of the OC. To tell the truth I didn't even complete the first Chapter of the OC before I started to play community mods (I had a second look at the OC only two years later, after playing innumerous great custom modules). A lot of community mods have not only much better stories but also better graphics and AI and whatnot. And you'll surely find a mod that suits your playstyle preferences more than the OC.

I can relate to all your criticsm and why you like NWN2 but if you really want to give NWN a chance, don't judge it by the first OC. You're going to miss out on everything that makes NWN stand out. If I had done that, I'd have never gotten into NWN in the first place (I'm no hardcore P&P player or D&D fanatic either). Luckily I didn't and had three years of fun with it (with no intention to leave it yet).

Modifié par olivier leroux, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[Banshe]

Aathis wrote...

From what I read there are even better stories in the community modules.

Also to those weary of this topic not all of us have been around for years. I for one as a new player am glad Vaalyah started this thread and I have found it interesting to read everyone's opinions.

1. I am glad you are aware of the custom stuff like modules and PWs. Definitely worth checking out.

2. I wasn't saying to censor these conversations. Instead, they should be condensed into a single thread. If you are interested in reading opinions, the sticky thread would have those opinions in them. If you are interested in commenting yourself, you would be more than welcome to do so yourself.

Heck, this thread could be stickied and all future conversation on the topic could be put into this thread.

[dunniteowl]

And, it's possible it might just be at some near point in time. Sticked, that is.

dno

[SFF19]

Easily NWN2.

- Much better plot, especially MotB.
- You can have an ACTUAL PARTY.  And unlike the original game, the sequel's party members all have fleshed out, believeable personalities. (Khelgar, Neeshka, Elanee and Safiya stand out.)
- Combat seemed more...well, well put together.
- More custimization (alchemy, crafting, prestige classes etc)
- Better, more varied equipment, spells and items.
- Better voice acting.
- A good sense of humor. (NWN was rather melodramatic at times)

And others I may have forgotten.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I pre-ordered NWN back in the day because they had promised that it would have simultaneous releases for Windows, Macintosh, and Linux and would include a toolset for constructing your own adventures.



Instead when it was released it was only released for Windows. When it was over a year later released for the Macintosh - my personal platform of choice - there was no toolset and never has been. NWN may run fine on Windows laptops now, but the IBM ThinkPad I had access to which was a high-end laptop at the time, could not play NWN without terrible lagging.



So I didn't start playing NWN for two years, and when I did I remained disappointed in the broken promises. Of course it didn't help that even when Mac versions were eventually released they were not patched as actively as the Windows versions. Basically the Mac community was screwed when we were promised that we would be treated as peers.



As far as the game itself went, I did play through it twice and played through the expansions as well. I own both Windows and Mac versions. I was never pleased with the single-character focus and the pre-built henchmen. I wanted to build my own party of adventurers, but could not. I also never cared for the UI. I ended up trying to play through with as little involvement of henchmen as possible, which is counter to my normal style of play. I remained irritated enough with the broken toolset promise that I never modded it. I am also anti-social enough that I never participated in MP or PW. And I did not have internet access at the time except through dialup, so I never downloaded any community content.



With NWN2 I expected that the Windows version would be the only truly fully supported platform and the toolset would remain Windows only. I was right on both counts. I find the NWN2 UI better than NWN. But I find the forced party members to be little improvement over the NWN henchmen. I started working with the toolset long before completing the NWN2 OC and I have yet to complete MotB. I feel that SoZ is a significant improvement over the NWN2 OC and MotB.



I think that it is very unlikely that I will go back and replay NWN again. If I was feeling nostalgic I'd rather replay Baldur's Gate.



Regards

[Aathis]

olivier leroux wrote...

Remember, that is true for both games. Like I said, if you put NWN2 against NWN just by comparing the first official single player campaigns, and from a storytelling point of view, NWN is not likely to convince (and regarding the graphics, of course the default campaign looks bad, it's eight years old, heh). But most people who like NWN and keep playing it don't do it because of the OC. To tell the truth I didn't even complete the first Chapter of the OC before I started to play community mods (I had a second look at the OC only two years later, after playing innumerous great custom modules). A lot of community mods have not only much better stories but also better graphics and AI and whatnot. And you'll surely find a mod that suits your playstyle preferences more than the OC.

I can relate to all your criticsm and why you like NWN2 but if you really want to give NWN a chance, don't judge it by the first OC. You're going to miss out on everything that makes NWN stand out. If I had done that, I'd have never gotten into NWN in the first place (I'm no hardcore P&P player or D&D fanatic either). Luckily I didn't and had three years of fun with it (with no intention to leave it yet).

Now that's helpful advice. Can you recommend a favorite NWN mod? Something with a good yarn and interesting characters? I will put the OC aside and give it a go.
How about NWN2...are the community modules good too?
Thanks

[Aathis]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Also in NWN1 you have easy access to all of the voice commands which are invaliable in multiplayer. In NWN2 you dont have all of theese and they have been made harder to access. That they have just copied all the voicesets from NWN1 just feels cheap as well.

I had this problem as well when I started but if you press 'v' the voice commands menu comes up and you can hot bar the icons you want to use often. Also there is a mod that will give you a panel of 5 hotbars which is great; it's on the vault. Agree about the voicesets.

[Vaalyah]

@ Haplose: I never played Crysis, not my type of game, at all. However, to me NWN2 runs perfectly... Ok, my computer is a 2-months-old beast, but I run it in 1920x1080 resolution with all set to max details.



