177 réponses à ce sujet

[avado]

I was gonna say something, but then i changed my mind, but this forum doesnt seem to share a DELETE button. 
Peace

Modifié par avado, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[The Fred]

Shallina wrote...
Also if you wants to play with mount, you don't have the choice, NWN1 is your only solution.

Actually I think the RWS guys are working on mounts for NWN2. Yes, NWN1 has them as standard resources, but to be honest the scripting which was including is a tag lacking so you need to do a lot of work with them anyway (especially if you want it so players can own and buy horses and things, rather than just leaving a horse somewhere and letting them ride it).

Some poeple said NWN1 better than NWN2 beceause with NWN1 you can do everything with tiles. Don't listen to them, they are not serious poeple. Anyone a little serious in their work will tell you that making something great with the exterior tool area or with tileset require the same amount of work. A good tileset area is very time consuming as well.

It's true that making outdoor, tileset areas in NWN1 is a LOT quicker and easier. In NWN1, I enjoyed making areas. Now, I find it a lot of hard work. However, they do look much better in NWN2, you just can't beat the heightmapping and texturing.

To be honset, at the end of the day, each have a couple of features that the other doesn't, but to my mind, NWN2 has more features that NWN1 doesn't, and they are more important ones. In terms of graphics, I don't consider them one of the biggest issues, but after playing NWN2, NWN1 does look blocky. That said, I think I actually prefer BG's graphics to either of them. Back to the good old pre-3D days, I say!

[Shallina]

I have BG made inside NWN2. It's not complete. Me too I prefered BG to NWN1 and 2.

But now that I have BG in NWN2, I can't play the original BG anymore. So I asked myself, what did BG have that the other don't ?
Ambiant ! Sound Ambiant. Bg has awesome sound, wich make the game a real world wich is alive. NPC that wanders around and has nothing to do with th eplayer and so on.

In Bg you are just a wanderer that goes thrue a world that Belong to its local, while NWN1 and NWN2 world are 100% focused around the player. We reproduced every NPC and their activity in the BG remake, We took the original sound back and imported it.

I can tell you now with no doubt. 3D is way superior to anithing you could dream in 2D like BG.

When you feel that 3D isn't on par with 2D, it's only for one reason : The dev are lazy and didn't do half of what they did for scripting in BG or BG2 to give life to their world.

The only modern game in my mind that got this kind of attention is WoW. Their 13 000 000 players didn't come without reason.

Modifié par Shallina, 09 septembre 2010 - 09:09 .

[The Fred]

Actually, I was saying I prefered the graphics in BG. Yes, I like it as a game, too, but that's not what I was talking about.

Also, in BG1 at least, the scripting wasn't much to talk of since it was both a fairly primitive system (compared with NWScript, anyway) and *was* a bit lazily written. All mages in the game, for example, except for some of the key unique ones, used one of like 6 or 7 basic mage AI scripts (arguably NWN has one AI script for everyone, but it's written to handle everything, whereas these weren't), which is why the old Mirror Image -> Horror -> Magic Missile combo was so common from the first mage you fight right through to the city itself.

Anyway we're not here to talk about BG, we're here to compare NWN1 with NWN2, something which I think has kinda been done to death now. ;-)

Modifié par The Fred, 09 septembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Shallina]

You don't understand what I am saying. You think you prefer BG graphic, but it's not the graphic, it's all what they did that aren't related to graphic, or engine that they didn't do in the others game that give this superior feeling to BG.



Try a 3D game with all the amount of work they did in BG to bring their area alive, and you'll understand how lazy they have becomme. the problem isn't 3D vs 2D.



Is that most of the recent game like NWN, NWN2, ME ME2, DAO are "minimal" as soon as you go of the track. While BG and BG2 weren't. And that's making a really hudge difference in what the playe ris feeling when playing them. So people are saying it's 3D vs 2D in 2D the game feel alive while in 3D it isn't.



Let me tell you something, it's not related to 2D or 3D. It's related of the amount of work you put in the "ambiant".



A 3d game with those ambiant polished as much as it was in BG, is really something else and breathtaking.

