177 réponses à ce sujet

[Dynamomark]

NWN 2 - better single player

NWN 1 - better multiplayer

[Aathis]

@ painofdungeoneternal Excellent post that convinces me to put aside my complaints about the NWN1 OC and its graphics. Thanks.

[olivier leroux]

Vaalyah wrote...
@Olivier: could you please explain to me what is a GUI and which are (and what do they do) these mods you are speaking about? I am curious! :-)

Like Aathis said, GUI stands for Graphical User Interface, that is elements like hotbars, map, inventory window etc.

"Mods" in NWN and NWN2 is short for "modules" - which is different from mods meaning "modifications" in other games. Modules are stand-alone adventures or campaigns, stories that are independent of the OC and were created by community members with NWN's toolset. There are short ones you can complete in less than an hour and epic ones for 40+ hours of gameplay. As has been said, a lot of them are better than the OC. To get an impression, you might want to scan the list of top-rated community modules on the NWN Vault (And there's one for NWN2, too).

Vaalyah wrote...
@ Olivier: in my opinion, if I buy a game, I want the game to be GOOD. Of course there is the toolset and many people are creating interesting modules, but I have spent money on the game, my money has gone to Atari so I expect that Atari has provided some nice hours of enjoyment in the game. There are people who don't even have an internet connection (me too... it is so dreadful that I am unable to download modules on my own, so I have to ask friends' help) and of course they have bought the OC and want that the OC would be good. The modules and the community is a plus for the game. A big plus, indeed. But not the basic. IMHO

As a sidenote, your money might have gone to Atari but it was BioWare who created NWN. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Anyway, I take a different stance. IMO, if you do some research on what NWN actually is before buying it, you don't buy it as a game but as a tool, an engine to play games with, to use for online roleplaying sessions and to create your own adventures with. I tend to see the Official Campaign more as an extensive  demo that showcases the engine's features and potential but that's just the start of it. NWN is all about the option to create your own modules and share them with the community. That's its main selling point, not just a bonus. Without these features and without BioWare's continuing support of the community, NWN probably would have been long forgotten already. Instead it's alive and kicking even after eight years. That's not just a lucky coincidence though, it's what NWN was created for right from the start.

With that in mind you can't really compare it to CRPGs who are just single player campaigns and nothing else (and can therefor easily excel at their genre). Believe me, NWN would be worth every cent you paid for it even if there weren't any Official Campaigns included. Provided you are looking for the things it can offer you (which are different from your average single player CRPG and certainly not in the vein of another Baldur's Gate).

(The same goes for NWN2, btw, although NWN2 is quite good as a single player campaign, too, and on the downside a little more complicated to create modules with or play online, I believe.)

Aathis wrote...
Now that's helpful advice. Can you recommend a favorite NWN mod? Something with a good yarn and interesting characters? I will put the OC aside and give it a go.

Like I said, the second expansion "Hordes of the Underdark" is a lot better than the OC already (I hope you own it since most community modules require you to have both expansions installed). As for comunity modules, my personal favorite is the Prophet series by Baldecaran but there are so many great ones and depending on your tastes you might like others better. If you'd explain about your preferences, what kind of games and stories you like (e.g. Heroic, Dark and Twisted, Horror, Humor, Out the box and so on), what classes you prefer, what you don't like in a game etc. myself or other community members would be glad to be of assistance and help you find the right module for you. Let's take this to the PMs or the NWN Modules Forum though where you can ask for suggestions, in order not to derail this thread.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:51 .

[Haplose]

Aathis wrote...

How about NWN2...are the community modules good too?

Sure they are good. Some are great even

My personal favourites so far are Trinity by E.C Patterson and The Maimed Gods Saga (TGMS for short) by Tiberius.
The second one assumes that you play a cleric though, so it may not be everyone's cup of tea.

Out of the more action oriented modules I very much enjoyed Moonshadows Chapter 1 by Alex "Hugie" Hugon and The Last of the Danaan by J.E. McKellar (the latter being a Ranger module).

[Banshe]

Dynamomark wrote...