@ everyone: I am reading tons of tutorial about the toolset... I think you are right in many of the things you have said. I was reading today about inner area and I got shocked by comparing the Sims2 building tool with this. And Sims2 is a game thought for simulating life, so the main part of the game is that. Not building abilities. While NWN series is famous also for the toolset.

Not only building, but also camera controls are far better in Sims2 (and this, believe me, is almost incredible!!!)



@ Dunniteowl: thank you very much. I had really appreciate your kind thought :-) However, in my defence, I can say that I didn't even imagine that this could be a so "delicate" topic... o_O



@Banshe: excuse me, but I haven't understood. Can you tell me, please, why people should get so angry for speaking about a game preference? It is like saying "I do prefer mountain" versus "I do prefer seaside". It is just chat... we are not dealing with real problems like politics, over-populations or pollution in the world... So which is the problem about asking for an opinion? I read also in other posts that this seems to be a really delicate subject, but I still can't understand why...

Sorry for sounding stupid...



@Superfly: no, I never played multiplayer :_( because I don't have a fast internet connection... to say the truth, actually, I moved to a new house about 3 month ago and we don't even have THE TELEPHONE!!! I am connected by a 3G internet key, but of course, I can't use it for playing on line :-(



@ Haplose again: same idea for graphic. Due also to better hardware, NWN2 is the winner. And I DO NOT miss the inventory tetris :-D

However, I don't like that you have just 2 choreography for spells and... 2 set of sounds... ' I simply can't understand which spell my PC is casting by looking at her. Moreover, turn undead sounds THE SAME as half of the spells!!!

[Banshe]

@ Vaalyah: I can't really explain "why" it is that way, only that it is/was that way. People who don't like NWN2 attack NWN2. People who do like NWN2 defend NWN2. Tempers generally increase over time until they boil over. And the same roughly goes for NWN1.



The silly thing is even explaining the arguments that occur could set off a new round of arguments. That is why the less that is said, the better.



I think if you want to know, you should look in the old Bioware forums rather than pushing for people to include it in this thread. It seems that, in your own words, you do understand that it is a "delicate subject". Therefore you should understand that it wouldn't be such a great idea to reincarnate it here.

[Vaalyah]

Sorry, another post, but again, due to "overcrowded answers"



@ Hellfire: since my computer is broken (I am waiting for the new gpu, it is 2 months old, so I am under warranty but I have to wait A LOT!!!) I'm playing HotU in the old computer... I was totally wordless when I saw again NWN graphic... I mean, I'd known it was UGLIER than NWN2... but only after seeing it again, I understand HOW MUCH!



@Olivier: could you please explain to me what is a GUI and which are (and what do they do) these mods you are speaking about? I am curious! :-) However, yes, I am speaking to strickly related plot-aspect. NWN2 has better NPCs, better plot (NWN plot is totally predictable), better side quests and a bigger variety of styles (ie: the only quest different from "go and kill" in NWN was the... avoiding spoiler... when you have to judge in a town)



@ Aathis: same reason for which I prefer NWN2 over the first one. Plot and NPCs! But I need you to suggest me the mod you are using for improving the interface :-D



@ Olivier: in my opinion, if I buy a game, I want the game to be GOOD. Of course there is the toolset and many people are creating interesting modules, but I have spent money on the game, my money has gone to Atari so I expect that Atari has provided some nice hours of enjoyment in the game. There are people who don't even have an internet connection (me too... it is so dreadful that I am unable to download modules on my own, so I have to ask friends' help) and of course they have bought the OC and want that the OC would be good. The modules and the community is a plus for the game. A big plus, indeed. But not the basic. IMHO



@Banshe: nice idea, I'll do a trip to the old forum. However, it was not my intention to create a flame war between the two factions... I hope the discussion could grow without problems :-)

[painofdungeoneternal]

Which is better is more to do with the things each community has made. Those who only deal with one game only compare official to community. There are some amazing worlds for NWN1, which are really games in there own right, but the same can be said for NWN2. There also is a lot more things for NWN1 community wise, well it's 8+ years old compared to 3, but there are things in both games you just have to use and play and a lot of the content for NWN2 is at the same quality level you get from the official developers ( or higher ).

Basically my point is, if you decide only one game works, and one game sucks, you are missing out on what each half of this one larger community is doing. You should go and get both games. There are great modules made for both, each has reasons of course for use, and i can say on a daily basis I discover, or uncover, entire new areas in which i can mod NWN2. The flaws of NWN2 ( and NWN1 where the same is happening ), well each week another is addressed or mitigated or improved. We both have remarkable devs, peachykeen doing the graphics improvements of nwn1, and skywing recreating entire chunks of nwn2. We have Project Q finally upping the quality level of the NWN1 models, and for NWN2 we have hellfire who has been top notch models from the start. We have PW's in NWN with 60+ players, and we have PW's in NWN2 with the same.

Which game is played will seesaw one way or the other as amazing projects are released. Don't limit yourself, be aware of both and make sure you revisit and watch both as they improve. The NWN games are all about community, and each has a very dedicated community. Don't go and try to say how one or the other does not work because of feature X sucks, i can state that feature X has some creative person focused on making it a non issue. And don't go comparing either game on launch, or ignoring each games community, or try to say one or the other is better because of mere quantity when both have more than enough to keep any gamer busy for years.

Modifié par dunniteowl, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[Aathis]

Caio Vaalyah,

GUI means 'graphic user interface'. You can find the hotbar mod here:

http://nwvault.ign.c...2UI.Detail&id=9

You will probably need the highres version. You can left click and drag the panel to where you want it.

Do you like HotU (plot & characters)?