[The Fred]

No, I actually do prefer the BG graphics. I normally play with the sound off so it's not the ambient sound. It's the fact that there are loads of little people moving around on hand-drawn backgrounds that makes it look really nice. It might not have the capabilities of producing the visual treats some people have done in NWN2 areas, but the characters I much prefer. You can't see that much detail but that what you can see looks right, rather than clunky, chunky NWN1 3D or slightly off, "smoothed out" NWN2/DA 3D. 2D > 3D still.

[Shallina]

You don't even see the char in BG.... there is a little pixel for the head, 2 little pixel for the arm. I am glad we moved on from those graphics.

[BigfootNZ]

From a game stand point and not looking at anything bellow the hood...

I like both, I loved NWN and HotU and i love NWN2 and MotB/SoZ each has merits each has issues. Being someone whos from the generation that grew up from Pong and Pac Man to todays games, i can easily enjoy a game, with or without good graphics and I still think NWN1 has good graphics, its just that the OC was made for systems that had long since retired at the time it released. Always toyed with the idea of rehashing nwn1's graphics but given the complex nature and time that would have taken solo... it wasnt worth the effort.

From a perspective of under the hood...

I like both... what a surprise , There are things i could do in NWN1 that ill never be able to do in NWN2 and vice versa. Having the emitters for particles attached to an actual model with options like gravity, and particals sticking to environmental objects was damn fun to play with in NWN1 and gave you the ability to make some VERY amazing things, but NWN2 rays are great... although thats about all i like about the particle system in NWN2, the rest of it is VERY limited in the basic particle systems compared to NWN1.

NWN2s lack of transparency without fudging things is annoying, but its normal mapping is wonderful (Half of NWN2's problems to my mind is sloppy artwork, they didnt even try on some things). GUI customisation is great for NWN2, I tried in NWN1 and got some interesting alterations but it was just cosmetic. Tinting is overated, but usefull to have the option to implement when you want something to have it. NWN2's attachment points opens up alot of possabilities when you start to think outside the box with it, but its complicated.

NWN1's animations incorporated into the model was a problem for some but nothing big and for me made it easier, though NWN2's seperate animation files is great for editing and adding them, but complicates things to much. Going with Granny for animations (just what does Granny actually give to NWN2's animations that a bog standard in house system wouldnt?) basicly nuetered the 3d modeling community for NWN2 due to no fully useable plugin until the released (then pulled) Expotron... and that was its prime problem, in making it difficult to make stuff for it, they almost killed it... but who knows maybe they wanted to hobble the modding community for buisness reasons.

And yes, why of why does my PC that should run NWN2 fine, crawl at 20-30 fps with most of the shadows turned on in the OC (yet things like half-life2 and UT3 that came out around the same time or earlier run faster on higher settings and look FAR better)... now I say the OC since with my own module I can get it running in the 40-60 range with shadows on through efficient tweaking of what does and doesnt cast shadows, and hiding complex things behind others to cut down on polys in view and create avenues of cool, rather than saturating every visable angle with umteen things (ie the damn market place in SoZ in Samarach **shakes his fist** , just what was all that mess for with only 3 merchants and only 2 of em useable).

That being said it really shouldnt run like it does... **cough** 2d portraits cutting fps by 15+ fps **cough** ???

Overall both engines let me make stuff, and i like to make stuff... each has its good bits and bad bits, but I like em both now that ive gotten to get to know em over the years... a bit like a friendship with a co-worker you didnt like to begin with but over time got to know em better. I just wish i could finish some modeling and release it... NWN2 and NWN1 can do comprable stuff to other games (then and now), it just takes work and some hand waving for distraction with a decent bit of talent to do so.

So to answer the question since I have a headache and want to go to sleep...

neither and both

Modifié par BigfootNZ, 09 septembre 2010 - 10:08 .

[DarthCaine]

NWN2 might have been the buggiest game I've ever player, but it's still far better than NWN1

[HoonDing]

I think they're about even, all things considered. Both games are marred by considerable flaws that make it hard for me to put one above the other.

[The Fred]

Shallina wrote...

You don't even see the char in BG.... there is a little pixel for the head, 2 little pixel for the arm. I am glad we moved on from those graphics.