NWN 2 - better single player
NWN 1 - better multiplayer

There are some amazing NWN1 single player modules (quite a few of them). There are also some amazing NWN2 multiplayer PWs. Not to mention that painofdungeoneternal has made a reworked DMFI which will revolutionize DMing in NWN2.

So they actually both have great single player and multiplayer.


@ Vaalyah: I'm glad you understand. This thread should be informative rather than destructive.

[SuperFly_2000]

I just think it is sad that NWN2 didn't "take over" like it was supposed to. It is even more sad that most PW staffs didn't realise this before it was to late.

For me that only is playing multiplayer and on PW's it was sad to see many perfectly good NWN1 servers getting the final blow when the staff decided to pull the plug and try some mediocre NWN2 server that in the end just got all players to become WoW subscribers.

Ok then...probably some NWN2 PW's are ok then...and if you can bear with the game itself I guess you can pretty much have a similar experience. The thing is that the already weakened community was now seriously divided also.

I am of course not blaming all of this on NWN2. Most possible NWN players are probably playing a different game altogether and probably another MMO. It was just that NWN2 came at a bad time where the NWN1 online community was already started to get weaker...so I guess it was the final blow.

To show on this divide I can say that NWN1 has more than double the amount of online players at any given time than NWN2....and it is not turning in favor of NWN2 unfortunately for you...yes...NWN2 is dying faster than NWN1...

Concerning single player it is probably about the same ratio in activity. NWN2 had a surge upon release with many sold copies. It was the "buy-play through-shelfe" people that bought it and what Atari/Obsidian aimed for unfortunately was this. Not the harcore gamers or multiplayer ones.

That Bioware didn't produce any multiplayer game anymore didn't help me as well. It was even more sad to see the humungus amounts of single player games they released...just waiting for something I could actually play and build in.

Nowdays Bioware is way too big and hardcore fantasy roleplaying is all out the window. Now they are finally realising they got to jump on the multiplayer train but when they do so they do it through making a WoW clone (like SW:ToR) instead of revolutianizing the industry as they probably can.

[Hellfire_RWS]

Do you play NWN2 Superfly, and if so which PWs?

[SuperFly_2000]

Not regularly no. I tried it a couple of times when it was new. A day or two. That was enough to make up my mind about it. I knew there and then what it would be like but many didn't.

I actually tried a year later more or less just to confirm that I was right.

Doesn't matter really what PW it was as it was the whole game engine I was dissapointed with.

Pretty late to change my mind now anyway.

Almost stopped playing NWN alltogether since a month ago or so unfortunately...

Hoping for the new Neverwinter online game...for what its worth....

Have had a fantasy to get time to make an NWN1 PW module from scratch but that will remain a dream for now...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:23 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
Almost stopped playing NWN alltogether since a month ago or so unfortunately...

Getting kind of burnt out huh? I know the feeling, that’s why I tend to jump around. I play some mass effect, some Unreal 3, some ARMA2, but I always come back to NWN / 2 games.

I am looking forward to the new Diablo though.

[SuperFly_2000]

It is just that there are no people playing on the server I like the best.

There are a couple of other servers that are kind of ok also but most are too much RP and too few people...(which is kind of not a good combination).

Some servers I have "played through" if you can say that for PW's....thinking to revisit some of them maybe...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:19 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

I always suggest Avlis for NWN1, was my favorite server.
I don't know how much of the NWN2 products you own, but if you have all of them, I would more than happy to adventure with you on Sea Of Dragons. I know.... I know... NWN2 is not your thing. That was jsut a Big if and a maybe thrown in. 

[AndarianTD]

Aathis wrote...
Now that's helpful advice. Can you recommend a favorite NWN mod? Something with a good yarn and interesting characters? I will put the OC aside and give it a go. How about NWN2...are the community modules good too?
Thanks

There are a couple of resources available for people interested in this topic, such as the NWVault Reviewer's Guild. Another is the Academy for Modding Excellence (AME), which annually awards the Golden Dragon Awards for excellence in modding and adventure module development for NWN and NWN2. Here's the list of finalists and award winners for the last several years:

NWN Golden Dragon Award Finalists and Winners
NWN2 Golden Dragon Award Finalists and Winners

Voting for the NWN 2009 GDA finals is currently underway. The 2009 finalists should be able to be announced shortly, and winners probably sometime in October.

Since this is a NWN2 forum thread, I would also like to take the opportunity to invite members of the NWN2 community to participate in the AME. For the last two years we've been struggling with a shortage of members for the NWN2 awards, and without some new volunteers there is a very real danger that we may not be able to do a 2009 awards cycle for NWN2 this year. So if you play NWN2 modules and would like to help, please feel free to contact me here by PM and I'll put you in touch with this year's officers.

Andarian - Member, Current Site Admin, and former Chairman and Vice Chairman, The Academy for Modding Excellence

Modifié par AndarianTD, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Not regularly no. I tried it a couple of times when it was new. A day or two. That was enough to make up my mind about it. I knew there and then what it would be like but many didn't.

I actually tried a year later more or less just to confirm that I was right.

Doesn't matter really what PW it was as it was the whole game engine I was dissapointed with.

Pretty late to change my mind now anyway.

Almost stopped playing NWN alltogether since a month ago or so unfortunately...

Hoping for the new Neverwinter online game...for what its worth....

Have had a fantasy to get time to make an NWN1 PW module from scratch but that will remain a dream for now...

So even if skywing redoes the engine for NWN2 ( in the same manner peachykeen has redone nwn1 shaders ), it's still too late. ( he is doing things i would have told you a few years ago only the devs can do, right now he is recreating the scripting engine and his main taak is recreating the combat routines. He has already redone networking, and has done minor touches to the camera to deal with rubberbanding. )

[The Fred]

To be fair, though, NWN2 when it was new was nothing like what it is now. As with NWN1, there is a bunch of awesome community content, but (arguably) more importantly, loads of patches which fixed the more obvious gaping inadequecies in the game engine.

[AndarianTD]

Aathis wrote...
Now that's helpful advice. Can you recommend a favorite NWN mod? Something with a good yarn and interesting characters?

Just to mention it (since it's a little off-topic on the NWN2 forums), you might find my own NWN module series, Sanctum of the Archmage, to be of interest (see my .sig). On storytelling and having interesting characters in particular it's gotten consistently high praise from players.

[Vaalyah]

@Aathis: thank you. I was guessing about that GUI for a while...

NWN: I played the OC and I HATE IT. Too much boring, too foreseeable, too much "go and kill, next area, go and kill, repeat till the end of the game"... I totally lacked all I was searching in the game (NPCs interactions and interesting plot, more related to rpg and few with killing! As I use to say, if I wanted a H&S, I would have bought a H&S!). So I didn't get after the first hour of SotU. About HotU, I am finishing Undermountain just now (I hope to finish it today, I should be missing just one area of the 3rd floor) so it is a bit early to say what I can think of the game. However, Deekin is adorable and I enjoy very much he's quarrelling with Sharwyn! So in this sense (NPCs presence) is far better than OC!



@Olivier: first, thank you for explanation. I always supposed mods = modifications and modules = modules (that is the kind of abbreviation I usually use).

Second, for sure you are right: you pay for all the pieces: game, toolset, etc. But since here the internet connection sucks, almost wherever in the Country (long, long, LONG story), those who can play on line are really few. Also, downloading a module takes me forever! In the end, since I am not able to enjoy this aspect, at least I would like a decent OC plot! It reminds me of BG2. Sure, you could play it on line, and it was a sort of revolution, few games at the time could, but the OC is wonderful, and that, in my opinion, is the way. As soon as my computer will be ok, I will finish NWN2. I love it. I am also learning about the toolset and probably I would look for a way to play on line. But I still love the OC!



@ Banshe: my idea was just that. Sharing opinions for curiosity and maybe being able to make others try again the game that has not been liked with a new optic in mind. I never wanted to create a "destructive" topic



@Superfly: I suppose that one of the reason why NWN has still more multiplayers than NWN2 could also be that not everyone has a computer able to run NWN2... it is more probable that a person has a computer able to manage NWN than NWN2... so this person, if s/he plays on line, would more probably play NWN than NWN2.