Actually the animation sizes are variously about 20-30 by ~60 for tall races (obviously because you're moving, the actually used area changes, though admittedly the head stays the same size... it's a bit more than one pixel, though). Regardless, the point I was making was that sometimes, a quality 2D is better than something trying too hard to be 3D. So I can turn the camera around it and stuff, but it doesn't actually look like a person? It's like these new 3D movies which skimped on the 3D technology and ended up giving you dodgy visuals with occasional ghostly outlines and things. Some bits have a really cool depth, but is it worth it? To be honset, I'd rather just stick with watching it in glorious HD colour on a giant plasma screen TV with surround sound - in 2D.

Anyway, NWN and NWN2 are both 3D, and I think most people agree that NWN2's graphics, while not the most amazing and while horribly inefficient (as Bigfoot said, you don't really get what you pay for in terms of PC requirements), are better than NWN's chunky ones. It's a much newer game, though.

[ArtEChoke]

BigfootNZ wrote...
NWN1's animations incorporated into the model was a problem for some but nothing big and for me made it easier, though NWN2's seperate animation files is great for editing and adding them, but complicates things to much. Going with Granny for animations (just what does Granny actually give to NWN2's animations that a bog standard in house system wouldnt?) basicly nuetered the 3d modeling community for NWN2 due to no fully useable plugin until the released (then pulled) Expotron... and that was its prime problem, in making it difficult to make stuff for it, they almost killed it... but who knows maybe they wanted to hobble the modding community for buisness reasons.

I read that Granny recognizes the scale attribute and curve editing on export, whereas NWN1 does not. Having never built anything for NWN1 I can't validate that. I think they used it because it was already licensed for KOTOR2, but again, I can't prove it.

I agree, it may have been part of the plan to hobble modders. I think we're seeing the same thing with another notable moddable game out there. My guess is they like the free/viral word-of-mouth advertising they get out of providing the tools, but aren't nearly as enthusiastic about players actually making free stuff.

[Shallina]

Many DLC are just a sorry escuse for a weapon pack or armor pack. And those are usually among the first things done by modders. Your opignion Arterchoke isn't completly silly. Beceause every mod done by modders is something that can't be sold as DLC.

[The Fred]

ArtEChoke wrote...
I agree, it may have been part of the plan to hobble modders. I think we're seeing the same thing with another notable moddable game out there. My guess is they like the free/viral word-of-mouth advertising they get out of providing the tools, but aren't nearly as enthusiastic about players actually making free stuff.

It seems silly to me. Everything made by a modder adds value to the game, so when you buy it, you're also buying access to all of those other things. A game like this also has a massively long "lifespan" meaning they're more likely to retain a larger portion of the original community by the time they come to sell the inevitable expansions.

[dunniteowl]

I believe it was stated that Granny 3D was being used to save time. As a middle ware application and plugin to Max (which is what the devs were using) they didn't have to scratch build their own animation rigging and importer/exporter, saving them, I think the estimate was, about a year of developer man hours. It was something on that order.

I seriously doubt I could ever find the post that referenced that -- we're talking pre-release discussions here, so at least 4+ years ago. That, however is my general recollection.

dunniteowl

[MokahTGS]

  In truth, the real money in gaming is with consoles.  Toolsets do not fit into that equation.  DLC for the console market is the new frontier and what publishers want to support.  I do not believe there was a plan to hobble modders by either Bioware of Obsidian with the choice of Granny.  When that whole thing happened, Obsidian went out of their way to explain that it was a choice of development time.  Granny allowed them to put out a product faster.

As far as publishers, I do believe that they are not huge fans of the modding community, as far as a revenue stream.  For publishers you want one of two things attached to a game:  Subscribers or an active DLC buying community.

[ArtEChoke]

The Fred wrote...
It seems silly to me. Everything made by a modder adds value to the game, so when you buy it, you're also buying access to all of those other things. A game like this also has a massively long "lifespan" meaning they're more likely to retain a larger portion of the original community by the time they come to sell the inevitable expansions.

It doesn't seem silly. It is silly.

Yet, there it is - an observable trend.

Plans for DA2 toolset? Likelyhood of NWN3 custom content?

Also, sorry for throwing this thing off-topic. I was mainly just trying to answer to what Granny provided over the old animation method.

[Quixal]

MokahTGS wrote...
As far as publishers, I do believe that they are not huge fans of the modding community, as far as a revenue stream. For publishers you want one of two things attached to a game:  Subscribers or an active DLC buying community.

Agreed. Neither will be gotten out of me though. The trend guarantees I will be sticking with NWN and NWN2 for quite some time. And yes, I'm sure the publishers are crying all the way to the bank over that loss.