@painof...: what do you mean by "even if skywind redoes the engine for NWN2"? who has redone the engine? and why?

[painofdungeoneternal]

Skywing has created via NWNX a replacement for a lot of engine features, networking for example, and is now redoing the scripting engine so it runs faster and uses his code instead of biowares/obsidians. That is redoing the engine and what he has released so far fixes issues for not just MP play, but also in single player.



He also has a stand alone client for DM's that lets you log into a world without using the nwn2main program, it's all text based but the map window provided shows what is going on in game, and there is a 3d view as well using NWN2 models. Basically he recreated the game client, it still needs the game but it's a lot lighter on overhead and lets you play NWN2 like it's a text based MUD. ( And if you are a dm you can be in game while you are in toolset without a massive load of 2 programs, and can chat with players or test things, i am pretty sure this tool could be used to let even blind people enjoy NWN2 modules with the proper tools since you can click on things, do dialogs. )



As for other things, the NWN2 client extension was done to enable redoing the networking, if you use it and the server has the networking upgrade, it fixes transition load speed and crashes, as well as adding many new features. Some things recreated are the pathing code which causes rubber banding when you play, and the resource loader which is much faster which makes areas load up to 10 times faster ( if they are packed with stuff that is ). Of course he has added macros, workarounds for creature abilities, bug fixes.



This is all more than just mods to the game, this is gutting the games code, replacing entire systems that don't work with ones that work better via the same tricks that let Nwnx modify the server program without actually touching it.



Note all of this is actually released to one degree or another, even the scripting replacement works for the portion of the functions he has implemented so far, it's not just some ideas he's planning on doing.

[kamalpoe]

So skywing has fixed the movement rubber banding issue?

[painofdungeoneternal]

I would not call it completely fixed, however he has made it a lot better and i've not really noticed it as an issue in a while. It was very bad when i was beta testing 1.23. Right now it's more like how it was in NWN1, which has the exact same design for movement. ( Note that rubber banding is a price paid for responsiveness, skywing just made the client when it moves somewhere, to follow the same rules as the server does, so they match up, so when it's all done and you release your move, you don't end up in an illegal spot which the server has to correct )



However my point is that things like this are areas which can be fixed in NWN2, even things thought impossible and dev only, are things which are being worked on by those completely capable of fixing engine issues.

[kamalpoe]

You should inform Eguintir. He's having rubber banding problems.

[SuperFly_2000]

Vaalyah wrote...
@Superfly: I suppose that one of the reason why NWN has still more multiplayers than NWN2 could also be that not everyone has a computer able to run NWN2... it is more probable that a person has a computer able to manage NWN than NWN2... so this person, if s/he plays on line, would more probably play NWN than NWN2.

Many are trying to find a single reason for this. I think it is because of many reasons and most importantly because the game is poorly programmed and developed to start with compared to NWN1.


@Painofdungeoneternal,
that is why I also think that the problem is not about "fixing issues" but rather redoing the whole game which I don't think any single private person has the possibility to do.

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 08 septembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Banshe]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Vaalyah wrote...
@Superfly: I suppose that one of the reason why NWN has still more multiplayers than NWN2 could also be that not everyone has a computer able to run NWN2... it is more probable that a person has a computer able to manage NWN than NWN2... so this person, if s/he plays on line, would more probably play NWN than NWN2.

Many are trying to find a single reason for this. I think it is because of many reasons and most importantly because the game is poorly programmed and developed to start with compared to NWN1.


@Painofdungeoneternal,
that is why I also think that the problem is not about "fixing issues" but rather redoing the whole game which I don't think any single private person has the possibility to do.

Many people, myself included, think that there is a single reason: herd mentality. If a critical mass of people appeared today and tried it out, they would all stay. But there is too little understanding in the wide world about NWN2.

In fact there is too little understanding in the wide world about NWN1 and NWN2. Most gamers don't get it. Before I embraced NWN2, I had embraced NWN1. We had to deal with all kind of nonsense and misinformation about NWN1 too. Everyone understood that the NWN1 OC was bad. But most didn't understand that the toolset, MP capability and the DM Client were very, very good revolutionary features in the gaming universe.

Edit: I remember reading a thread in another forum where people were comparing different OCs for different games: Morrowind, NWN1 etc. It was meant to be a funny thread but it made me so angry. The people in that thread didn't understand what NWN1 is/was.

Modifié par Banshe, 08 septembre 2010 - 11:52 .

[Shallina]

NWN2 is a direct evolution of NWN1. Many things got improved. New thing were added.

But some were left behind. Like mount for exemple.

As a modding platform, NWN2 is clearly more powerfull, but it comes with a price, you need a little knowledge with programming and devellopment in order to work with NWN2, while with NWN1 a complete beginniner could have result. With NWN2 if you are a complete begginer you'll need some lvl up.
NWN1 really looks dated nowadays. Poeple that think NWN1 graphic are better can only be ppoeple who don't have a computer powerfull enought for NWN2.

Also if you wants to play with mount, you don't have the choice, NWN1 is your only solution.

Some poeple said NWN1 better than NWN2 beceause with NWN1 you can do everything with tiles. Don't listen to them, they are not serious poeple. Anyone a little serious in their work will tell you that making something great with the exterior tool area or with tileset require the same amount of work. A good tileset area is very time consuming as well.

NWN2 got the autodownloader for MP and persistant world, that feature is awesome.

NWN vsNWN2 ? it depend on the feature you are looking for. If the feature you are looking for are in NWN2? then NWN2 is better. For the feature that didn't make it in NWN2,  NWN1 is better. For the feature that exist in NWN2 and not in NWN1, NWN2 is better.

If your computer is good enought for NWN and not good enought for NWN2, then NWN1 will be better as well.

they are both good game, if you plan to play them both start with NWN. If your computer is good enought for NWN2, you'll have a hard time switching back except if you like "lego char". NWN was one oof the first RPG in 3D, and all the 3D model reflect it.

Modifié par Shallina, 08 septembre 2010 - 12:09 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Vaalyah wrote...
@Superfly: I suppose that one of the reason why NWN has still more multiplayers than NWN2 could also be that not everyone has a computer able to run NWN2... it is more probable that a person has a computer able to manage NWN than NWN2... so this person, if s/he plays on line, would more probably play NWN than NWN2.

Many are trying to find a single reason for this. I think it is because of many reasons and most importantly because the game is poorly programmed and developed to start with compared to NWN1.


@Painofdungeoneternal,
that is why I also think that the problem is not about "fixing issues" but rather redoing the whole game which I don't think any single private person has the possibility to do.

The single person is skywing, i don't think you are reading what i am writing, he "redid" the networking, he redid the resource loader, he is redoing the scripting engine now, how many more things are left for him to redo before it's just a new game. You are basing things on what you think is possible, and we have someone right now doing the impossible. He is not fixing minor issues, he is chucking an entire part of the game and replacing it which sounds like what you are saying needs to be done.

Once that is done, yes the game WILL be redone. ( He is saying the server limit will go from 96 players to 4096 for example and we will be able to run much larger PW's ) Note that he is looking for someone, who he can trust not to create exploits, who can program well, who is willing to port the same things into NWN1 because the problems he is fixing by and large are shared across both games.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 08 septembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[olivier leroux]

The whole problem with comparing NWN and NWN2 is that most people who give their judgement - and I don't exclude myself there - are not really up to date on the progress in both communities at the same time. And everyone is imposing their own standards, what's good for one might be horrible for the next guy (heck, there even are people who love NWN's OC). So all judgement is based on (often limited) personal experience and on personal preference.

Reading about different opinions is always interesting and inspiring. Just don't fall into the trap of believing anyone telling you NWN is better than NWN2 or NWN2 is better than NWN.

*stating the obvious, once again, heh*

Modifié par olivier leroux, 08 septembre 2010 - 06:47 .