To answer the original question, yes.

[nicethugbert]

The Fred wrote...

ArtEChoke wrote...
I agree, it may have been part of the plan to hobble modders. I think we're seeing the same thing with another notable moddable game out there. My guess is they like the free/viral word-of-mouth advertising they get out of providing the tools, but aren't nearly as enthusiastic about players actually making free stuff.

It seems silly to me. Everything made by a modder adds value to the game, so when you buy it, you're also buying access to all of those other things. A game like this also has a massively long "lifespan" meaning they're more likely to retain a larger portion of the original community by the time they come to sell the inevitable expansions.

I agree.  But, I have the suspicion that publishers want a constant stream of block busters, with all the associated hype working in their favor.  It think publishers feel most comfortable with hype.  It's captivating and fleating.  It supresses intelligent thought and none is required to manage it.  When the drug wears off, they wave the next shiney all over again and the customers fall into line.  Meet the new shiney, same as the old shiney.

[nicethugbert]

MokahTGS wrote...

  In truth, the real money in gaming is with consoles.

I guess that's the price of sharing a market with children.

[The Fred]

I get more of an "Ooh, shiny" feeling from being told "You can do overland maps and party conversations. And GUI modding!". Maybe that's just me, though (and, I suspect, some of you...).



I much prefer PCs to consoles. You can just do so much more.

[dunniteowl]

OT regarding the money in Consoles, I just thought you'd all like to know that:
Akklaim
SquareSoft
CapCom
and there was a fourth to mention (dang it, I can't find the article) as well.
The reason I mention this as all 4 of these developers were or are primarily console only developers and they are all joining in the PC development fray as of about this time last year, IIRC.

While there is definitely money in Console gaming and it is harder to pirate the discs the landscape is changing and the profit potential of consoles over PCs is dwindling. I have to say, right up there with the title of this topic, the Consoles Vs PC story is even longer, more full of passion and vitriol and fraught with tons less factual data.
The first time I heard that PC gaming was on it's way out, I think was in 1989. Then the dirge was sung again in 1995 or so. Then I heard someone pronounce the poor, ailing PC gaming environment in I think 2003 or so. So about every 7 years or so.

The PC Gaming environment is in no more or less danger from consoles than it was 20 years ago. Trust me. If anything, the Console has grown more and more PC-like with each evolution (and the price has creeped up for the most part and not just because of inflation.)

However, last year, during one of the more lively topics regarding DA:O being on a console as well as PC, I came across a bit of that news about 4 Console Developer oriented companies announcing that they were jumping into PC game development. In all 4 cases, the upshot was: The market for PC games is, worldwide, about 5X larger than all the Console Markets combined.

So, don't be too ready to pound those nails down on the lid just yet.

And, again, I like both NWN and NWN2, I just like NWN2 better overall. Just to sort of attempt to steer this back onto a more topical track.

dunniteowl

Modifié par dunniteowl, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[The Fred]

Thing is that most people will want a PC for e-mail, word processing, work/school etc and all that "normal" stuff anyway, so why not just get a decent PC capable of running games (many games do not require huge requirements anyway) rather than a PC AND a console, especially when consoles seem to get outdated faster? A PC just seems more versetile. At least, that's always been my opinion (though I do have a PS2, for example). Anyway, I digress.

[kamalpoe]

dunniteowl wrote...
 (and the price has creeped up for the most part and not just because of inflation.)

I'd read the opposite, the price had dropped adjusted for inflation. (And not just because of the $800 in 1990 Neo Geo with it's $100 cartridges).

I think a shift to pc's is an attempt to capture some of that sweet, sweet MMO money. Developers are just following the money. After all, there's about 5 billion cell phones out there. Even my old non-smartphone cell phone had games, even rpgs, you could buy for it's about 150x150 pixel screen.

[Shallina]

Console are the future no one going to play on PC anymore.

And Blizzard is watching all those guy preaching doom and gloom while beeing the dev making the most money of them all without a single game on console.

Then you got NCSOFT as a solid second money maker, without a single game on consol as well.

When the number one and the number 2 are PC only and multiplayer only. It's easy to guess that stand alone games for console won't resist  much.

Modifié par Shallina, 10 septembre 2010 - 02:16 .